TOTALLY GEEKED!

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Healthcare Options

Tangerine · Guru

Sounds like a group plan. You would have to really trust the church's bookkeeping methods.
What recourse do you have if there is an error?

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Tangerine wrote:
Sounds like a group plan. You would have to really trust the church's bookkeeping methods.
What recourse do you have if there is an error?

I am not sure. I didn't think it was actually like a real plan when I was told about on the mom site I belong to so I looked it up. It is. We were already looking at different options and didn't like what we saw so we didn't read too far into it. My IL's loved it. My MIL had a hysterectomy and they said it paid for everything.

weltschmerz · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
I don't have a link for this. This is just for discussion. When we went out with my IL's they said they have health insurance through Joel Olsteen. At first I thought it was weird but when they began explaining it to me I realized we have something here that is almost exactly the same. Ours is run by, I think, the sister of charity or something. These "plans" count on the Obamacare exchange. I know because I looked at the one by us. It's a legit "plan". Here's how they work. They give you an amount to pay every month. You pay it to the church. All the money is thrown into a big pot. Then if you need to go to the doctor or you have a bill that needs to be paid, you pay it and submit the bill to the church. They approve it and send you a full refund for the amount you paid. So, this worked well for my IL's because they gave them a huge discount for paying cash. Then they paid the bill and sent the bill to the church. They said it took about a year to get their full refund but they did get it and got every penny back. I can see the downfall being that if you don't have the money upfront then there's that problem. But my IL's said that you can work out a payment plan with the hospital if you can't pay the whole bill while the church is processing your claim. Okay, that's their plan. Here it's the same except for one thing. You have to an include a letter every month with your payment. They send you some details about the case. For example, A member is having gallbladder surgery. Please include a letter of support and prayer. There's no name for HIPPA reasons. But you send the letter and they forward it, along with the payment, to the person receiving the check.
So what do you think?
Would you do it?
Does it cross lines of religion and state?
Good idea? Bad?
I think it would make an interesting discussion!

A church? How odd.

What happens when the pot runs out of money and people still get sick?

If there's a dwindling church population and the ones left are elderly with major, major medical bills, isn't the pot going to be rather empty?

What happens then?

NAOW · Vette's SS

Sounds risky to me. I mean, I would need to really trust the church I was counting on to do this.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I don't know Welts. I would guess they would have to work like every other plan. Have enough healthy people to cover the sick.

weltschmerz · Guru

Does the church decide if a surgery or transplant or other procedure should be done?
If they refuse, are you stuck with the bill? Do they veto meds?
What if you need a hysterectomy or vasectomy and the church doesn't believe you should get one?

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Those are good questions! My SMIL got her hysterectomy paid for. I think they pay for some of their meds. Not sure. I don't really get into their business!

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Well. It's Joel Olsteen. He is more of a motivational speaker really. His "church" is about money. And lots of it.

WYSIWYG · Guru

I don't trust churches to even teach the word of God. I don't think I could ignore that lack of trust and trust them with my healthcare financing. I'd rather use someone that's trained for it, like an insurance agent.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

lilyofcourse wrote:
Well. It's Joel Olsteen. He is more of a motivational speaker really. His "church" is about money. And lots of it.

My IL's use the Joel Olsteen one. The one we have here is not run by him. DH didn't like it because he didn't like the fact we would be required to write a note every month to someone. He said if it's forced it's not really the same as getting a card from someone who cares. I mean, I do see his point.

weltschmerz · Guru

You may want to read this.

www.osv.com/MyFaith/Article/TabId/586/ArtMID/13752/ArticleID/13464/Is-health-care-sharing-a-good-alternative-to-health-insurance.aspx

Under "related articles", it had The Road to Hell and Purgatory.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

If you are only getting out what you paid into it and not a cent more, what do you need the church to hold the money for? Just do it yourself in a savings account.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Well, you can apply to have all your medical bills paid.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Interesting read Welts.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Well, you can apply to have all your medical bills paid.

Past what you paid in? Your description makes it sound like if you pay in $10k for example, you can submit bills up to $10k. What if your bills are more like $150000 because you had major surgery followed by rehab? Do they only pay the $10k you put in?

