Dear Carolyn: My cousin had a stillborn baby at 35 weeks about nine months ago. In our family, there are a few people with kids under 5, myself included. Sometimes when we get together, the talk turns to difficulties around parenting.
Every time, my cousin will say something like, “I wish I had that problem.” I understand where she is coming from, but I’m sure once she has children she will see how difficult parenting can be. She is just accusing us of being ungrateful, which we are not.
Her response typically stops all conversation about parenthood, and people feel guilty for bringing it up around her at all. I think this is unfair; it is possible to love your children deeply but still have issues you want to discuss. I also think it’s easy for my cousin to say we have good problems because she doesn’t have these problems at all. I’m sure she will have a healthy baby in the future, and might want a place to discuss any problems.
How do I explain to her that one day she will be grateful to have a family that discusses parenthood? My husband thinks we should cool it with the parenthood talk around her, but I think it’s just as easy for her to leave the room when it comes up.
— Cousin
”Leave the room?” Are you for real? Your insensitivity is staggering.
DETROIT FREE PRESS
Expectant dad fears backlash on naming baby boy
And you are so smug in your belief that she will know exactly how you feel as soon as she, what —has a child who doesn’t die!? That’s what you’re saying.
Imagine if I suggested that when you lose a newborn, you will grasp how hard it is when people kvetch about their babies around you — that’s offensive, right? Well, that’s the moral low ground you’ve staked out.
So you don’t “explain to her” anything, because that just lays out your expectation that she be sensitive to your needs while showing absolutely ZERO interest in being sensitive to hers. When hers are just hands-down a higher priority than yours, for reasons no one should have to explain.
“She is just accusing us of being ungrateful,” you say. I say, she’s just asking you to notice she’s in the room before you discuss teething as if it’s the biggest bad thing ever.
I advise you to heed your husband instead of falling all over yourself to defend your right to air every little feeling you feel without regard for anyone else.
To: Cousin: Do you ever mention your cousin’s stillborn baby? By name? Give her opportunities to talk about him/her? Ask if she is having a good day or a bad day? Acknowledge her as a mother? She may simply be asking for that grace — to be seen as the mother of a baby. —Anonymous
Yes, grace. Thank you.
Re: Baby: So are you advising that Cousin to just not ever talk about being a parent? The topic can’t ever be brought up? You’re placating the wrong person here. —Anonymous 2
No, you are. Could the bereaved mother phrase things better, yes — but to read “shelve baby talk around grieving cousin” as “never talk about babies everty-ever” is self-serving beyond any words within my reach.
I think there is a middle ground here. And if I have to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone, I would give it to the grieving parent. The family shouldn't have to remain silent, but they could use a bit more judgement. She will eventually learn to deal with the difficult conversations a bit better and the cousins can take their cues from her.
__________________
Out of all the lies I have told, "just kidding" is my favorite !
I disagree with Carolyn. Yes, she had a terrible loss. However, that doesn't mean others shouldn't talk about their children and lives and families. I mean, for how long? It has been 9 months. Grief is very private and in reality others can't be expected to carry your grief. They just can't. So, she for her to make those kinds of " i wish i had that problem" and treat them like they are ungrateful to talk about the trials of parenting isn't fair to anyone.
Re: Baby: So are you advising that Cousin to just not ever talk about being a parent? The topic can’t ever be brought up? You’re placating the wrong person here. —Anonymous 2
No, you are. Could the bereaved mother phrase things better, yes — but to read “shelve baby talk around grieving cousin” as “never talk about babies everty-ever” is self-serving beyond any words within my reach.
Well, isn't that pretty much what the cousin is asking? Don't talk about your kids? Not sure why Carolyn is being such an ass to the LW. I think this is actually a common question.
I was invited to a baby shower at work. It just happened to take place shortly after I miscarried. I did not go. I stayed in my office and worked. I just wasn't ready. There was a party the next door neighbor threw the weekend of my D&C. I stayed home. Flash forward a few years. I was talking to the mother for whom the shower was given, and told her about my miscarriage, and why I did not attend her shower. She completely understood, having gone through one or two herself. I also talked to my neighbor about it, and she, too, had similar experiences. But there was a period when I simply could not talk about it, and wasn't up to being around others.
