TOTALLY GEEKED!

karl271 · Guru

Wonder if you saw or heard about this.

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Wow, thanks for posting Karl.

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Apparently this letter was written one year after the shootings. It still holds true today, especially since it has been 15 years and our politicians are still pointing fingers and ignoring the right to prayer, except for the Muslims. All in the name of PC.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Amen!

Every word of it an absolute truth.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Okay...

flan

karl271 · Guru

Well, I am not saying I agree with every word he says, but I thought the Geeks here would like to see what his thoughts are. I am not sure it is as simple as he implies.

huskerbb · Guru

karl271 wrote:
Well, I am not saying I agree with every word he says, but I thought the Geeks here would like to see what his thoughts are. I am not sure it is as simple as he implies.

It's not--but the FACT is that we don't teach morality, anymore.

It never used to be challenged when the 10 commandments--including the one "Thou shalt not kill" were hung up in schools, courthouses, legislative assemblies, and many other places. It's not coincidence that as they have disappeared, our moral values have eroded.

We are more worried today about who we can have sex with--rather than teaching our kids that there is a universal morality, or at least there should be.

We spend most of our time teaching our kids that morality is up to every individual. Don't listen to anyone in authority, set your own morals. We've preached that over and over again, especially the last 20 or 30 years--and now we are surprised that has taken root?

Further, we want to blame objects for our failings to teach morality. Not only do we blame guns--we blame video games--and we've even go so far as to blame TOYS, or even food in what we construe to be the shape of a gun.

I've heard over and over again how people can have morals without God--but the fact is, when everyone gets to determine what morality is for themselves, then collectively, we have none and we teach none.

WYSIWYG · Guru

He wasn't right about this being the fault of prayer being taken out of schools, nor is it about us needing God. God is not required for Morality.

He was right about one thing though, the blame doesn't lie in the guns used. It lies in the person using them.

huskerbb · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
He wasn't right about this being the fault of prayer being taken out of schools, nor is it about us needing God. God is not required for Morality.

He was right about one thing though, the blame doesn't lie in the guns used. It lies in the person using them.

People like to spout that nonsense--but if you don't base morality on God--then who gets to decide what is "moral" or not?

Majority vote?

Everyone decides for themselves?

A dictator?

Some cult leader?

-- Edited by huskerbb on Tuesday 28th of October 2014 10:17:40 PM

WYSIWYG · Guru

"People like to spout that nonsense--but if you don't base morality on God--then who gets to decide what is "moral" or not?" - huskerbb

It's not nonsense. It's common sense. Believe it or not, not everyone believes in a God. And even those that do don't all believe in the same God. If a believer's God requires a Virgin Sacrifice, does killing a virgin suddenly become moral? That is what you are saying, isn't it? "If it comes from God it is automatically Moral".

I think Morality is based on the question of "Is it a kindness that you are doing, or is it an unkindness?"

huskerbb · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
"People like to spout that nonsense--but if you don't base morality on God--then who gets to decide what is "moral" or not?" - huskerbb

It's not nonsense. It's common sense. Believe it or not, not everyone believes in a God. And even those that do don't all believe in the same God. If a believer's God requires a Virgin Sacrifice, does killing a virgin suddenly become moral? That is what you are saying, isn't it? "If it comes from God it is automatically Moral".

I think Morality is based on the question of "Is it a kindness that you are doing, or is it an unkindness?"

Ok, YOU may think that--but a LOT of people do not.

So are you saying that everyone gets to decide for themselves?

Vette · Owl drink to that!

I definitely agree with the letter writer

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

WYSIWYG wrote:
He wasn't right about this being the fault of prayer being taken out of schools, nor is it about us needing God. God is not required for Morality.

He was right about one thing though, the blame doesn't lie in the guns used. It lies in the person using them.