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Or do you have to wait and see if they will pay it? How do they determine if they will pay your bill or not? What do you do if they don't? You are up the creek then.

weltschmerz · Guru

Mellow Momma wrote:
Or do you have to wait and see if they will pay it? How do they determine if they will pay your bill or not? What do you do if they don't? You are up the creek then.

I'm puzzled as well.

This was in the linked article.

"Insurance companies actually take on a legal obligation to pay claims according to the terms of the policy. A certain amount of financial risk is legally transferred to the insurance company. No such legal transfer of risk occurs with health care sharing plans.

Participants in such plans remain legally responsible for all of their medical bills. The system is based on trust and moral responsibility (not a bad thing!) as opposed to a legal contract."

It would give me pause.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Well, the way it worked for my MIL was that they paid their monthly fee, whatever that was, and when she had her hysterectomy they submitted the bill to the church. My IL's had to pay the bill while they were waiting on the church to reimburse them. They got a large cash discount. They told the church how much they paid in cash and my MIL said about a year later the church sent them a check for the full amount made out to my IL's. So they exceeded what they paid in and still got their bills paid.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Me too. What if you had something really expensive come up and they decided it was too expensive for them to pay for? What if the partnership couldn't afford to pay for it? The could have cash flow problems so easily from all the claims coming in at once.

Makes me too nervous. Seems kind of like a Ponzi scheme of sorts.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

weltschmerz wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Or do you have to wait and see if they will pay it? How do they determine if they will pay your bill or not? What do you do if they don't? You are up the creek then.
I'm puzzled as well.
This was in the linked article.
"Insurance companies actually take on a legal obligation to pay claims according to the terms of the policy. A certain amount of financial risk is legally transferred to the insurance company. No such legal transfer of risk occurs with health care sharing plans.
Participants in such plans remain legally responsible for all of their medical bills. The system is based on trust and moral responsibility (not a bad thing!) as opposed to a legal contract."

It would give me pause.

They are not legally obligated to pay anything. They can decide what to pay and what not. They won't pay for BC or abortions.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Mellow Momma wrote:
Me too. What if you had something really expensive come up and they decided it was too expensive for them to pay for? What if the partnership couldn't afford to pay for it? The could have cash flow problems so easily from all the claims coming in at once.

Makes me too nervous. Seems kind of like a Ponzi scheme of sorts.

Well, they are part of Obamacare so they are recognized as a valid form of insurance. If you sign up for this kind of plan you don't have to pay a penalty fee at the end of the year for not having insurance. This is considered insurance. So not sure if I'd call it a Ponzi scheme but I don't think I could do this.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Well, the way it worked for my MIL was that they paid their monthly fee, whatever that was, and when she had her hysterectomy they submitted the bill to the church. My IL's had to pay the bill while they were waiting on the church to reimburse them. They got a large cash discount. They told the church how much they paid in cash and my MIL said about a year later the church sent them a check for the full amount made out to my IL's. So they exceeded what they paid in and still got their bills paid.

But they still had to have the money themselves to pay the original hospital bill? So they paid money into the fund, paid their own medical bills, and continued to pay into the fund for a year. Then the find paid them back a year later. Using the money your inlaws had paid in plus the interest it earned. Seems like a big cash outlay to me.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Me too. What if you had something really expensive come up and they decided it was too expensive for them to pay for? What if the partnership couldn't afford to pay for it? The could have cash flow problems so easily from all the claims coming in at once.

Makes me too nervous. Seems kind of like a Ponzi scheme of sorts.
Well, they are part of Obamacare so they are recognized as a valid form of insurance. If you sign up for this kind of plan you don't have to pay a penalty fee at the end of the year for not having insurance. This is considered insurance. So not sure if I'd call it a Ponzi scheme but I don't think I could do this.

