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Post Info TOPIC: For ohfour-Tennessee courts reverse ban on 'Mother' and 'Father'


Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

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For ohfour-Tennessee courts reverse ban on 'Mother' and 'Father'
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I was watching this the other day.  Today I saw a follow up.  Basically TN decided to change the birth certificates to parent one and parent two.  They said they specifically changed it to accommodate gay marriage.  Here's what happened.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/08/19/tennessee-courts-reverse-ban-on-mother-and-father.html

On Tuesday afternoon I told you that court officials in Tennessee had replaced the words “Mother” and “Father” on court documents with the gender-neutral terms “Parent 1” and “Parent 2”.

A few hours after my column was published the Tennessee Administrative Office of the Courts (AOC) announced they were reversing the policy.

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 A court spokesperson told me they had made the change to more gender-neutral language in the aftermath of the Supreme Court’s decision to redefine marriage.

That decision infuriated thousands of readers -- including one mother who said she did not endure ten hours of labor to be called “Parent 1.”

After fielding lots of angry phone calls it didn’t take long for the court to realize they had stepped into a great big pile of Number 2.

Here’s the statement I received from the AOC:

“After receiving feedback regarding a recent change made to the permanent parenting plan form, the AOC has reviewed the procedures and determined that, before making any changes to the form, the AOC should consult with the Domestic Committee of the Tennessee Judicial Conference. We have reverted to the previous form and the Committee has been notified.”

In laymen’s terms --  Mommy and Daddy are once again permissible.

That’s good news for folks like State Rep. Dan Howell, of Cleveland, Tenn.  He was livid when he learned the state had dropped ‘Mother’ and ‘Father.’

“I was dumbfounded,” he told me. “I thought: ‘how could this happen in a state that has voted by more than 80 percent to define marriage as between one man and one woman’?”

Howell was in the process of rounding up a posse of fellow legislators to stop the court -- when the decision was reversed.

I was originally alerted to the gender-neutral parenting documents by Kendra Armstrong, a family law attorney in Memphis and one of my longtime readers.

“It’s absolutely ludicrous to make the term ‘Mother’ and ‘Father’ obsolete,” Armstrong told me. “Quite frankly, the terms ‘Parent 1’ and ‘Parent 2’ seem more offensive than ‘Mother’ and ‘Father.’ It’s implying that one parent is the first parent and the other parent is secondary.”

Armstrong said she was incredulous when her paralegal discovered the document changes -- shocked that something like this would happen in, of all places, the Bible Belt.

“This is political correctness gone absolutely amuck,” she told me. “It’s just ridiculous.”

What happened yesterday is proof positive that when patriots stand together and fight back against the cultural jihadists -- we can facilitate change.

Well done, folks.



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Hooker

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I swear, I LOVE my state! We really dont put up with all the PC crap...

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Glad to see they stood up for what is right.

I keep thinking one of these days it'll say Thing 1 and Thing 2.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

Glad to see they stood up for what is right.

I keep thinking one of these days it'll say Thing 1 and Thing 2.


Did I miss something? I don't remember anything indicating that Thing 1 and Thing 2 had a sexual relationship. 

What would they call their babies?



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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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Well, I think the reasoning is right - you are placing a parent in the No. 2 position and that's not really very nice. And again - until the courts have sorted out exactly what custody rights are going to be, this is really a non-issue.

You know - Baby J's first birth certificate didn't even indicate a father or a place where one should be (I know some used to put "unknown" in the father spot when mothers were unmarried), but then when I had it reissued, it named both DH and I.

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Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

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So does her birth certificate now read that you are her bio mom and dad. Well DH dad.

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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

So does her birth certificate now read that you are her bio mom and dad. Well DH dad.


 Yep.  It now appears I gave birth in Wyoming when I have never stepped foot in the state! 



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Okay. I was just curious about that!

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Lawyerlady wrote:

Well, I think the reasoning is right - you are placing a parent in the No. 2 position and that's not really very nice. And again - until the courts have sorted out exactly what custody rights are going to be, this is really a non-issue.