I think his message was about society as a whole not taking care of one another. That leads to bigger problems. We don't take care of the mentally ill. That is one aspect of society we have been ignoring since we closed the MI facilities years ago. And now main streaming kids into public school who shouldn't be there.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
WYSIWYG wrote:
"People like to spout that nonsense--but if you don't base morality on God--then who gets to decide what is "moral" or not?" - huskerbb

It's not nonsense. It's common sense. Believe it or not, not everyone believes in a God. And even those that do don't all believe in the same God. If a believer's God requires a Virgin Sacrifice, does killing a virgin suddenly become moral? That is what you are saying, isn't it? "If it comes from God it is automatically Moral".

I think Morality is based on the question of "Is it a kindness that you are doing, or is it an unkindness?"
Ok, YOU may think that--but a LOT of people do not.
So are you saying that everyone gets to decide for themselves?

Actually, a LOT of people DO.

You choose to believe that anyone who does not believe in the Bible cannot be moral. You've been told time & time again that simply is not true.

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

I know what to do_sometimes wrote:
WYSIWYG wrote:
He wasn't right about this being the fault of prayer being taken out of schools, nor is it about us needing God. God is not required for Morality.

He was right about one thing though, the blame doesn't lie in the guns used. It lies in the person using them.
I think his message was about society as a whole not taking care of one another. That leads to bigger problems. We don't take care of the mentally ill. That is one aspect of society we have been ignoring since we closed the MI facilities years ago. And now main streaming kids into public school who shouldn't be there.

OMG! YES! And then they try to fix our education problems with this common core crap. Here's the problem - when you mainstream special needs kids and discipline problem kids, the teachers cannot focus on the best and brightest - they are having to focus on the neediest. That brings everyone down instead of lifting up.

And NOT everyone is good at every subject, so changing an entire curriculum for every student to try to make engineers is just damn dumb. Some kids are not meant to be engineers, they are meant to be writers, or lawyers, or historians, or managers. So, let's frustrate the hell out of them teaching them to be engineers when they have no inclination for that at all.

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
WYSIWYG wrote:
"People like to spout that nonsense--but if you don't base morality on God--then who gets to decide what is "moral" or not?" - huskerbb

It's not nonsense. It's common sense. Believe it or not, not everyone believes in a God. And even those that do don't all believe in the same God. If a believer's God requires a Virgin Sacrifice, does killing a virgin suddenly become moral? That is what you are saying, isn't it? "If it comes from God it is automatically Moral".

I think Morality is based on the question of "Is it a kindness that you are doing, or is it an unkindness?"
Ok, YOU may think that--but a LOT of people do not.
So are you saying that everyone gets to decide for themselves?
Actually, a LOT of people DO.
You choose to believe that anyone who does not believe in the Bible cannot be moral. You've been told time & time again that simply is not true.
flan

By people who are dead wrong.

WYSIWYG · Guru

"I think his message was about society as a whole not taking care of one another. That leads to bigger problems. We don't take care of the mentally ill. That is one aspect of society we have been ignoring since we closed the MI facilities years ago. And now main streaming kids into public school who shouldn't be there." - I know what to do_sometimes

While I agree with that sentiment 100%, that's not what the quoted message of his in the Original Post said. His little poem was very specific that it was because of the removal of God, and that God is what we need.

WYSIWYG · Guru

"OMG! YES! And then they try to fix our education problems with this common core crap. Here's the problem - when you mainstream special needs kids and discipline problem kids, the teachers cannot focus on the best and brightest - they are having to focus on the neediest. That brings everyone down instead of lifting up.

And NOT everyone is good at every subject, so changing an entire curriculum for every student to try to make engineers is just damn dumb. Some kids are not meant to be engineers, they are meant to be writers, or lawyers, or historians, or managers. So, let's frustrate the hell out of them teaching them to be engineers when they have no inclination for that at all." - Lawyerlady

Very well said, and very true.

WYSIWYG · Guru

"Ok, YOU may think that--but a LOT of people do not.

So are you saying that everyone gets to decide for themselves?" - huskerbb

I almost didn't respond to this, because I don't want to get in an argument with you, and I've been lurking long enough to know that's your pattern. After some thought however, I decided to address your second sentence.

No. They don't get to decide for themselves. The person that the action is directed against gets to.

