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Post Info TOPIC: Wisconsin plant says Muslim prayer creates undue hardship on production


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Can this US company ban Muslim prayer breaks? They just did

A Wisconsin manufacturing plant is telling Muslim employees they can't leave the assembly line to pray. While the company claims "undue hardship" from prayer breaks, Muslim employees and advocates say there was never a problem.

Christian Science Monitor

Muslim employees can only leave work to pray during meal breaks, according to a new policy imposed at Ariens Manufacturing in Brillion, Wisc.

“It is absolutely discrimination on its face,” employee Adan Hurr told WBAY News. “Allow me to pray so that I can go back to work and do what I love to do, which is working for Ariens. But we are not allowed to do that.” 

Islamic faith requires Muslims to pray five times a day. Until the new policy was announced Thursday, Muslim employees at Ariens were permitted to leave their station at the production line to pray twice during their shifts. While practicing the five-minute prayer, the Muslim employees would allocate their duties amongst coworkers. 

 

The policy change affects 53 workers, and only ten of these employees have indiciated that they would like to continue working at Ariens under the new policy. 

We pray by the time,” a former Ariens employee Ibrahim Mehemmed told WBAY. “So they say, ‘If you don’t pray at the break time,’ they give us this [unemployment] paper to just leave.” 

Advocates say employees at the company, which makes lawn mowers and snow blowers, and is located about 25 miles south of Green Bay, are being forced to quit.

The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) states that employers do not have to accommodate a religious practice if it causes “undue hardship” to the company by decreasing “workplace efficiency." 

"Unless they can prove 'undue hardship,' and that is definitely what is at the heart of the matter," then the policy change is illegal, Center for American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) National Communications Director Ibrahim Hooper tells The Christian Science Monitor in a phone interview Monday. "What one company thinks is an undue hardship is not actually. It is always a matter of debate and compromise." Mr. Hooper notes that federal law requires employers to offer “reasonable religious accommodations” to workers of all faith. 

But Ariens has thus far stood by their policy change. 

“We are open to any of the employees returning to work under the new policy or will look for openings in shifts that do not coincide with prayer time,” the company said in a statement. “We respect their faith, and we respect their decision regardless of their choice to return to work or not.” 

Hooper says that Ariens' claims of "undue hardship" accusations are unfounded.

"In this case, it seemed that things were going well. Ariens obviously had Muslim employees that were taking their prayer breaks and operating efficiently. What changed?" asks Hooper. Regardless of Ariens' reasons for the policy change, Hooper feels it wasn't urgent enough to leave almost 50 employees without a job.

"While we're working this out, let's go back to your original policy that seemed to work and then we can talk about some resolution that meets the needs of all parties," says Hooper.

Some fear Arien’s policy may cause a mass exodus by Green Bay’s Muslims. 

“If someone tells you, ‘you pray on your break,’ and the break time is not the prayer time, it will be impossible to pray,” employee Masjid Imam Hasan Abdi told WBAY News. “If they got fired now, there’s no way they’ll get to stay in Green Bay. They’ll have to move to find work.” 

CAIR was involved in a similar dispute earlier this month at a Cargill meat processing plant in Colorado. The outcome at Cargill may serve as a model for Ariens, as both sides seem to be working towards a compromise. 

On Dec. 23 Cargill fired some 130 employees for violating the company’s attendance policy while protesting changes to time allowed for Muslim prayer. If the protesting employees want to come back to work they will be eligible for rehire within 30 days, far less than the previous six-month probation period. Cargill spokesman Michael Martin said the beef-plant has been operating “at a significantly reduced capacity,” due to the firings and there is “certainly a desire to full staff” and operate at full capacity. 

The plant has two reflection rooms for all of its 2,100 employees to use for prayer. "There are times where we have to sequence how many people are allowed to go [to pray] so that production is not slowed down," Martin told CNN.

In another EEOC lawsuit filed in behalf of Somali Muslims working for the JBS meatpacking plant in Grand Island, Neb., a federal judge ruled in January 2015 that the the company had proven that “requested religious accommodations of unscheduled prayer breaks and/or mass meal breaks imposed an undue hardship on JBS,” according to U.S. District Judge Laurie Smith Camp.

But Hooper thinks maybe these two recent "undue hardship" accusations within one month of each other could signal a larger US trend.

"We don't like to be too suspicious, but maybe they think the growing Islamaphobia in America will give them cover?" he asks. "Does some right-wing politics figure in here somehow?" 



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Bake a cake!

