TOTALLY GEEKED!

ed11563 · Guru

1 in 10 Preschoolers Have Suicidal Thoughts, Behaviors

ed11563 · Guru

I'm shocked at this.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I am too.

Shocked that even preschoolers can't just be kids and need disorders.

Preschoolers wanting to off themselves.

How ridiculous.

Tangerine · Guru

My brother was diagnosed with ODD as a child. He says that he has been suicidially depressed since he was 6 years old.
This study seems to support my brother's testimony.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

I can't remember the age when most kids understand the concept of death.

flan

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
I can't remember the age when most kids understand the concept of death.

flan

I kind of wonder what thoughts/behaviors they considered as "suicidal".

If we are talking pre-schoolers, I don't think many of them really have the concept of "death" truly defined.

I'm calling BS.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

From Psychology Today:

In many sectors of American society, children under 5 years old do not understand that death is final and inevitable. Children, between 5 and 9 years old, who do acknowledge the permanence and inevitability of death see it as something that only applies to older adults.

flan

Ohfour · Hooker

I remember listening to "All By Myself" and "I Can't Live If Living Is Without You" and crying, thinking about my mother. Its a thing...suicidal, not so much. Its a world view. ..at that age, mama is everything. What preschooler thinks they can live without their mother? Stupid that anyone would think they would kill themselves. ..

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

I think kids understand death in a rudimentary way. I think fear of death is something that is common. Suicide seems more of something that somehow seems an option to those who perhaps were exposed to it or the concept.
And mental health issues can present early in life. Maybe we really havent looked for it. Doesnt mean it wasnt there.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

flan327 wrote:
From Psychology Today:

In many sectors of American society, children under 5 years old do not understand that death is final and inevitable. Children, between 5 and 9 years old, who do acknowledge the permanence and inevitability of death see it as something that only applies to older adults.

flan

Depends on your experience. I think that my brother dying when i was 12 was a very pivotal moment. I think that being confronted with that really affected who i am.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
flan327 wrote:
From Psychology Today:

In many sectors of American society, children under 5 years old do not understand that death is final and inevitable. Children, between 5 and 9 years old, who do acknowledge the permanence and inevitability of death see it as something that only applies to older adults.

flan
Depends on your experience. I think that my brother dying when i was 12 was a very pivotal moment. I think that being confronted with that really affected who i am.

I did not know that.

But, in all fairness, 12 is not a preschooler.

flan

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Didnt say it was. Just saying that personal expereince would have an impact.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I think kids understand death in a rudimentary way. I think fear of death is something that is common. Suicide seems more of something that somehow seems an option to those who perhaps were exposed to it or the concept.
And mental health issues can present early in life. Maybe we really havent looked for it. Doesnt mean it wasnt there.

We are talking pre-schoolers here, not teenagers, or even 8 year olds.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Didnt say it was. Just saying that personal expereince would have an impact.

But there is NO WAY a pre-schooler will interpret those experiences in the same way a 12 year old will. We aren't talking 12 year olds, we are talking pre-schoolers.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Yes. And if you have never had someone die you may have a different understanding than one who did. Sheesh.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

I remember wanting to be gone, and not exist when I was very small, before I really understood death.
Little kids often have desires and emotions they can't understand or articulate, I don't see how suicidal tendencies would be any different.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Yes. And if you have never had someone die you may have a different understanding than one who did. Sheesh.

Everyone has someone die, but pre-schoolers will not have the same concept of death as older children.

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
I remember wanting to be gone, and not exist when I was very small, before I really understood death.
Little kids often have desires and emotions they can't understand or articulate, I don't see how suicidal tendencies would be any different.

But that's not the same thing as wanting to harm yourself.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

I know. Just talking about events that can color ones perception of death even at a tender age.

huskerbb · Guru

Of course it can--but seeing grandma in a casket doesn't mean a 3 year old can elucidate thoughts of wanting to kill themselves.