One that gets to decide for themselves (like those that believe "It's moral if the God I believe in says so") could decide that Virgin Sacrifice is moral, because his God told him it was. It's my guess that the Virgin being Sacrificed would usually feel differently.

huskerbb · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
"Ok, YOU may think that--but a LOT of people do not.

So are you saying that everyone gets to decide for themselves?" - huskerbb

I almost didn't respond to this, because I don't want to get in an argument with you, and I've been lurking long enough to know that's your pattern. After some thought however, I decided to address your second sentence.

No. They don't get to decide for themselves. The person that the action is directed against gets to.

One that gets to decide for themselves (like those that believe "It's moral if the God I believe in says so") could decide that Virgin Sacrifice is moral, because his God told him it was. It's my guess that the Virgin being Sacrificed would usually feel differently.

So, if a dictator thinks that political speech is against his regime that makes such political speech "immoral" since it is directed at him?

No, that is NONSENSE. It's no more right than the reverse. We don't all have the same sensibilities.

Plus, what about issues such as p*rn. Plenty of people think that's immoral and it isn't "directed" at anyone--does that mean it is automatically "moral" and it should not be regulated in any way?

What about criminals? They may not think that jail time for such and such an offense is "moral", so does that mean jail should not then be a punishment for them?

That's a BS standard.

No matter which way you slice it--you are still allowing everyone to set their own morals. Society can not function that way.

WYSIWYG · Guru

"No matter which way you slice it--you are still allowing everyone to set their own morals. Society can not function that way" - huskerbb

We weren't talking about society. We were talking about morality. I actually agree with you on the society aspect though. That's why we have laws. Laws that are independent of religion.

huskerbb · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
"No matter which way you slice it--you are still allowing everyone to set their own morals. Society can not function that way" - huskerbb

We weren't talking about society. We were talking about morality. I actually agree with you on the society aspect though. That's why we have laws. Laws that are independent of religion.

BS. Most laws--at least those of criminal conduct--in this country are based on English Common Law, which has a good deal of the Ten Commandments in it.

Also, morality has everything to do with society.

huskerbb · Guru

Wow. I can't let that one go.

To say "laws are independent of religion" is flat out ignorant.

How in the heck do you suppose laws have been developed? Do you suppose they are exactly the same everywhere on the globe?

Bull.

Laws in Western Society have been heavily influenced by Christianity--just as laws in the Middle East have been heavily influenced by Islam.

If there is some morality apart from God that is common to all humankind--then those laws would be exactly the same. They aren't. We all know they are vastly different.

WYSIWYG · Guru

"Laws in Western Society have been heavily influenced by Christianity" - huskerbb

Are you certain it's not the other way around?

However, regardless of that, I can give you specific examples that prove society law is not religious in nature, even if it shares some similarities in some situations.

Murder. Against the law, pretty much everywhere. Even in places that have never heard of the Bible.
Theft. Against the law, pretty much everywhere. Even in places that follow religions other than the Bible.
Rape. Against the law, but the law wouldn't require the rapist to marry the victim, whereas in certain situations the Bible would (Deut 22:28-29).

huskerbb · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
"Laws in Western Society have been heavily influenced by Christianity" - huskerbb

Are you certain it's not the other way around?

However, regardless of that, I can give you specific examples that prove society law is not religious in nature, even if it shares some similarities in some situations.

Murder. Against the law, pretty much everywhere. Even in places that have never heard of the Bible.
Theft. Against the law, pretty much everywhere. Even in places that follow religions other than the Bible.
Rape. Against the law, but the law wouldn't require the rapist to marry the victim, whereas in certain situations the Bible would (Deut 22:28-29).

No, it's not the same "pretty much everywhere".

In some places in the Middle East, the rape victim is killed, honor killings are allowed and even prized.

It's NOT the same.

Laws didn't originate from nothing. They started in Western Society from somewhere. The "where" was the vestiges of the Roman Empire--and Christianity (which heavily influenced the later Roman Empire).

aergia · Regular

so HUsker 1 WYSIWYG 1
tie score, everyone wins, lets all have a snack and go skipping home.

huskerbb · Guru

aergia wrote:
so HUsker 1 WYSIWYG 1
tie score, everyone wins, lets all have a snack and go skipping home.