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Ok - the last sentence cracks me up. Republicans care much more about freedom of religion than liberals, so that's funny. Furthermore, from what I have seen, Muslim phobia really spans bother conservatives and liberals.



As for the topic - I can see where having a few employees leave the line for prayer is no big deal, but when it gets to be 50, that has an adverse affect on production. And it's not like they can pick and chooose who gets to pray.

I mean, I believe in reasonable accomodation, but is it reasonable to have that many employees need to leave the line at the same time every day?

This applies to all religions. If a company was hiring for people they need to work on Sunday, an employee wouldn't be able to take that job and then refuse to work on Sunday based on religious beliefs.

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Well, that's the thing. We will have to make accomodations for Muslims but not for Christians.

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Having people leave the line & assign their duties to other employees doesn't seem fair to the other employees who have to take up the slack. It would seem disruptive to have employees leave their stations twice a shift every day. What if 50 employees all wanted to leave for a smoke break or snack. It would be a ridiculous request. I understand that religion is at play here but the functionality of the company as a whole should take precedent.

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Are they clocking out to pray?

I didn't see that in the article.

I don't see any employer in the average world allowing any employee to walk away from duties twice a day to pray.

Unless the place you work was of that religion.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

Are they clocking out to pray?

I didn't see that in the article.

I don't see any employer in the average world allowing any employee to walk away from duties twice a day to pray.

Unless the place you work was of that religion.


 They will sue and win.



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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Are they clocking out to pray?

I didn't see that in the article.

I don't see any employer in the average world allowing any employee to walk away from duties twice a day to pray.

Unless the place you work was of that religion.


 They will sue and win.


 Of course.

 



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I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.

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weltschmerz wrote:

I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.


 So you are against religious freedom?



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lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.


 So you are against religious freedom?


 If I hire you to work, you work. Pray on your own time.



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lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.


 So you are against religious freedom?


 You practice your religion on your own time.  



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There were some SDAs here at the hospital who demanded Saturdays off because it was the Sabbath.
Sorry, everyone else has to take up the slack on a weekend because of your religion? Sorry, you lose.
If I have to work weekends, you have to work weekends.

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From the OP:

Until the new policy was announced Thursday, Muslim employees at Ariens were permitted to leave their station at the production line to pray twice during their shifts.

Why did the company change?

"In this case, it seemed that things were going well. Ariens obviously had Muslim employees that were taking their prayer breaks and operating efficiently. What changed?" asks Hooper.

flan



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huskerbb wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.


 So you are against religious freedom?


 You practice your religion on your own time.  


 You're NOT a Muslim.

Different rules, which are important to them.

flan



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flan327 wrote:

From the OP:

Until the new policy was announced Thursday, Muslim employees at Ariens were permitted to leave their station at the production line to pray twice during their shifts.

Why did the company change?

"In this case, it seemed that things were going well. Ariens obviously had Muslim employees that were taking their prayer breaks and operating efficiently. What changed?" asks Hooper.

flan


 Probably what changed was that it was NOT going well for the company or the other employees who had to pick up the slack.  Sure, it was going well for the ones who took advantage of it, they didn't have anything to gripe about.



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If they are going to be a part of this society, they have to integrate to a degree.

If they don't want to integrate, they can do like the Amish.

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flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.


 So you are against religious freedom?


 You practice your religion on your own time.  


 You're NOT a Muslim.

Different rules, which are important to them.

flan


 Don't care. They don't respect YOUR religion when you're over there. We can't accomodate everyones' rules.

How about Muslim cabbies refusing to pick up female passengers?

How about Muslims working for the DMV refusing to give females drivers licences?

When in Rome, my friend......



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huskerbb wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.


 So you are against religious freedom?


 You practice your religion on your own time.  


 Does this apply to the baker who won't make a cake for a gay wedding?

The clerk that won't issue a marriage license? 

I said I don't know of a single employer who would allow this, regardless of religion.

BUT this is a two edged sword.

 

Freedom for one binds another.

We have to protect religious freedom even if we don't agree with the religion.

 

I remember working in manufacturing and we got a smoke break twice a day.

It wasn't fair for those who didn't smoke.

But we got it.

I don't see why 5 minutes for a smoke is ok but not for a prayer.

 



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lilyofcourse wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.


 So you are against religious freedom?


 You practice your religion on your own time.  


 Does this apply to the baker who won't make a cake for a gay wedding?

The clerk that won't issue a marriage license? 