You know - Baby J's first birth certificate didn't even indicate a father or a place where one should be (I know some used to put "unknown" in the father spot when mothers were unmarried), but then when I had it reissued, it named both DH and I.


 Do you know who Baby J's bio dad is?  I'm just nosey.



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Lexxy wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

Well, I think the reasoning is right - you are placing a parent in the No. 2 position and that's not really very nice. And again - until the courts have sorted out exactly what custody rights are going to be, this is really a non-issue.

You know - Baby J's first birth certificate didn't even indicate a father or a place where one should be (I know some used to put "unknown" in the father spot when mothers were unmarried), but then when I had it reissued, it named both DH and I.


 Do you know who Baby J's bio dad is?  I'm just nosey.


 I know his name and I've seen a picture.  However, his name is so common it might as well be "John Smith".  My lawyer had a fit trying to track him down.



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LOL So I'm not the only one who's nosy!

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Seriously - I know 3 other men with his name. I was tempted to ask them to sign off on the papers. LOL.

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Lawyerlady wrote:

Seriously - I know 3 other men with his name. I was tempted to ask them to sign off on the papers. LOL.


 



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So he signed off & can't pop up some time in the future. That is good.

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Lexxy wrote:

So he signed off & can't pop up some time in the future. That is good.


 Nope.  Never found him.  But he can't come back.  He knew where she was, or at least how to find her and never came around.  My mother spoke to him several times after my sister died.  As the judge said when discussing the lengths gone to to find him for over 2 years - it is a two way street.  The judge terminated any potential parental rights.  He actually doesn't have any - both Wisconsin and Michigan have putative father registries and he didn't register and his name is not on the birth certificate. 



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I'm glad TN went with science and not the pc culture nut cases.

After all, it takes a male sperm and a female egg to make a baby. You can't rewrite science to change that fact.

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just Czech wrote:

I'm glad TN went with science and not the pc culture nut cases.

After all, it takes a male sperm and a female egg to make a baby. You can't rewrite science to change that fact.


 Some people try to rewrite science all the time.



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just Czech wrote:

I'm glad TN went with science and not the pc culture nut cases.

After all, it takes a male sperm and a female egg to make a baby. You can't rewrite science to change that fact.


Cloning humans hasn't become standard yet. 



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ed11563 wrote:
just Czech wrote:

I'm glad TN went with science and not the pc culture nut cases.

After all, it takes a male sperm and a female egg to make a baby. You can't rewrite science to change that fact.


Cloning humans hasn't become standard yet. 


 They have been succesful in creating embryos from two mammalian eggs.

Now they can also make male sperm cells from female skin cells. They've also done a successful womb transplant in Sweden.

Things are getting interesting.



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And yet, there is no child. Remember Dolly? She was all kinds of fvcked up.

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No child that we KNOW about.

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Oh, if there was a child, we would know about it....when the first test tube baby was born, it was ALL over the news.....

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Ohfour wrote:

Oh, if there was a child, we would know about it....when the first test tube baby was born, it was ALL over the news.....


 They wanted it all over the news. Human cloning has been banned, however. You're not going to hear about it on FOX or CNN.

I'm sure they're doing it, though. You think some places like North Korea or China aren't experimenting with it? Banning something has never stopped anyone.



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I wouldn't be surprised if it's been done.

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weltschmerz wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
just Czech wrote:

I'm glad TN went with science and not the pc culture nut cases.

After all, it takes a male sperm and a female egg to make a baby. You can't rewrite science to change that fact.


Cloning humans hasn't become standard yet. 


 They have been succesful in creating embryos from two mammalian eggs.

Now they can also make male sperm cells from female skin cells. They've also done a successful womb transplant in Sweden.

Things are getting interesting.


 Just b/c something might be able to be done does not mean it SHOULD be done.