They may have some feelings of wanting to be with grandma or whatever, but that's not the same thing as being able to define what it takes to get there.

huskerbb · Guru

My bet is that they are finding the kids who have lost a parent, a sibling, or a close grandparent and asking them leading questions like:

Would you like to be with so and so (whoever died)?

Sure, most kids will say yes--but they have no concept of what that means much less that they want to kill themselves to do it.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

After pawpaw died, my cousin's 3 yr old saw a man who looked an awfully lot like pawpaw. The 3 yr old ran up and hugged this complete stranger.

He had been at pawpaw's viewing and funeral.

He didn't understand death.

So how can a 3 yr old think about death and suicide?

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Yes. And if you have never had someone die you may have a different understanding than one who did. Sheesh.
Everyone has someone die, but pre-schoolers will not have the same concept of death as older children.

I was not touched by death until my mid to late twenties. Even when my grand parents died they were still virtual strangers. I saw one set once a year for five days and the other set once every five years for a weekend. They weren't intricate parts of my life even though they were blood. I know some will say I'm a horrible person for not being horrified over it but it didn't really affect me. The first death that really affected me in a personal way was a patient. We were the same age, both divorced, both raising the same number of kids that were the same age on our own. Our personalities were very much alike. Our dialysis clinic did a lot of interacting with the patients. We had bowling, picnics, kidney walks, and all kinds of things. I knew him in a more personal way than I ever knew my grandparents. It really hit home when he died suddenly of a heart attack.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

lilyofcourse wrote:
After pawpaw died, my cousin's 3 yr old saw a man who looked an awfully lot like pawpaw. The 3 yr old ran up and hugged this complete stranger.

He had been at pawpaw's viewing and funeral.

He didn't understand death.

So how can a 3 yr old think about death and suicide?

Suicidal thoughts and behaviors do not require an understanding of death.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

There are kids who get so intensely emotional in the moment and very impulsive. Combine that with some knowledge of suicide and it could be a bad mix.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

healthland.time.com/2011/11/30/study-40-of-kids-who-attempt-suicide-first-try-in-elementary-or-middle-school/

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
There are kids who get so intensely emotional in the moment and very impulsive. Combine that with some knowledge of suicide and it could be a bad mix.

And drugs.

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
After pawpaw died, my cousin's 3 yr old saw a man who looked an awfully lot like pawpaw. The 3 yr old ran up and hugged this complete stranger.

He had been at pawpaw's viewing and funeral.

He didn't understand death.

So how can a 3 yr old think about death and suicide?

Suicidal thoughts and behaviors do not require an understanding of death.

Of course they do--otherwise how can they even be suicidal thoughts or behaviors?

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
healthland.time.com/2011/11/30/study-40-of-kids-who-attempt-suicide-first-try-in-elementary-or-middle-school/

Elementary or middle school is not pre-school. You keep talking about older kids. No one is saying a 7 year old or an 11 year old might not have suicidal thoughts or even attempt it.

3 year olds? No way. If they attempt it, it's accidental.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

huskerbb wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
After pawpaw died, my cousin's 3 yr old saw a man who looked an awfully lot like pawpaw. The 3 yr old ran up and hugged this complete stranger.

He had been at pawpaw's viewing and funeral.

He didn't understand death.

So how can a 3 yr old think about death and suicide?

Suicidal thoughts and behaviors do not require an understanding of death.
Of course they do--otherwise how can they even be suicidal thoughts or behaviors?

Wanting to to be gone? Feeling so sad and lonely and invisible they want to disappear? Add that to the slightest understanding of the connection between doing dangerous things and people not coming back from that, it is very easy.

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
After pawpaw died, my cousin's 3 yr old saw a man who looked an awfully lot like pawpaw. The 3 yr old ran up and hugged this complete stranger.

He had been at pawpaw's viewing and funeral.

He didn't understand death.

So how can a 3 yr old think about death and suicide?

Suicidal thoughts and behaviors do not require an understanding of death.
Of course they do--otherwise how can they even be suicidal thoughts or behaviors?

Wanting to to be gone? Feeling so sad and lonely and invisible they want to disappear? Add that to the slightest understanding of the connection between doing dangerous things and people not coming back from that, it is very easy.