You can't expect others to understand your grief. You can't expect others to put their lives on hold until you come to grips. But you can take steps to protect your psyche and mourn. While I think the relatives might consider treading lightly while in the presence of the woman for awhile, the woman should also do what she needs to do to move on from her loss. And that might be avoiding family gatherings for awhile, or walking away from conversations that she finds upsetting, or ignore and go into her "happy place" while they are talking about their children.
Yes, every person grieves differently, every situation is different. If this had been a first-trimester miscarriage, I might feel differently.
I know she's hurting, although I doubt her family appreciates the digs. But the OP is being equally insensitive when she says: "I’m sure she will have a healthy baby in the future." She can't know that. And, even if she DOES have a healthy child, she will always grieve for her stillborn baby.
One of DH's staffers and his wife are trying to get pregnant. They miscarried after one month of being pregnant. The entire office has to walk on eggshells when she is around - and it happened months ago. Recently we all went out and she wouldn't go because it was near her due date. Now, a different staff member and his wife are pregnant and again, the woman who miscarried refuses to go out with any of us. I understand grieving but she was pregnant for a few weeks. I think she needs some help getting over it if she still can't go out with friends. Her grief is disrupting her ability to enjoy her life.
__________________
Out of all the lies I have told, "just kidding" is my favorite !
One of DH's staffers and his wife are trying to get pregnant. They miscarried after one month of being pregnant. The entire office has to walk on eggshells when she is around - and it happened months ago. Recently we all went out and she wouldn't go because it was near her due date. Now, a different staff member and his wife are pregnant and again, the woman who miscarried refuses to go out with any of us. I understand grieving but she was pregnant for a few weeks. I think she needs some help getting over it if she still can't go out with friends. Her grief is disrupting her ability to enjoy her life.
Miscarriages in the first trimester are very common. It doesn't make it less painful, BUT it sounds like she needs a support group.
Yes, every person grieves differently, every situation is different. If this had been a first-trimester miscarriage, I might feel differently.
I know she's hurting, although I doubt her family appreciates the digs. But the OP is being equally insensitive when she says: "I’m sure she will have a healthy baby in the future." She can't know that. And, even if she DOES have a healthy child, she will always grieve for her stillborn baby.
flan
Flan how long are people supposed to walk on eggshells? How does them talking about their children somehow diminish her loss? Yes, if you are in a painful mourning period, then best not to attend baby showers and other events if you cannot come to enjoy their company. That is very understandable. Most people are not trying to be insensitive. However, it seems equally rude to say that someone else should pretend that their children don't exist. That is very bizarre. Like you don't have the right to be happy about your own children. So, when my mom died, should i be angry at people talking about their moms? It really doesn't make sense.
And, others simply cannot share the depth and burden of your grief. Laugh and you laugh together, cry and you cry alone is often a true cliche. You simply cannot put your grief on others, it is something you bear in your own way and you can't expect the lives of others to stop. And, yes, that is a terrible and tragic loss, but other mothers should be allowed to speak of their joy. Everyone in life will have periods of joy and periods of tragedy and suffering. And, maybe right now you are suffering. However, others may be in a season of joy. And, in reality, they will have their own burdens to bear as well. Everyone does.
Frankly, I think both sides have a valid point. I don't know the family dynamics, for one thing.
The "9 months" struck me because my first husband was killed in early March. My boss at the time was a lovely lady, but strict & no nonsense. I mentioned to her that Christmas was going to be hard (since it was our FIRST Christmas as a family of 3). She looked at me and said, "But, flan, it's been 9 months!"
Frankly, I think both sides have a valid point. I don't know the family dynamics, for one thing.