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The End of Males? Mouse Made to Reproduce Without Sperm

Bijal P. Trivedi
for National Geographic News
April 21, 2004

Dads, in the mammalian branch of the animal kingdom, are often out of the loop when it comes to producing progeny. After that initial contribution of sperm, they are excluded from pregnancy and are all but superfluous even after birth, when nurturing falls to Mom. Now Japanese scientists have streamlined reproduction even further—they have eliminated fathers entirely.

Scientists led by Tomohiro Kono, a biologist at the Tokyo University of Agriculture, have created baby mice without the introduction of sperm. They combined the genetic contents of two mouse eggs—one of which had been genetically altered—to produce a live mouse that reached adulthood and reproduced.

 

The results are published in the April 22 issue of the journal Nature and could have profound implications for disease and the role of males in reproduction.

Amphibians, fish, and insects are able to reproduce from eggs alone—a process called parthenogenesis. But under normal circumstances mammals, including humans and mice, cannot. They need genetic contributions from mom and dad.

"The goal of our study was to discover why sperm and eggs were required for development in mammals," Kono said.

Imprinting Eggs and Sperm

During normal sexual reproduction, mammals inherit two copies of each gene—one set from mom, the other from dad. It was thought that both components were essential, because a subset of genes, described as "imprinted" genes, behave differently depending on whether they were delivered via sperm or egg. Both are needed to produce healthy offspring.

The Japanese team believed that they could use two eggs to create a viable mouse embryo. The challenge was to get the imprinted genes in one of the eggs to behave as if the genes had come from a sperm.

"Imprints" are chemical additions to the DNA—they don't alter genetic code but block various genes from turning off or on. The critical point is that only one copy of an imprinted gene should be active—if the mother's copy is on, the father's copy is off, or vice versa.

To get genes in one of the two eggs to "act like genes in a sperm," Kono's team had to find a way to switch off the maternal imprints.

Tricking the Embryo

The scientists couldn't use eggs from adult mice since adult eggs are already imprinted. If two such eggs were combined the product would be an embryo with a poorly developed placenta. The embryo would die during early development.



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The End of Males? Mouse Made to Reproduce Without Sperm

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The immature eggs from newborn mice, however, have not yet been given a maternal stamp.

In previously published studies, the Japanese researchers combined a mature egg from an adult with an immature egg from a newborn. They discovered that the embryo lived longer than any previous mouse embryo created without sperm—more than halfway through gestation.

But why could the embryo not make it all the way?

Kono's team speculated that imprinted genes were somehow killing the mice embryos prematurely. The team focused on two such genes. One, called IGF2, is an essential gene for the growth and development of the fetus and is only turned on in the sperm. The other, called H19, turns off the IGF2 gene in eggs.

The scientists kept the mice alive by genetically altering the immature egg. They removed the "off switch" (H19), allowing the IGF2 gene to turn on, just as it would have if it had come from the sperm.

"Combining the mature egg with the immature egg, which had been genetically tweaked to produce IGF2, tricked the embryo into believing it had received genes from both a mother and father," said Marisa Bartolomei, a geneticist specializing in imprinted genes at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.

Risky Business

Kono and his team believe that just turning on the IGF2 gene may have caused a ripple effect—effectively restoring all the other paternal imprints in the immature egg. This enabled the embryo to complete development and eventually reproduce.

"What is most exciting and unexpected is that turning on a single gene was able to trigger changes in the immature egg that gave all the genetic material a paternal imprint," said Patrick Lam, an embryologist at the University of Sydney in Wentworthville, Australia. Lam co-authored a commentary on Kono's report.

But producing a healthy mouse by this approach was difficult.

Kono and his team produced 457 reconstructed eggs—each containing genetic material from a mature egg and an immature IGF2-producing egg. These hybrid eggs were then grown until each formed a ball of cells, called a blastocyst. Three hundred and seventy-one blastocysts survived, and these were used to impregnate surrogate females.

A total of ten live pups survived gestation. Of these, only two survived outside the womb. One, named Kaguya, lived to adulthood, mated with a male, and produced a litter of pups in the normal way.

This is a technically extraordinary piece of work, Bartolomei said. "It has really pushed the field forward."