It's more like 3-0 my favor.

WYSIWYG · Guru

"No, it's not the same "pretty much everywhere".

In some places in the Middle East, the rape victim is killed, honor killings are allowed and even prized.

It's NOT the same." - huskerbb

I limited my 'pretty much the same everywhere' to Murder and Theft. And yes, across most of the world, Murder and Theft are against the law, regardless of which religion is in the majority in any given country.

Rape I didn't say was 'pretty much the same everywhere'. I limited that comparison to societies that are predominantly Christian, because I specifically wanted to mention that the punishment for rape, in certain situations, in Christianity is marriage. Marriage is never a penalty for rape in the laws of society.

Anyway, as I said, I don't want to argue with you. I only relax and skim here while winding down from a hard day. So, you have your belief, and I'll have mine, and we shall go our separate ways on this thread.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
aergia wrote:
so HUsker 1 WYSIWYG 1
tie score, everyone wins, lets all have a snack and go skipping home.
It's more like 3-0 my favor.

flan

huskerbb · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
"No, it's not the same "pretty much everywhere".

In some places in the Middle East, the rape victim is killed, honor killings are allowed and even prized.

It's NOT the same." - huskerbb

I limited my 'pretty much the same everywhere' to Murder and Theft. And yes, across most of the world, Murder and Theft are against the law, regardless of which religion is in the majority in any given country.

Rape I didn't say was 'pretty much the same everywhere'. I limited that comparison to societies that are predominantly Christian, because I specifically wanted to mention that the punishment for rape, in certain situations, in Christianity is marriage. Marriage is never a penalty for rape in the laws of society.

Anyway, as I said, I don't want to argue with you. I only relax and skim here while winding down from a hard day. So, you have your belief, and I'll have mine, and we shall go our separate ways on this thread.

It doesn't matter. Laws didn't just spring from nothing. The basis for laws in the Western world can be traced in large part to the ten Commandments. It's a fact. Western Civ. 101.

WYSIWYG · Guru

I think you are confused, huskerbb.

It is my understanding that the basis for the laws of Western civilization is Roman Law that pre-dates Christianity. That Christianity also embraces some of the concepts is not surprising though, because the laws that they have in common have to do with harm to others in one way or another.

huskerbb · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
I think you are confused, huskerbb.

It is my understanding that the basis for the laws of Western civilization is Roman Law that pre-dates Christianity. That Christianity also embraces some of the concepts is not surprising though, because the laws that they have in common have to do with harm to others in one way or another.

Your understanding is wrong--or, at least, incomplete.

Plus, the last hundred plus years of the Roman Empire saw Christianity rise to become not only the official religion of the empire, but to heavily influence all aspects of the Roman World--including the laws.

WYSIWYG · Guru

As I said earlier, you have your belief, I have mine.

huskerbb · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
As I said earlier, you have your belief, I have mine.

It's not "belief". You are ignoring well known historical facts. Western Civ. 101.

WYSIWYG · Guru

I am not ignoring any well known historical facts.

Believe what you want to believe, I shall do the same.

huskerbb · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
I am not ignoring any well known historical facts.

Believe what you want to believe, I shall do the same.

Again, it's not about "belief". You are ignoring historical FACTS.

You can be the one who pretends the sun revolves around the earth if you want to.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Yeah the rise of Christianity concurred with the Roman empire. Wow.

Blankie · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
"People like to spout that nonsense--but if you don't base morality on God--then who gets to decide what is "moral" or not?" - huskerbb

It's not nonsense. It's common sense. Believe it or not, not everyone believes in a God. And even those that do don't all believe in the same God. If a believer's God requires a Virgin Sacrifice, does killing a virgin suddenly become moral? That is what you are saying, isn't it? "If it comes from God it is automatically Moral".

I think Morality is based on the question of "Is it a kindness that you are doing, or is it an unkindness?"

This.