Not remotely the same thing.

Suicide is actively taking your own life. Even "wishing" for death is not the same thing as taking action--or even thinking about taking action--to end your life.

Many terminally ill patients "wish" for death--that doesn't mean they want to, or would, kill themselves.

-- Edited by huskerbb on Sunday 29th of November 2015 10:10:09 PM

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Suicidal thoughts and behaviors are not even the same as suicide attempts.
Suicidal thoughts and behaviors is a broad brush, and no, I don't think it requires a very concrete understanding of death. And even three and four year olds have a basic understanding of death, even if it isn't 100% accurate.

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Suicidal thoughts and behaviors are not even the same as suicide attempts.
Suicidal thoughts and behaviors is a broad brush, and no, I don't think it requires a very concrete understanding of death. And even three and four year olds have a basic understanding of death, even if it isn't 100% accurate.

But suicidal thoughts still have to be about--you know--suicide which is not what you are describing.

Being "gone" isn't suicide.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Wanting to do dangerous things so you disappear forever and are no longer sad ? Yeah. Sounds like suicidal thoughts to me.

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Wanting to do dangerous things so you disappear forever and are no longer sad ? Yeah. Sounds like suicidal thoughts to me.

That's not even what you said--and a pre-schooler does not make the connection between the dangerous thing and disappearing forever.

huskerbb · Guru

Pre-schoolers also don't have any concept of "gone forever", either.

I'm sure lily's little cousin was told over and over that pawpaw was never coming back--but it didn't take.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

huskerbb wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Wanting to do dangerous things so you disappear forever and are no longer sad ? Yeah. Sounds like suicidal thoughts to me.
That's not even what you said--and a pre-schooler does not make the connection between the dangerous thing and disappearing forever.

Well, personal experience and science both disagree with you, soooo

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Wanting to do dangerous things so you disappear forever and are no longer sad ? Yeah. Sounds like suicidal thoughts to me.
That's not even what you said--and a pre-schooler does not make the connection between the dangerous thing and disappearing forever.
Well, personal experience and science both disagree with you, soooo

LOL!!! Personal experience? No one remembers that stuff from when they were 3. That's absurd.

I don't believe the junk science, either. I believe they led the questioning--and they are broadly defining suicidal thoughts to fall in line with your nonsensical reasoning.

huskerbb · Guru

Part of the reason that babies cry when mom drops them off at daycare is that they think that mom is gone "forever". It takes awhile to even make them aware that people and things can come and go. Once they learn that, then it takes longer still for them to learn that sometimes--they don't come back.

huskerbb · Guru

Plus, I don't think a 3 year old could even conceptualize a "dangerous activity" and associate it with death. POSSIBLY if they directly witnessed, say, a car/pedestrian accident they might--but that would be VERY FEW kids. Not the numbers postulated in the article.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

When I was five, I wanted to pack mud into my nose and mouth so I couldn't breath because I was having a hard time at home, and just wanted it to stop. Perhaps growing up on a farm gave me a better understanding of death, but I doubt it.
When my nieces cat died, only the baby kept asking for him. The older two, who were only three and 4 1/2 at the time, told her repeatedly that Princess Boy was dead and not coming back, that a car had squished him because he ran out into the road.
So yeah, personal experience. And not just my beices, but a number of cousins 'got it' fairly young as well.

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
When I was five, I wanted to pack mud into my nose and mouth so I couldn't breath because I was having a hard time at home, and just wanted it to stop. Perhaps growing up on a farm gave me a better understanding of death, but I doubt it.
When my nieces cat died, only the baby kept asking for him. The older two, who were only three and 4 1/2 at the time, told her repeatedly that Princess Boy was dead and not coming back, that a car had squished him because he ran out into the road.
So yeah, personal experience. And not just my beices, but a number of cousins 'got it' fairly young as well.

