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Post Info TOPIC: War Crimes of Imperial Japan: A Lesson In Moral Equivalence for Mr. Obama


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War Crimes of Imperial Japan: A Lesson In Moral Equivalence for Mr. Obama

 
 
 

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President Obama made a single, vague reference to “evil” during his prepared remarks in Hiroshima: “We may not be able to eliminate man’s capacity to do evil, so nations and the alliances that we form must possess the means to defend ourselves. But among those nations like my own that hold nuclear stockpiles, we must have the courage to escape the logic of fear and pursue a world without them.”

He spoke at length about the horrors experienced by the populace of Hiroshima:

We stand here in the middle of this city and force ourselves to imagine the moment the bomb fell. We force ourselves to feel the dread of children confused by what they see. We listen to a silent cry. We remember all the innocents killed across the arc of that terrible war and the wars that came before and the wars that would follow.

Mere words cannot give voice to such suffering. But we have a shared responsibility to look directly into the eye of history and ask what we must do differently to curb such suffering again.

“Let all the souls here rest in peace, for we shall not repeat the evil,” he said, when readingthe inscription on a monument at the Peace Memorial Park.

He somehow forgot to mention the evils perpetrated by Imperial Japan or the unspeakable suffering it inflicted upon POWs and civilians who fell into its clutches.

Let’s correct that oversight, to help the President understand why moral equivalence is the dim refuge of lazy minds, and equating American troops with the Axis forces they defeated is an outrage.

Pearl Harbor

We can start with the one everybody knows about: the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. That was a war crime, Mr. Obama, as very clearly stated in the relevant international laws of the day. It was accompanied by equally illegal bombings against Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines, as part of a very deliberate Japanese strategy. In Hiroshima, Obama’s sole criticism of the Empire of Japan was some mumbled mush about “mistakes of the past,” and that wasn’t even exclusively directed at the Japanese. Nothing they did was a mistake.

Pearl Harbour

A small boat rescues sailors from the USS ‘West Virginia’ after she had suffered a hit in the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. The USS Tennessee (BB-43) is inboard of the sunken battleship. (Photo by Fox Photos/Getty Images)

Mr. Obama, who claims to be a lawyer and devotee of international law, may be interested to know that every single one of the 3,581 casualties at Pearl Harbor (according to theNational WWII Museum tally) were considered non-combatants, including the 2,403 military personnel who were killed, because Japan did not declare war before the attack. If it happened today, it would be rightly denounced as a terrorist attack.

The Bataan Death March

Here’s another one every American school kid should know about: the Bataan Death March. There was no swift death for the thousands of Americans and Filipinos under siege by Japanese forces in the Philippines. They were already sick and starving when they surrendered to the Japanese.

"This picture, captured from the Japanese, shows American prisoners using improvised litters to carry those of their comrades who, from the lack of food or water on the march from Bataan, fell along the road." Philippines, May 1942. (Wikimedia Commons)

“This picture, captured from the Japanese, shows American prisoners using improvised litters to carry those of their comrades who, from the lack of food or water on the march from Bataan, fell along the road.” Philippines, May 1942. (Wikimedia Commons)

In an act of pure, deliberate sadism, because they were enraged by stiff American resistance during the siege, the Japanese forced their prisoners to march a hundred miles to a prison camp on foot. Many of the prisoners were killed out of hand, including anyone who dared to ask for water… and anyone who collapsed from dehydration. POWs reportedJapanese soldiers taking away their meager supply of water and feeding it to horses while they watched. Starving men were tortured with false offers of food. Prisoners who accepted gifts of food from civilians along the route were murdered.

Some were murdered merely for possessing Japanese items, including currency. They were killed by beheading and run through with bayonets, as well as gunshots. Bayonet victims died from orgies of frenzied stabbing, not clean and swift impalement. Some of the captives were reportedly driven insane by exposure to the sun.  They were also crammed into barbed-wire pens were malaria, dengue fever, dysentery, and other diseases ran wild.

It has been estimated that between 5,000 and 11,000 of Japan’s prisoners were killed during the Bataan Death March. That wasn’t the only death march the Empire perpetrated, either. The prisoners of Sandakan were subjected to multiple forced marches, once the Japanese lost interest in using them as slave labor. By the time they were finished, only six of the original 2,390 prisoners were still alive.

One of the Japanese torture methods recounted by survivors of Sandakan involved pouring water down a prisoner’s throat until his stomach became distended, and then kicking him in the stomach.

About half of Japan’s captives in the Pacific died before the end of the war. Brave men who survived the experience spent the rest of their lives refusing to talk about what they went through.

The Rape of Nanking

Citizen of the World Barack Obama doesn’t much care for the idea of “American exceptionalism,” so he might want to consider the atrocities Imperial Japan perpetrated against the people of other countries, too. In Bataan and other POW atrocities, for example, the Japanese were even more brutal toward Filipinos than Americans. China, of course, still remembers the Rape of Nanking.