The "9 months" struck me because my first husband was killed in early March. My boss at the time was a lovely lady, but strict & no nonsense. I mentioned to her that Christmas was going to be hard (since it was our FIRST Christmas as a family of 3). She looked at me and said, "But, flan, it's been 9 months!"
flan
She clearly had never lost anyone close to her. The "first" of everything is very difficult. Moron.
__________________
Out of all the lies I have told, "just kidding" is my favorite !
Frankly, I think both sides have a valid point. I don't know the family dynamics, for one thing.
The "9 months" struck me because my first husband was killed in early March. My boss at the time was a lovely lady, but strict & no nonsense. I mentioned to her that Christmas was going to be hard (since it was our FIRST Christmas as a family of 3). She looked at me and said, "But, flan, it's been 9 months!"
flan
She clearly had never lost anyone close to her. The "first" of everything is very difficult. Moron.
I honestly don't think she really heard what she was saying.
It doesn't sound at all like she doesn't want to hear about their kids or talk about them.
The OP is specifically about COMPLAINING about motherhood.
I can understand that after having a full term stillborn baby, hearing people complain about their kids and trials could make you feel bitter.
I agree with the advice here. She lost a baby, stop whining about how hard itnis to be a parent in front of her.
"Wish I had that problem" comes from the same place as "must be nice".
Jealousy.
But it is born of different events.
It is important to be sympathetic to others.
Seems both the cousins need to practice that.
__________________
A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
I think they are both being horribly insensitive. To make family members feel guilty because they have children is a douchy thing to do, and to ignore her pain over her loss is a douchy thing to do.
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
I think they are both being horribly insensitive. To make family members feel guilty because they have children is a douchy thing to do, and to ignore her pain over her loss is a douchy thing to do.
See, that's my feeling as well.
For me, having a miscarriage & dealing with (fairly minor) fertility issues made me less likely to bitch over petty kid things.
flan
-- Edited by flan327 on Saturday 16th of April 2016 02:28:17 PM
I think they are both being horribly insensitive. To make family members feel guilty because they have children is a douchy thing to do, and to ignore her pain over her loss is a douchy thing to do.
See, that's my feeling as well.
For me, having a miscarriage & dealing with (fairly minor) fertility issues made me less likely to bitch over petty kid things.
flan
-- Edited by flan327 on Saturday 16th of April 2016 02:28:17 PM
HAHA. Not me. I went through a lot and spent a lot to bring these two into the world, I expect perfection DAMMIT! I tell them that, too. They laugh at me.
We ALL get frustrated from time to time with our kids.
That's completely normal. We wouldn't be human if we didnt.
__________________
A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
I think they are both being horribly insensitive. To make family members feel guilty because they have children is a douchy thing to do, and to ignore her pain over her loss is a douchy thing to do.
See, that's my feeling as well.
For me, having a miscarriage & dealing with (fairly minor) fertility issues made me less likely to bitch over petty kid things.
flan
-- Edited by flan327 on Saturday 16th of April 2016 02:28:17 PM
HAHA. Not me. I went through a lot and spent a lot to bring these two into the world, I expect perfection DAMMIT! I tell them that, too. They laugh at me.
We ALL get frustrated from time to time with our kids.
That's completely normal. We wouldn't be human if we didnt.
Yes, I am an alien. You got me.
I didn't say I never got frustrated. DS1 was fairly easy, to be honest. DS2 was more of a challenge.
There is a picture book (for adults) titled "Go the Fvck to Sleep." I never found it funny.
flan
And exactly why did you take my post personally when it clearly isnt?
__________________
A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
We ALL get frustrated from time to time with our kids.
That's completely normal. We wouldn't be human if we didnt.
Yes, I am an alien. You got me.
I didn't say I never got frustrated. DS1 was fairly easy, to be honest. DS2 was more of a challenge.
There is a picture book (for adults) titled "Go the Fvck to Sleep." I never found it funny.
flan
I think that book is hysterical. DH and I could have written it. I think I sang some somilar lullabies when the girls were babies. But they didn't sleep through the night until kindergarten.