If enough other people don't pay in, they won't have enough money to reimburse you. Their model depends on getting more and more people to pay in so everyone can get paid. Kind of like a Ponzi scheme to me. But if it works for them...that's all that matters. It's too big of a cash outlay for mento take such a risk.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Mellow Momma wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Well, the way it worked for my MIL was that they paid their monthly fee, whatever that was, and when she had her hysterectomy they submitted the bill to the church. My IL's had to pay the bill while they were waiting on the church to reimburse them. They got a large cash discount. They told the church how much they paid in cash and my MIL said about a year later the church sent them a check for the full amount made out to my IL's. So they exceeded what they paid in and still got their bills paid.
But they still had to have the money themselves to pay the original hospital bill? So they paid money into the fund, paid their own medical bills, and continued to pay into the fund for a year. Then the find paid them back a year later. Using the money your inlaws had paid in plus the interest it earned. Seems like a big cash outlay to me.

Well, that is one issue for me too! If I can't afford to go to the doctor then I can't afford to pay cash for it. So yes, that would be a definite issue for me. And yes, you'd have to have enough people paying in to support it.

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Sounds like a pyramid scheme that works until no new "customers" can be found.

FNW · Guru

I've been hearing ads for Christian Healthcare. So your premiums aren't going to fund someone else's abortion, apparently.

huskerbb · Guru

It's basically a self funded plan. It works as long as they don't have a bunch of cancer patients or something that can't pay cash, or drain the fund faster than the money comes in.

Osteen has a big organization, but insurance companies are required to have so many dollars in assets for a reason.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

huskerbb wrote:
It's basically a self funded plan. It works as long as they don't have a bunch of cancer patients or something that can't pay cash, or drain the fund faster than the money comes in.

Osteen has a big organization, but insurance companies are required to have so many dollars in assets for a reason.

Yes, pretty much. And like FNW said they don't pay for either abortion or BC. Any forms of BC.

Ohfour · Hooker

Churches around here have been doing this for a while. At least 20 years. Its totally voluntary, so I don't see what the problem is. And the comment about separation of church and state? Thats the most absurd thing I've ever heard here (and thats sayin a lot). This is exactly what churches are supposed to do. What does this have to do with "state"?

ed11563 · Guru

FNW wrote:
I've been hearing ads for Christian Healthcare. So your premiums aren't going to fund someone else's abortion, apparently.

Believe it or not, birth control and abortions don't cost very much.

Open heart surgery COSTS A LOT.

Brain surgery or lung surgery to remove tumors, followed or preceded by chemotherapy and radiation therapy, COSTS A LOT, and these patients are unlikely to be employable afterward, and won't be paying in afterward.

As catastrophic coverage, I suspect that even the cheapest, lousiest Obamacare plans would be better -- much better -- for everyone except those who are young and healthy.

The MBA in my says this idea has too many ways to fail at the most critical times.

Yes, it sure looks like a Ponzi scheme.

The safety net for Medicare (also a Ponzi scheme) is the ability to force people to pay through taxation.

If it's worked for some, Bless Their Hearts, it's because they got in early and got their payout early. Just like what happens with Ponzi schemes before they collapse.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Ohfour wrote:
Churches around here have been doing this for a while. At least 20 years. Its totally voluntary, so I don't see what the problem is. And the comment about separation of church and state? Thats the most absurd thing I've ever heard here (and thats sayin a lot). This is exactly what churches are supposed to do. What does this have to do with "state"?

It has to do with separation of church and state if the government is going to mandate health care. Because this IS an issue. I know you don't want to see it but government now has a role in our healthcare. What if government decides to tell these church plans that they are required to cover BC and abortion? More lawsuits? I am not AGAINST these plans what I am saying is if we have mandatory health care, regulated by the government, where is the line drawn? Could get sticky.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

ed11563 wrote:
FNW wrote:
I've been hearing ads for Christian Healthcare. So your premiums aren't going to fund someone else's abortion, apparently.
Believe it or not, birth control and abortions don't cost very much.
Open heart surgery COSTS A LOT.
Brain surgery or lung surgery to remove tumors, followed or preceded by chemotherapy and radiation therapy, COSTS A LOT, and these patients are unlikely to be employable afterward, and won't be paying in afterward.

As catastrophic coverage, I suspect that even the cheapest, lousiest Obamacare plans would be better -- much better -- for everyone except those who are young and healthy.