Five is not 3. Knowing your cat is dead does not equal suicidal thoughts.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

huskerbb wrote:
Plus, I don't think a 3 year old could even conceptualize a "dangerous activity" and associate it with death. POSSIBLY if they directly witnessed, say, a car/pedestrian accident they might--but that would be VERY FEW kids. Not the numbers postulated in the article.

Where are you even getting three? Preschool age can be anything from three to six. That is a wide range of development, and kids mature and learn at wildly different speeds when young.

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Plus, I don't think a 3 year old could even conceptualize a "dangerous activity" and associate it with death. POSSIBLY if they directly witnessed, say, a car/pedestrian accident they might--but that would be VERY FEW kids. Not the numbers postulated in the article.
Where are you even getting three? Preschool age can be anything from three to six. That is a wide range of development, and kids mature and learn at wildly different speeds when young.

Yeah. THREE to six--and six is ready to enter kindergarten, so I would not consider them "pre-school" just because the school year has not yet started. Many 5 year olds start kindergarten, also.

So we are basically talking 3 and 4 year olds.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

huskerbb wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
When I was five, I wanted to pack mud into my nose and mouth so I couldn't breath because I was having a hard time at home, and just wanted it to stop. Perhaps growing up on a farm gave me a better understanding of death, but I doubt it.
When my nieces cat died, only the baby kept asking for him. The older two, who were only three and 4 1/2 at the time, told her repeatedly that Princess Boy was dead and not coming back, that a car had squished him because he ran out into the road.
So yeah, personal experience. And not just my beices, but a number of cousins 'got it' fairly young as well.
Five is not 3. Knowing your cat is dead does not equal suicidal thoughts.

Wow. Talk about stating the obvious. And deliberately missing the point.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

huskerbb wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Plus, I don't think a 3 year old could even conceptualize a "dangerous activity" and associate it with death. POSSIBLY if they directly witnessed, say, a car/pedestrian accident they might--but that would be VERY FEW kids. Not the numbers postulated in the article.
Where are you even getting three? Preschool age can be anything from three to six. That is a wide range of development, and kids mature and learn at wildly different speeds when young.
Yeah. THREE to six--and six is ready to enter kindergarten, so I would not consider them "pre-school" just because the school year has not yet started. Many 5 year olds start kindergarten, also.
So we are basically talking 3 and 4 year olds.

Look again. The article specifically states they were looking at three to six.

ETA: My mistake, three to seven.

-- Edited by Dona Worry Be Happy on Sunday 29th of November 2015 10:43:36 PM

huskerbb · Guru

If they were looking at 6 and 7 year olds, then they should have titled it differently.

I guess one out of 10 could be correct if those were all the 7 year olds.

I guess I'm talking about actual pre-schoolers, not the kids too dumb to go to school when they are supposed to.

-- Edited by huskerbb on Sunday 29th of November 2015 10:47:36 PM

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
When I was five, I wanted to pack mud into my nose and mouth so I couldn't breath because I was having a hard time at home, and just wanted it to stop. Perhaps growing up on a farm gave me a better understanding of death, but I doubt it.
When my nieces cat died, only the baby kept asking for him. The older two, who were only three and 4 1/2 at the time, told her repeatedly that Princess Boy was dead and not coming back, that a car had squished him because he ran out into the road.
So yeah, personal experience. And not just my beices, but a number of cousins 'got it' fairly young as well.
Five is not 3. Knowing your cat is dead does not equal suicidal thoughts.
Wow. Talk about stating the obvious. And deliberately missing the point.

Your point is nonsense. You think that simply being able to think about death means they can conceptualize how to get there. It doesn't.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

At three? I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe not. My niece certainly seemed to grasp that running out in the road=getting run over=dead=no longer here. And she was only three, just three, when it happened.
And when asked why is was important that she never run out in the road, she was able to express it was because she might get hit by a car, and die.
How well did she get it? I have no idea.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

And frankly, if a kid is able to talk about death and verbalize why something us dangerous and should not be done, and be sad when something they love dies because they will never see it again, and demostrates an appreciation for dang er and fear of death, then how on earth can you possibly 'know' that they are incapable of thinking suicidal thoughts? You can't.