No Need for Men?

Could Kono's results be used to render men obsolete?

"Imprinting is pretty complicated," said Randy Jirtle, a geneticist specializing in imprinting at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. Genes can be imprinted in some tissues but not others. It can also vary from species to species.

There are about 80 to 90 known imprinted genes in mice. Those involved in cognitive processes or nurturing behavior may not have been properly imprinted in Kaguya. These effects may not be obvious just from studying this one mouse.

"There is no doubt that this result is amazing," Jirtle added. "But just because this mouse is walking around on the Earth does not mean that the animal is normal."

What's more, there is no guarantee that what worked in mice will work in humans.

Producing a mouse from two eggs is a very risky and very inefficient procedure—only two embryos survived of 371 that were implanted in surrogate mothers.

"The success rate is less than 1 percent—who knows what went wrong with the other 99 percent," Lam said. "Like cloning, it would be completely unethical to try such experiments in humans."

Until the role of imprinted genes—many of which have been implicated in disease—is better understood, it is safe to say that Dad is still an essential part of reproduction.



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So it needs an egg from a newborn.

A newborn created from sperm and an egg because two mature eggs won't work.

So who is going to harvest eggs from a newborn? How would you harvest eggs from a newborn?



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After all, it takes a male sperm and a female egg to make a baby. You can't rewrite science to change that fact.
- Just Czech

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I agree that it takes a male sperm and a female egg to create a child. I don't think that's in dispute. But didn't Lawyerlady basically just say that science was rewritten in the case of BabyJ? Science says BioMom is the one that actually gave birth. BabyJ's current birth certificate doesn't list BioMom though, it lists Lawyerlady.

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Um, LL went through a legal adoption.

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And the original is still out there. It hasn't been erased from history.


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LL, if I may ask, does DD know who her bio parents are, and if so, at what age did you tell her?

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WYSIWYG wrote:

After all, it takes a male sperm and a female egg to make a baby. You can't rewrite science to change that fact.
- Just Czech

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I agree that it takes a male sperm and a female egg to create a child. I don't think that's in dispute. But didn't Lawyerlady basically just say that science was rewritten in the case of BabyJ? Science says BioMom is the one that actually gave birth. BabyJ's current birth certificate doesn't list BioMom though, it lists Lawyerlady.


No, she did not say science was rewritten in BabyJ's case. This is an adoption, not a rewriting of the fundamental laws of science.

 



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lilyofcourse wrote:

So it needs an egg from a newborn.

A newborn created from sperm and an egg because two mature eggs won't work.

So who is going to harvest eggs from a newborn? How would you harvest eggs from a newborn?


I'm sure PP can provide those eggs. evileye 



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FNW wrote:

LL, if I may ask, does DD know who her bio parents are, and if so, at what age did you tell her?


 I've told her about her "first" mother a couple of times - but she forgets.  She has an older sister so keeping it a secret is not really an option nor is it really necessary in this case.  We are not going to talk about her bio-dad until she's much older and asks.

I told her that her first mother died - that she was hit by a car, and she just asked "Was she walking in the road?"  Smart kid.



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just Czech wrote:
WYSIWYG wrote:

After all, it takes a male sperm and a female egg to make a baby. You can't rewrite science to change that fact.
- Just Czech

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I agree that it takes a male sperm and a female egg to create a child. I don't think that's in dispute. But didn't Lawyerlady basically just say that science was rewritten in the case of BabyJ? Science says BioMom is the one that actually gave birth. BabyJ's current birth certificate doesn't list BioMom though, it lists Lawyerlady.


No, she did not say science was rewritten in BabyJ's case. This is an adoption, not a rewriting of the fundamental laws of science.

 


 Yeah - that is the perfect example of why I ignore his posts.



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Lawyerlady wrote:
FNW wrote:

LL, if I may ask, does DD know who her bio parents are, and if so, at what age did you tell her?


