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Post Info TOPIC: A disingenuous defense of the Confederate flag


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A disingenuous defense of the Confederate flag
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A disingenuous defense of the Confederate flag

June 19, 2015 by JONATHAN BERNSTEIN, Bloomberg View /

A Confederate battle flag adorning a statue in

The massacre in Charleston, South Carolina, has revived discussion about the Confederate battle flag and its meaning. Liberals find it easy to condemn it, but Philip Klein, writing in the Washington Examiner, is correct: Conservatives should be even more hostile to the Confederacy and the Jim Crow South and its symbols.

"The invocation of 'states rights' among those waving the Confederate flag while fighting for the evils of slavery and segregation has been devastating to the cause of limited government.

"Not only were the institutions themselves an affront to liberty, but in fighting to defeat the institutions, the federal government claimed more power. And to this day, when any conservative tries to make a principled argument in favor of returning more power to the states, they have to grapple with the fact that for many Americans, such arguments are tainted by their historical association with slavery and segregation."

 

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Yes. The debate about the level of government that is theoretically most appropriate to handle particular policy areas was obviously unimportant next to the moral imperative of eliminating state-sponsored bigotry and oppression. And those who argued against federal government involvement were morally obtuse or, more likely, simply disingenuous when they talked about "states' rights." Moreover, there was a democratic imperative at stake, separate from the moral one: An apartheid state in which basic political rights are restricted to only some groups is a failed democracy.

All of which, as Klein says, poisoned the case for meaningful state action.

I'll add two points.

Liberals, too, have suffered from the lack of federalist arguments. Klein believes that strong states will enforce what conservatives considered "limited government," but liberals might want strong states to engage in the kinds of active experimentation that liberals value. Of course, some of that happens now: the $15 minimum wage or laws barring employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. But liberals generally don't trust the states, and can't quite accept that there could be anything that California or New York might want that might not be appropriate for Alabama or Wyoming.

More important than either liberal or conservative arguments is the democratic reason for federalism. At least in part, the Revolution and the Constitution were driven by the idea of enabling every citizen to participate in politics. The Framers were wrong about who counted as a citizen, but they were correct about empowering the citizenry. However, Madison was also correct in his radical insights about large polities and democracy: that previous claims that democracies must be small had it backward, and that an extended republic, by reducing the chances of oppressive majorities, would have a better chance of thriving. Representation, a relatively recent invention in the 18th century, would allow his extended republic to work.

And yet, in a huge extended republic of more than 300 million people, this idea still carries the danger that the only thing available for most of us is representation -- and that being represented, however good and important it may be, still falls short of meaningful participation in politics.

Federalism makes up the difference, as long as state and local governments have important decisions at stake. As for participation, there are about 500,000 elected officials in the U.S., not to mention the people who work for those elected officials, and the professionals and amateurs who attempt to influence them. That's an enormous army of political action.

To be sure, this creates a natural tension: Although smaller jurisdictions make political action possible for many, they also sacrifice the large size that Madison said made oppression of the minority less likely. What's harder to judge is when that oppression is so egregious that the national government must step in, though one rule of thumb is that anything that interferes with democracy (by, say, disenfranchising people) is a good place to start.

This still leaves plenty of room for argument about which level of government should do which tasks. As far as I can see, there's nothing at stake for democracy in how we answer those questions; indeed, having such things to fight over is itself perfectly in line with democracy.

As Klein points out, this debate over federalism and the proper division (or overlap) of responsibilities between different levels of government has been tainted by the monstrous legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. That is yet another reason (beyond the obvious moral ones) for all of us -- conservatives, liberals and any supporters of healthy democracy -- should oppose the display of bigotry's symbols.

Jonathan Bernstein is a Bloomberg View columnist covering U.S. politics

 



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utter bullspit--have many ancestors who fought for the Confederacy in the civil war--the flag is not offensive to me but rather evokes the pride of their service and their sacrifice for what they believed in--ironically, they were fighting FOR limiting government, not against it--history isn't always ( nor can it be revised to be ) pc--grow up and deal with it

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I heart you Burns...

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Begins slow clap.....

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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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I'm still amazed at the amount of people that think the civil war was about nothing but slavery. Some people need to actually take a class or read a book.