I said I don't know of a single employer who would allow this, regardless of religion.

BUT this is a two edged sword.

 

Freedom for one binds another.

We have to protect religious freedom even if we don't agree with the religion.

 

I remember working in manufacturing and we got a smoke break twice a day.

It wasn't fair for those who didn't smoke.

But we got it.

I don't see why 5 minutes for a smoke is ok but not for a prayer.

 


 Do your JOB.



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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got that.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got that.


 You have a problem with people doing their jobs?



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No.

I hated dealing with employees. Do your job and shut up.

But, at the same time, I support freedom of religion.

And I don't see how 5 minutes to pray is different from 5 minutes to smoke.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

No.

I hated dealing with employees. Do your job and shut up.

But, at the same time, I support freedom of religion.

And I don't see how 5 minutes to pray is different from 5 minutes to smoke.


 Nobody gets smoke breaks here. Nobody. It's a thing of the past.

You can smoke on your coffee break or on your own time.

So pray on your coffee break or on your own time.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

No.

I hated dealing with employees. Do your job and shut up.

But, at the same time, I support freedom of religion.

And I don't see how 5 minutes to pray is different from 5 minutes to smoke.


 That's obvious.

flan



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I have mixed feelings. If you get 2 ten minute breaks a day and 1 hour lunch break I think you should be able to divvy it up any way you choose and use it for anything you want: praying, coffee breaks, talking on the phone, surfing the net, eating....

But if you have an assembly line type job and your breaks are more regimented then I can see an employer telling people breaks are at these allotted times only.

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flan327 wrote:

From the OP:

Until the new policy was announced Thursday, Muslim employees at Ariens were permitted to leave their station at the production line to pray twice during their shifts.

Why did the company change?

"In this case, it seemed that things were going well. Ariens obviously had Muslim employees that were taking their prayer breaks and operating efficiently. What changed?" asks Hooper.

flan


 Probably more and more Muslims were hired.  Not a big deal when it's 2, a little bigger of a deal when it's 20.



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I'm not an active poster, but I have to say, I don't get why you are being rude to her? She seems to agree with you in this case. She thinks prayer should be honored in the workplace, and so do you.

I meant to quote flan Redondo g to Lily. Guess I suck at thisno

 

 



-- Edited by Penelope on Tuesday 19th of January 2016 08:55:06 PM

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flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.


 So you are against religious freedom?


 You practice your religion on your own time.  


 You're NOT a Muslim.

Different rules, which are important to them.

flan


 So? Why should Muslims get special treatment?

The rules of any faith are important to followers of that faith. Islam is not the only religion with rules.



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This is a local-ish story for me. They left a LOT out of this story.

The original man in the OP asked to leave the line and go pray. They were understaffed and could not afford another person off the line. His supervisor asked him to postpone his prayer until someone came back. The guy walked off the job and didn't return and said he was fired. He was not - he job-abandoned. They offered to hire him back, and THEN created the new policy to take care of any future incidents. This is when all heck broke loose.

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You practice your religion on your own time.
- huskerbb

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I'm in full agreement with that idea. If your work conflicts with your religion, get a different job.

No one puts a gun to people's heads and says "You will do this as your job or die", do they? No. Choice of occupation is a free choice.

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This is a local-ish story for me. They left a LOT out of this story.

The original man in the OP asked to leave the line and go pray. They were understaffed and could not afford another person off the line. His supervisor asked him to postpone his prayer until someone came back. The guy walked off the job and didn't return and said he was fired. He was not - he job-abandoned. They offered to hire him back, and THEN created the new policy to take care of any future incidents. This is when all heck broke loose.
- Mellow Momma

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Slanted reporting strikes again!

The policy makes even more sense with that new information.

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Hello Penelope. Glad you joined us.



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WYSIWYG wrote:

This is a local-ish story for me. They left a LOT out of this story.

The original man in the OP asked to leave the line and go pray. They were understaffed and could not afford another person off the line. His supervisor asked him to postpone his prayer until someone came back. The guy walked off the job and didn't return and said he was fired. He was not - he job-abandoned. They offered to hire him back, and THEN created the new policy to take care of any future incidents. This is when all heck broke loose.
- Mellow Momma

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Slanted reporting strikes again!

The policy makes even more sense with that new information.


 There's always more to the original story. Thanks, MM.

But, if he was a Christian baker, there would be applause.

flan



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flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

I wouldn't hire anyone who has to run off and speak to their imaginary friend several times a day.


 So you are against religious freedom?