The MBA in my says this idea has too many ways to fail at the most critical times.
Yes, it sure looks like a Ponzi scheme.

The safety net for Medicare (also a Ponzi scheme) is the ability to force people to pay through taxation.
If it's worked for some, Bless Their Hearts, it's because they got in early and got their payout early. Just like what happens with Ponzi schemes before they collapse.

DH is required to cover SS on insurance as per the divorce papers. SS's mom's insurance is sky high. They don't even use it. DH put SS on a catastrophic plan through Obamacare. This wouldn't work for everyone but for my SS it does. He gets the typical well person care covered, three ER visits a year, and three doctor visits a year. So basically six visits a year besides the catastrophic even should one happen. He goes to the doctor maybe once a year. Last year he went once and that was when I took him to the doc in a box for a spider bite. So his plan works for him.

Ohfour · Hooker

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Churches around here have been doing this for a while. At least 20 years. Its totally voluntary, so I don't see what the problem is. And the comment about separation of church and state? Thats the most absurd thing I've ever heard here (and thats sayin a lot). This is exactly what churches are supposed to do. What does this have to do with "state"?
It has to do with separation of church and state if the government is going to mandate health care. Because this IS an issue. I know you don't want to see it but government now has a role in our healthcare. What if government decides to tell these church plans that they are required to cover BC and abortion? More lawsuits? I am not AGAINST these plans what I am saying is if we have mandatory health care, regulated by the government, where is the line drawn? Could get sticky.

I think thats already been decided with the Hobby Lobby ruling. If anything, it bolstered the fact that churches can refuse to cover certain proceedures/ meds. The crux of the case was that Hooby Lobby was not a religious organization. The court ruled they were. Churches are already exempt for the law in many ways.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

What if the church decides not to cover IVF because they don't believe in it? Or a blood transfusion because they don't believe in it. Sure, you're thrilled that the Hobby Lobby verdict aligned with your beliefs but what if one of these Obamacare church plans don't align with what you believe in? You realize on the exchange it's just like regular insurance and you can't just switch willy nilly? Once you sign up you are stuck with it for that calendar year. And if you need a blood transfusion you could die first. It's not JUST about abortion and BC.

huskerbb · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
What if the church decides not to cover IVF because they don't believe in it? Or a blood transfusion because they don't believe in it. Sure, you're thrilled that the Hobby Lobby verdict aligned with your beliefs but what if one of these Obamacare church plans don't align with what you believe in? You realize on the exchange it's just like regular insurance and you can't just switch willy nilly? Once you sign up you are stuck with it for that calendar year. And if you need a blood transfusion you could die first. It's not JUST about abortion and BC.

So what? Those would be noted up front, and you can then decide if that coverage is for you. Don't sign up for that plan if it doesn't cover things you want insurance for.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

huskerbb wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
What if the church decides not to cover IVF because they don't believe in it? Or a blood transfusion because they don't believe in it. Sure, you're thrilled that the Hobby Lobby verdict aligned with your beliefs but what if one of these Obamacare church plans don't align with what you believe in? You realize on the exchange it's just like regular insurance and you can't just switch willy nilly? Once you sign up you are stuck with it for that calendar year. And if you need a blood transfusion you could die first. It's not JUST about abortion and BC.
So what? Those would be noted up front, and you can then decide if that coverage is for you. Don't sign up for that plan if it doesn't cover things you want insurance for.

Do they list every single thing they don't cover? And my question is how could they refuse it if it is mandated by Obamacare. BC sure. But how about transfusions? And what if they decide your treatment isn't worth covering? How many religious threads have we had on this?

Ohfour · Hooker

huskerbb wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
What if the church decides not to cover IVF because they don't believe in it? Or a blood transfusion because they don't believe in it. Sure, you're thrilled that the Hobby Lobby verdict aligned with your beliefs but what if one of these Obamacare church plans don't align with what you believe in? You realize on the exchange it's just like regular insurance and you can't just switch willy nilly? Once you sign up you are stuck with it for that calendar year. And if you need a blood transfusion you could die first. It's not JUST about abortion and BC.
So what? Those would be noted up front, and you can then decide if that coverage is for you. Don't sign up for that plan if it doesn't cover things you want insurance for.