__________________
Out of all the lies I have told, "just kidding" is my favorite !
We ALL get frustrated from time to time with our kids.
That's completely normal. We wouldn't be human if we didnt.
Yes, I am an alien. You got me.
I didn't say I never got frustrated. DS1 was fairly easy, to be honest. DS2 was more of a challenge.
There is a picture book (for adults) titled "Go the Fvck to Sleep." I never found it funny.
flan
I think that book is hysterical. DH and I could have written it. I think I sang some somilar lullabies when the girls were babies. But they didn't sleep through the night until kindergarten.
I LOVE that book. There is a video of Samuel L Jackson reading it. I laughed so hard I almost peed myself...
__________________
America guarantees equal opportunity, not equal outcome...
We ALL get frustrated from time to time with our kids.
That's completely normal. We wouldn't be human if we didnt.
Yes, I am an alien. You got me.
I didn't say I never got frustrated. DS1 was fairly easy, to be honest. DS2 was more of a challenge.
There is a picture book (for adults) titled "Go the Fvck to Sleep." I never found it funny.
flan
I think that book is hysterical. DH and I could have written it. I think I sang some somilar lullabies when the girls were babies. But they didn't sleep through the night until kindergarten.
I wonder if I am permitted to respond? Better check with Lily.
The idea is okay, I guess, it's just a one-trick pony. But the book sold tons of copies, so there's that.
I also hate "Love You Forever," by Robert Munsch...creeps me out.
We ALL get frustrated from time to time with our kids.
That's completely normal. We wouldn't be human if we didnt.
Yes, I am an alien. You got me.
I didn't say I never got frustrated. DS1 was fairly easy, to be honest. DS2 was more of a challenge.
There is a picture book (for adults) titled "Go the Fvck to Sleep." I never found it funny.
flan
I think that book is hysterical. DH and I could have written it. I think I sang some somilar lullabies when the girls were babies. But they didn't sleep through the night until kindergarten.
I wonder if I am permitted to respond? Better check with Lily.
The idea is okay, I guess, it's just a one-trick pony. But the book sold tons of copies, so there's that.
I also hate "Love You Forever," by Robert Munsch...creeps me out.
flan
__________________
A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
I think they are both being horribly insensitive. To make family members feel guilty because they have children is a douchy thing to do, and to ignore her pain over her loss is a douchy thing to do.
How are they ignoring her pain? What are they supposed to do everytime they see her? Pretend their own children and lives dont exist? What exactly does she WANT them to do specifically?
It doesn't sound at all like she doesn't want to hear about their kids or talk about them. The OP is specifically about COMPLAINING about motherhood. I can understand that after having a full term stillborn baby, hearing people complain about their kids and trials could make you feel bitter. I agree with the advice here. She lost a baby, stop whining about how hard itnis to be a parent in front of her.
She doesn't get to tell them how they may or may not talk about their own lives and families.
Frankly, I think both sides have a valid point. I don't know the family dynamics, for one thing.
The "9 months" struck me because my first husband was killed in early March. My boss at the time was a lovely lady, but strict & no nonsense. I mentioned to her that Christmas was going to be hard (since it was our FIRST Christmas as a family of 3). She looked at me and said, "But, flan, it's been 9 months!"
flan
Well, that is a horribly insensitive thing to say. You were just talking about your feelings. You weren't telling her to not enjoy Christmas. Which is a bit different than is the case here.
I think they are both being horribly insensitive. To make family members feel guilty because they have children is a douchy thing to do, and to ignore her pain over her loss is a douchy thing to do.
How are they ignoring her pain? What are they supposed to do everytime they see her? Pretend their own children and lives dont exist? What exactly does she WANT them to do specifically?
How often do they get together? For how long? How big is the group?
I think they are both being horribly insensitive. To make family members feel guilty because they have children is a douchy thing to do, and to ignore her pain over her loss is a douchy thing to do.
How are they ignoring her pain? What are they supposed to do everytime they see her? Pretend their own children and lives dont exist? What exactly does she WANT them to do specifically?