And religious intolerance breeds a whole lot of unkindness.

Just watch it happen on this thread. Or any of the other religious threads on this board.

Blankie · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
aergia wrote:
so HUsker 1 WYSIWYG 1
tie score, everyone wins, lets all have a snack and go skipping home.
It's more like 3-0 my favor.

flan

Wait, don't go home. Don't close the thread. They were talking about kindness. And I need to see how husker uses this thread to prove how kind he is. He's just getting warmed up. smile

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Blankie wrote:
WYSIWYG wrote:
"People like to spout that nonsense--but if you don't base morality on God--then who gets to decide what is "moral" or not?" - huskerbb

It's not nonsense. It's common sense. Believe it or not, not everyone believes in a God. And even those that do don't all believe in the same God. If a believer's God requires a Virgin Sacrifice, does killing a virgin suddenly become moral? That is what you are saying, isn't it? "If it comes from God it is automatically Moral".

I think Morality is based on the question of "Is it a kindness that you are doing, or is it an unkindness?"
This.
And religious intolerance breeds a whole lot of unkindness.
Just watch it happen on this thread. Or any of the other religious threads on this board.

But, Blankie, it's perfectly fine to mock non-believers...

flan

Blankie · Guru

flan327 wrote:
Blankie wrote:
WYSIWYG wrote:
"People like to spout that nonsense--but if you don't base morality on God--then who gets to decide what is "moral" or not?" - huskerbb

It's not nonsense. It's common sense. Believe it or not, not everyone believes in a God. And even those that do don't all believe in the same God. If a believer's God requires a Virgin Sacrifice, does killing a virgin suddenly become moral? That is what you are saying, isn't it? "If it comes from God it is automatically Moral".

I think Morality is based on the question of "Is it a kindness that you are doing, or is it an unkindness?"
This.
And religious intolerance breeds a whole lot of unkindness.
Just watch it happen on this thread. Or any of the other religious threads on this board.

But, Blankie, it's perfectly fine to mock non-believers...
flan

Non-believers AND believers get mocked. Heck, I'm a believer, but I don't believe The Right Way.

So anyone who isn't in The Right Way Club is going to get mocked.

Sure glad I don't belong to that club.

I think God must be very amused at what some people say and do in His/Her name.

-- Edited by Blankie on Wednesday 5th of November 2014 07:08:08 AM

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Blankie wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Blankie wrote:
WYSIWYG wrote:
"People like to spout that nonsense--but if you don't base morality on God--then who gets to decide what is "moral" or not?" - huskerbb

It's not nonsense. It's common sense. Believe it or not, not everyone believes in a God. And even those that do don't all believe in the same God. If a believer's God requires a Virgin Sacrifice, does killing a virgin suddenly become moral? That is what you are saying, isn't it? "If it comes from God it is automatically Moral".

I think Morality is based on the question of "Is it a kindness that you are doing, or is it an unkindness?"
This.
And religious intolerance breeds a whole lot of unkindness.
Just watch it happen on this thread. Or any of the other religious threads on this board.

But, Blankie, it's perfectly fine to mock non-believers...
flan
Non-believers AND believers get mocked. Heck, I'm a believer, but I don't believe The Right Way.
So anyone who isn't in The Right Way Club is going to get mocked.
Sure glad I don't belong to that club.
I think God must be very amused at what some people say and do in His/Her name.

-- Edited by Blankie on Wednesday 5th of November 2014 07:08:08 AM

I think more saddened than amused.

flan

chillepeppa · Regular

As sorry as I am for this man's loss, I unfortunately fail see the connection between religion in schools and bullying and/or mental illnesses.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

chillepeppa wrote:
As sorry as I am for this man's loss, I unfortunately fail see the connection between religion in schools and bullying and/or mental illnesses.

Oh, now you've done it... evileye

flan

WYSIWYG · Guru

"Yeah the rise of Christianity concurred with the Roman empire. Wow." - Lady Gaga Snerd

I don't believe Christianity concurred with the Roman Empire. Roman Law pre-dates Christianity, which is what I stated.