 You practice your religion on your own time.  


 You're NOT a Muslim.

Different rules, which are important to them.

flan


So what?  If you work at a restaurant that is open for Easter but you are a Christian, tough crap.  You have to show up for work or get fired. 



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WYSIWYG wrote:

You practice your religion on your own time.
- huskerbb

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I'm in full agreement with that idea. If your work conflicts with your religion, get a different job.

No one puts a gun to people's heads and says "You will do this as your job or die", do they? No. Choice of occupation is a free choice.


 Exactly.  



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pay for producing pieces of material rather than number of hours needs to be reinstated. ie piece meal

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I know what to do_sometimes wrote:

pay for producing pieces of material rather than number of hours needs to be reinstated. ie piece meal


 Piece work.

Piece work (or piecework) is any type of employment in which a worker is paid a fixed piece rate for each unit produced or action performed regardless of time



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weltschmerz wrote:
I know what to do_sometimes wrote:

pay for producing pieces of material rather than number of hours needs to be reinstated. ie piece meal


 Piece work.

Piece work (or piecework) is any type of employment in which a worker is paid a fixed piece rate for each unit produced or action performed regardless of time


 LOL what ever!  I work hard all day and check my brain at the door.  And I do not walk out of my office 5 times a day to pray to allah!



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I know what to do_sometimes wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
I know what to do_sometimes wrote:

pay for producing pieces of material rather than number of hours needs to be reinstated. ie piece meal


 Piece work.

Piece work (or piecework) is any type of employment in which a worker is paid a fixed piece rate for each unit produced or action performed regardless of time


 LOL what ever!  I work hard all day and check my brain at the door.  And I do not walk out of my office 5 times a day to pray to allah!


 Getting paid production is big in sample and carpet companies.

It's an extra. 

A bonus.

 



-- Edited by lilyofcourse on Wednesday 20th of January 2016 07:58:32 PM

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There's always more to the original story. Thanks, MM.

But, if he was a Christian baker, there would be applause.
- flan327

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I'd say the exact same thing to the baker, unless it was a Church Bakery on Church grounds. When you are at work do your job. No one forces anyone (at least in the US) to do or have a specific job. Having a specific job is a free choice. If you don't want to do the job, quit. I wouldn't work anywhere that my beliefs weren't reflected in what the company does or where I couldn't follow my faith. That's my free choice. It's everyone's free choice.

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But here is the difference.

If you walk away to pray, no matter the religion, then someone else will only be taking up your slack. Not participating in your prayer.

If someone wants you to bake a cake celebrating their religion,you are participating.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

But here is the difference.

If you walk away to pray, no matter the religion, then someone else will only be taking up your slack. Not participating in your prayer.

If someone wants you to bake a cake celebrating their religion,you are participating.


 Excuse me? If I'm an atheist baker, and I bake you a Christmas or Baptism cake, how am I participating in your religion?

Mu JOB is making cakes.

I won't be catching religion cooties from the simple act of baking you a cake.



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If I bake you a birthday cake, am I participating in your birthday?

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weltschmerz wrote:

If I bake you a birthday cake, am I participating in your birthday?


 Technically, yes, albeit indirectly. You provided an integral part of the birthday celebration.

Difference is, you won't get sued if you refuse to make the cake because you don't like the theme of the birthday.



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Actually, you will still be a year older whether you have a cake, a pie or pizza.

flan

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weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

But here is the difference.

If you walk away to pray, no matter the religion, then someone else will only be taking up your slack. Not participating in your prayer.

If someone wants you to bake a cake celebrating their religion,you are participating.


 Excuse me? If I'm an atheist baker, and I bake you a Christmas or Baptism cake, how am I participating in your religion?

Mu JOB is making cakes.

I won't be catching religion cooties from the simple act of baking you a cake.


 And this proves you don't understand the difference. 

 



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Because there is NO difference.

flan

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WYSIWYG wrote:

There's always more to the original story. Thanks, MM.

But, if he was a Christian baker, there would be applause.
- flan327

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I'd say the exact same thing to the baker, unless it was a Church Bakery on Church grounds. When you are at work do your job. No one forces anyone (at least in the US) to do or have a specific job. Having a specific job is a free choice. If you don't want to do the job, quit. I wouldn't work anywhere that my beliefs weren't reflected in what the company does or where I couldn't follow my faith. That's my free choice. It's everyone's free choice.


 If having a specific job is a free choice, then you should be able to choose the jobs you do if you are self employed.



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Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.

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