No idea. But I think writing in to an advice columnist about how awful she is making them feel is pretty insensitive. What if she sees it?
There really isn't anything to DO. And no, people don't have to stop going about their daily lives and walk on eggshells. If she's not ready to be around mothers and kids, she needs to keep herself out of those situations.
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
They can and should ask her what would help? However, she does not get to dictate the terms of how they may or may not speak about their own families. And, if she isn't ready to be around these situations, then she would be better to not go until she is ready and able to understand that their lives are their lives and them talking about their lives is no reflection on you or an insult to your loss.
As for insensitive comments, yes, there are a lot of people in this world who just are horrible people. Best to stay away from them because the emotional price isn't worth it.
My brother was killed in a car wreck at age 19. A few weeks after his death, my mom was at the grocery store and saw one of her friends. My mom was a "keep up a brave front" kind of person. She smiled broadly and said a big Hello to her friend and her husband and made some small talk. This woman's husband said "she sure got over my brother's death fast". I mean, it hurts me to write and type this now. I don't understand how someone could make such a cold hearted comment to my mom who was one of the most wonderful, kind people i ever knew.
On the other hand, she understood that others would be celebrating their own children. It was no doubt painful for her as well. But, she would attend and be pleasant and try to add to their joy. It was just what she did.
The LW is the one being a jerk. The mom with the stillborn baby has not asked them to do a damn thing-- she simply makes comments which are probably intended to serve as a gentle reminder that they are lucky to have healthy children.
I'm with the LW. It would get VERY OLD to be constantly reminded how supposedly "good" you have it when you just want to talk about issues with toilet training with another parent.
They were NOT going out of their way to either exclude the cousin, or to deliberately make her feel bad. They were having normal conversations between parents. It's not their job to censor their conversations forever. Nor is it the cousin's job to remind them that they should be grateful to have such darling children EVERY. DAMN. TIME.
Now, the LW does NOT know that the cousin will ever have a healthy child--but that is rather irrelevant. Some people don't, but they manage to carry on adult conversations--even about children--without having to drop a conversation bomb by reminding everyone of that fact.
__________________
I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.
Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.
Yeah, it isn't her job to "remind' them all the time and make some kind of remark. Should they start reminding her of how good her health is compared to someone else? Or how she has more money than some poor people? Or the fact that she had good parents or any number of things in comparison to someone else? Again, what does she want them to DO specifically? Other than not talk about their own children?
I'm with the LW. It would get VERY OLD to be constantly reminded how supposedly "good" you have it when you just want to talk about issues with toilet training with another parent.
They were NOT going out of their way to either exclude the cousin, or to deliberately make her feel bad. They were having normal conversations between parents. It's not their job to censor their conversations forever. Nor is it the cousin's job to remind them that they should be grateful to have such darling children EVERY. DAMN. TIME.
Now, the LW does NOT know that the cousin will ever have a healthy child--but that is rather irrelevant. Some people don't, but they manage to carry on adult conversations--even about children--without having to drop a conversation bomb by reminding everyone of that fact.
We don't know what is being said...or how often, or the tone.
But, if things don't improve, maybe the cousin does need to stay away. And joining a support group would be a good idea.
As for insensitive comments, yes, there are a lot of people in this world who just are horrible people. Best to stay away from them because the emotional price isn't worth it.
My brother was killed in a car wreck at age 19. A few weeks after his death, my mom was at the grocery store and saw one of her friends. My mom was a "keep up a brave front" kind of person. She smiled broadly and said a big Hello to her friend and her husband and made some small talk. This woman's husband said "she sure got over my brother's death fast". I mean, it hurts me to write and type this now. I don't understand how someone could make such a cold hearted comment to my mom who was one of the most wonderful, kind people i ever knew.
On the other hand, she understood that others would be celebrating their own children. It was no doubt painful for her as well. But, she would attend and be pleasant and try to add to their joy. It was just what she did.
That is so very sad, LGS.
I know how much you miss your mom. She must have been a very strong person.