 I've told her about her "first" mother a couple of times - but she forgets.  She has an older sister so keeping it a secret is not really an option nor is it really necessary in this case.  We are not going to talk about her bio-dad until she's much older and asks.

I told her that her first mother died - that she was hit by a car, and she just asked "Was she walking in the road?"  Smart kid.


Thank you for answering.

My uncle fathered a child with his wife who promptly left him.  He did not have much money, but ex-wife agreed to not go after him for support (they were married only a few weeks) if he agreed not to try to see his daughter.  Later, he fathered her son.  Same arrangement.  In the last couple of years I have been in touch with his daughter.  My uncle passed away 15 or so years ago.  It seems ex-wife denied my uncle's paternity of the boy but the girl was aware of her father's existence.  Coincidentally, the boy (now a man) lives near me now.  

I'm always curious as to how people handle these situations and what affect it has on the children.   I know in some situations it's best the child never knows their bio parent, but wondered how something like that could be handled in the best interests of the child.



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My mom was adopted and she said she was always told the truth. But it was a closed adoption so she didn't know about her birth mother. But she always knew she was adopted.

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I have a friend who was adopted. He was the first baby adopted in 1964 in the U.S. and made the newspaper. His mother clipped and framed the article.

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My mom was adopted in the US long before 1964

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FNW wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
FNW wrote:

LL, if I may ask, does DD know who her bio parents are, and if so, at what age did you tell her?


 I've told her about her "first" mother a couple of times - but she forgets.  She has an older sister so keeping it a secret is not really an option nor is it really necessary in this case.  We are not going to talk about her bio-dad until she's much older and asks.

I told her that her first mother died - that she was hit by a car, and she just asked "Was she walking in the road?"  Smart kid.


Thank you for answering.

My uncle fathered a child with his wife who promptly left him.  He did not have much money, but ex-wife agreed to not go after him for support (they were married only a few weeks) if he agreed not to try to see his daughter.  Later, he fathered her son.  Same arrangement.  In the last couple of years I have been in touch with his daughter.  My uncle passed away 15 or so years ago.  It seems ex-wife denied my uncle's paternity of the boy but the girl was aware of her father's existence.  Coincidentally, the boy (now a man) lives near me now.  

I'm always curious as to how people handle these situations and what affect it has on the children.   I know in some situations it's best the child never knows their bio parent, but wondered how something like that could be handled in the best interests of the child.


 I don't expect she'll ever know her bio-dad.  She might want to hunt down her siblings, though, I understand he had lots of kids - none of which he supported. 



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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

My mom was adopted in the US long before 1964


 Apparently he was the first one of that year.



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FNW wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

My mom was adopted in the US long before 1964


 Apparently he was the first one of that year.


 Oh, lol.  I thought you were saying he was the first ever adopted.  Color me confused.



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FNW


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I realized the confusion! And I'm assuming it was 1964 since he was born in November 1963. I read the article she framed, but it's been years. His mother has since passed away.

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Um, LL went through a legal adoption.
- Nobody Just Nobody

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I inferred as much, based on her post. How she came to be BabyJ's mother isn't what I was addressing though. Her being on the Birth Certificate was the point I was talking about.

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This is an adoption, not a rewriting of the fundamental laws of science.
- just Czech

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True. It's not a rewriting of teh fundamental laws of science. It's a rewriting of the facts of the child's birth. Didn't Lawyerlady say "Baby J's first birth certificate didn't even indicate a father or a place where one should be (I know some used to put "unknown" in the father spot when mothers were unmarried), but then when I had it reissued, it named both DH and I."

When she had the Birth Certificate reissued, it named her and her DH, not the child's birth mother and father. That's changing a scientific fact. That's all I was pointing out. I wasn't suggesting she or anyone else changed the scientific truth that it takes a sperm and an egg to make a baby.

I didn't mean to take the thread on a tangent. My apologies for doing so.

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No. It's not changing a scientific fact. Because when you adopt there's records of that. Sure THIS birth certificate says LL and her DH are the bio parents. But when there's an adoption there is always a paper trail.

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