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Yep. You said it.

Really, the slavery issue was an after thought.

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lilyofcourse wrote:

Yep. You said it.

Really, the slavery issue was an after thought.


 I wouldn't say that.  Slavery was the salt. 



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The whole thing began to keep the confederacy from breaking away, becoming its own country.

Slavery became the emotional grease that helped fuel the war.

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The confederacy was about State's rights - they felt the federal government was becoming too powerful and over-reaching. There were many issues that caused a low boil in the southern states for years, including laws and tariffs that benefited the industrial north while costing the south. Slavery, and the fear that that Lincoln would tell the Southern states they could no longer have it, was the salt that caused the low boil to boil over. The Civil War was about State's rights and the limitation of the federal government telling them what they could do. The main issue driving that division was the federal government's attempts to limit slavery. So, no - slavery was not an afterthought. But it was not the "reason", either.

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Lawyerlady wrote:

The confederacy was about State's rights - they felt the federal government was becoming too powerful and over-reaching. There were many issues that caused a low boil in the southern states for years, including laws and tariffs that benefited the industrial north while costing the south. Slavery, and the fear that that Lincoln would tell the Southern states they could no longer have it, was the salt that caused the low boil to boil over. The Civil War was about State's rights and the limitation of the federal government telling them what they could do. The main issue driving that division was the federal government's attempts to limit slavery. So, no - slavery was not an afterthought. But it was not the "reason", either.


 Said by an intelligent Yankee. Thank you.



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burns07 wrote:


utter bullspit--have many ancestors who fought for the Confederacy in the civil war--the flag is not offensive to me but rather evokes the pride of their service and their sacrifice for what they believed in--ironically, they were fighting FOR limiting government, not against it--history isn't always ( nor can it be revised to be ) pc--grow up and deal with it


 OMG! The south wanted to keep people as slaves. What is wrong with you people.



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Bonny22Pye wrote:
burns07 wrote:


utter bullspit--have many ancestors who fought for the Confederacy in the civil war--the flag is not offensive to me but rather evokes the pride of their service and their sacrifice for what they believed in--ironically, they were fighting FOR limiting government, not against it--history isn't always ( nor can it be revised to be ) pc--grow up and deal with it


 OMG! The south wanted to keep people as slaves. What is wrong with you people.


Yes, Bonny - that was bad.  But it was NOT the reason the confederacy was started.  The confederacy was actually started while the north still had slaves.

And the north only got enlightened when they no longer needed slave labor because they had a bunch of Irish and other very poor European immigrants that they could work to death for such little pay that even the children of the families had to work just to be able to eat. 



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And quite frankly - people act as if the north was so much better. They treated blacks horribly. Ohio wouldn't let blacks live there unless they could prove they were free and post a $500 bond, they wouldn't let them vote, hold public office, or testify in court against a white man. Indiana banned blacks. Some states CHANGED the laws to take away the vote of free black men or restrict it more than whites - requiring blacks to own property to vote in some places, or not letting them vote at all. They were treated no better than slaves, authorities would do nothing when white mobs would kill them for being "uppity". As I said - people are sadly lacking in true history education and simply buy into the notion that the civil war was all about slavery. No, it wasn't. Blacks were not important enough to start a war about just because of them. The racial history of this country is appalling all around.

So, please do not ignore history. Read more - www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2957.html




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To further show that it wasn't all about slavery, the Emancipation Proclamation ONLY freed slaves in the "rebellious" states. Slave states that had stayed loyal to the union did not have their slaves freed by that well known historical proclamation. Ironically - it did NOT free the slaves in states controlled by the North. The freeing of the confederate slaves was a military tactic allowing those freed slaves from confederate states to come fight for the Union.

The proclamation declared, "all persons held as slaves within any States, or designated part of the State, the people whereof shall be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free."

 

So, the slaves that took the longest to be freed were the northern slaves. 



-- Edited by Lawyerlady on Saturday 20th of June 2015 06:21:52 AM

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There was even a political argument going on in the North among two factions of Democrats to allow the South to keep slavery in exchange for agreeing to remain part of the Union and stopping the war.

I love the way some people never get taught the truth about the Civil War. It was UGLY all around.

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