Exactly. People signing on to church plans know what they are signing up for. Do you think they are all stupid or something?

Ohfour · Hooker

Oh, and my corporate healthcare plan doesnt cover IVF.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Ohfour wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
What if the church decides not to cover IVF because they don't believe in it? Or a blood transfusion because they don't believe in it. Sure, you're thrilled that the Hobby Lobby verdict aligned with your beliefs but what if one of these Obamacare church plans don't align with what you believe in? You realize on the exchange it's just like regular insurance and you can't just switch willy nilly? Once you sign up you are stuck with it for that calendar year. And if you need a blood transfusion you could die first. It's not JUST about abortion and BC.
So what? Those would be noted up front, and you can then decide if that coverage is for you. Don't sign up for that plan if it doesn't cover things you want insurance for.
Exactly. People signing on to church plans know what they are signing up for. Do you think they are all stupid or something?

I don't know if I would call it stupid but there are definitely a huge number of people out there who do not read the fine print. Ask any lawyer.

FNW · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
What if the church decides not to cover IVF because they don't believe in it? Or a blood transfusion because they don't believe in it. Sure, you're thrilled that the Hobby Lobby verdict aligned with your beliefs but what if one of these Obamacare church plans don't align with what you believe in? You realize on the exchange it's just like regular insurance and you can't just switch willy nilly? Once you sign up you are stuck with it for that calendar year. And if you need a blood transfusion you could die first. It's not JUST about abortion and BC.

Hell. my government plan only covered IVF tests. We had the pay for the rest.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

If you are of the Faith in which you don't believe in blood transfusions, why would you expect the church affiliated insurance to cover it?

If your Faith doesn't believe in BC, then your church affiliated insurance would not be expected to cover it.

I don't understand the disconnect in thinking it would.

And I don't think you should have to pay for services you don't believe in nor use.

weltschmerz · Guru

NJN, your MIL had her hysterectomy paid for, but she's older and doesn't need her bits anymore.
What if it's a younger woman who was told she absolutely must not get pregnant because her life would be in danger or she'd pass on some horrific disease? She absolutely needs a hysterectomy or having her tubes tied.
I can see the church saying it's birth control and refusing to pay, so she'd have to pay out of pocket.
Maybe biblically-based health insurance is not such a good idea.

Ohfour · Hooker

weltschmerz wrote:
NJN, your MIL had her hysterectomy paid for, but she's older and doesn't need her bits anymore.
What if it's a younger woman who was told she absolutely must not get pregnant because her life would be in danger or she'd pass on some horrific disease? She absolutely needs a hysterectomy or having her tubes tied.
I can see the church saying it's birth control and refusing to pay, so she'd have to pay out of pocket.
Maybe biblically-based health insurance is not such a good idea.

Then dont buy it! Easy peasy!

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

What if they have to pay themselves?

So what if they do?

-- Edited by lilyofcourse on Thursday 25th of February 2016 02:00:39 PM

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I paid for my BC out of pocket.

Paid for my doctors out of pocket.

It's not a foreign concept.

Ohfour · Hooker

And if i was told that getting pregnant would absolutely kill me, i wouldnt get pregnant.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Oh but that means you'd have to exercise self control.

Ohfour · Hooker

lilyofcourse wrote:
Oh but that means you'd have to exercise self control.

You mean to tell me I dont have to fvck to LIVE???? Noooo!!!!! Say it aint so!!!!

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

lilyofcourse wrote:
If you are of the Faith in which you don't believe in blood transfusions, why would you expect the church affiliated insurance to cover it?

If your Faith doesn't believe in BC, then your church affiliated insurance would not be expected to cover it.

I don't understand the disconnect in thinking it would.

And I don't think you should have to pay for services you don't believe in nor use.

I brought it up because I've seen 3-4 young mothers around here, who aren't religious, use it for a health care option. It's becoming more prevalent. This is not supposed to be a BC/abortion debate. I just wanted to see what people thought about this and whether they though it was a good idea or bad. I don't think everything thinks long term when they sign up.