I'm with the LW. It would get VERY OLD to be constantly reminded how supposedly "good" you have it when you just want to talk about issues with toilet training with another parent.
They were NOT going out of their way to either exclude the cousin, or to deliberately make her feel bad. They were having normal conversations between parents. It's not their job to censor their conversations forever. Nor is it the cousin's job to remind them that they should be grateful to have such darling children EVERY. DAMN. TIME.
Now, the LW does NOT know that the cousin will ever have a healthy child--but that is rather irrelevant. Some people don't, but they manage to carry on adult conversations--even about children--without having to drop a conversation bomb by reminding everyone of that fact.
We don't know what is being said...or how often, or the tone.
But, if things don't improve, maybe the cousin does need to stay away. And joining a support group would be a good idea.
flan
Yes, that's true too. And, if they truly are insensitive dolts, then probably best to limit your time with them.
I'm with the LW. It would get VERY OLD to be constantly reminded how supposedly "good" you have it when you just want to talk about issues with toilet training with another parent.
They were NOT going out of their way to either exclude the cousin, or to deliberately make her feel bad. They were having normal conversations between parents. It's not their job to censor their conversations forever. Nor is it the cousin's job to remind them that they should be grateful to have such darling children EVERY. DAMN. TIME.
Now, the LW does NOT know that the cousin will ever have a healthy child--but that is rather irrelevant. Some people don't, but they manage to carry on adult conversations--even about children--without having to drop a conversation bomb by reminding everyone of that fact.
We don't know what is being said...or how often, or the tone.
But, if things don't improve, maybe the cousin does need to stay away. And joining a support group would be a good idea.
flan
LW says it is EVERY TIME they are together in a group. If she can't handle people around people with children, they may stop inviting her.
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
I'm with the LW. It would get VERY OLD to be constantly reminded how supposedly "good" you have it when you just want to talk about issues with toilet training with another parent.
They were NOT going out of their way to either exclude the cousin, or to deliberately make her feel bad. They were having normal conversations between parents. It's not their job to censor their conversations forever. Nor is it the cousin's job to remind them that they should be grateful to have such darling children EVERY. DAMN. TIME.
Now, the LW does NOT know that the cousin will ever have a healthy child--but that is rather irrelevant. Some people don't, but they manage to carry on adult conversations--even about children--without having to drop a conversation bomb by reminding everyone of that fact.
We don't know what is being said...or how often, or the tone.
But, if things don't improve, maybe the cousin does need to stay away. And joining a support group would be a good idea.
flan
Oh come on. It's a bunch of mothers talking about kid crap. They are not going out of their way to remind her of her loss.
Any "tone" here is from the cousin.
-- Edited by huskerbb on Monday 18th of April 2016 09:50:37 AM
__________________
I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.
Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.
I'm with the LW. It would get VERY OLD to be constantly reminded how supposedly "good" you have it when you just want to talk about issues with toilet training with another parent.
They were NOT going out of their way to either exclude the cousin, or to deliberately make her feel bad. They were having normal conversations between parents. It's not their job to censor their conversations forever. Nor is it the cousin's job to remind them that they should be grateful to have such darling children EVERY. DAMN. TIME.
Now, the LW does NOT know that the cousin will ever have a healthy child--but that is rather irrelevant. Some people don't, but they manage to carry on adult conversations--even about children--without having to drop a conversation bomb by reminding everyone of that fact.
We don't know what is being said...or how often, or the tone.
But, if things don't improve, maybe the cousin does need to stay away. And joining a support group would be a good idea.
flan
Oh come one. It's a bunch of mothers talking about kid crap. They are not going out of their way to remind her of her loss.
Any "tone" here is from the cousin.
And let's face it - parents talk about their kids. It's absolutely and perfectly normal.
eta - Husker, you may want to correct that typo. flan can't seem to understand sentences unless they are perfect in spelling and grammar.
-- Edited by Lawyerlady on Monday 18th of April 2016 09:38:19 AM
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