That was a literal rape, involving up to 80,000 sexual assaults. The once-prosperous city of Nanking, capital of Nationalist China at the time, was laid waste. Japanese conquerors murdered men, women, and children by the thousands, leaving bodies piled up along the streets. The Yangtze River turned red from all the blood.

Bodies of victims along Qinhuai River out of Nanking's west gate during Nanking Massacre. (Wikimedia Commons)

Bodies of victims along Qinhuai River out of Nanking’s west gate during Nanking Massacre. (Wikimedia Commons)

The death toll ran into the hundreds of thousands, leaving some modern observers to speak of genocide. The exact body count remains a matter of political dispute between Japan and China to this day. The figure generally accepted at post-war trials was over 200,000, but some think the total number is closer to 400,000.

Japanese troops massacre Chinese soldiers and civilians along the Yangtze River and burned the dead. Nanjing, China, 1937. (Wikimedia Commons)

Japanese troops massacred Chinese soldiers and civilians along the Yangtze River and burned the dead. Nanjing, China, 1937. (Wikimedia Commons)

Imperial Japan approached its Chinese foes with the same strategy ISIS uses against its enemies today: maximum carnage and savagery, to terrorize the foe into submission. They used some of the exact same methods ISIS does, including burning captives alive, beheading them, and burying them alive in slaughter pits.

Chinese prisoners being buried alive by their Japanese captors outside the city of Nanking, November 1938

Chinese prisoners being buried alive by their Japanese captors outside the city of Nanking, November 1938.

A seven-year-old child bayoneted to death by Japanese. (Wikimedia Commons)

A seven-year-old child bayoneted to death by the Japanese. (Wikimedia Commons)

 

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/05/27/war-crimes-imperial-japan-lesson-moral-equivalence-mr-obama/



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Part 2:

Also like ISIS, the Japanese occupiers were fond of taking triumphant photos of their atrocities, which is the only reason we know about many of them. They didn’t have Twitter or YouTube, of course, but Chinese working in photo shops smuggled out copies of photographs the Japanese government later attempted to destroy.

International visitors to Nanking tried to establish a safe zone for Chinese civilians, but it didn’t hold the Japanese at bay for long. One important chronicle of the occupation was the diary of an American woman named Minnie Vautrin, who wrote of girls as young as 12 being dragged away for rape, and piles of corpses burned to erase evidence of Japan’s crimes. Vautrin was one of the last victims of the Rape of Nanking. She killed herself in 1941.

Also horrified by what he saw was the man who wound up leading the unsuccessful effort to maintain an international safe zone in Nanking, John Rabe. He was the head of the local Nazi Party.

Unsurprisingly, China’s state-run media is very upset that Barack Obama didn’t mention Nanking, or other Japanese offenses against China, during his Hiroshima speech. “The death of Japanese civilians in the Hiroshima atomic bomb attack deserves global sympathy, but the tragedy was of Japan’s own making. Its then militarist government turned the city into the site of military headquarters, arsenals and camps and a vital part of its war machine that killed tens of millions in other countries,” writes Xinhua in a fiery editorial.

The Empire’s war on women was not limited to Nanking. For decades afterward, Japan has dealt with the legacy of the “comfort women,” girls forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese Army. Only last year, Japan and South Korea reached an agreement for roughly $8 million dollars in reparations to South Korean victims.

Murdering Doctors and Nurses

Working in a hospital afforded no protection from Imperial Japanese forces. When 65 Australian Army nurses tried to escape from Singapore ahead of Japanese occupation, Japanese planes blew their overloaded boat out of the water, then strafed the survivors. Many of those who made it ashore to Bangka Island were shot or bayoneted by Japanese troops, despite the nurses showing their Red Cross armbands when they surrendered.

The nurses had an opportunity to escape, but matron Irene Drummond would have none of it, because they had injured men to take care of. “Girls, we have run away from the wounded once,” she declared. “We are not going to do it again.”

Drummond’s last words, as she and 21 of her nurses were marched into the surf on Bangka Island for a machine-gun massacre by Japanese soldiers, were: “Chin up, girls! I’m proud of you all, and I love you all.”

We know this because one of the nurses, the Vivian “Bully” Bullwinkel, survived her gunshot wound and testified against the murderers at their war-crimes trial. She was captured by the Japanese again after she walked off the beach, and realized they might slaughter all of their prisoners if they knew she was eyewitness to such a war crime, so she hid her bullet wound from her captors and quietly treated it herself… even though she had been shot in the back.

At St. Stephen’s College in Hong Kong, which was serving as a relief hospital, Japanese troops murdered doctors, slaughtered their injured patients, and raped the nurses. The massacre at St. Stephen’s began on Christmas Day.

Imperial Japan deliberately attacked hospital ships on several documented occasions, including the Manunda and Centaur of Australia. Japan did not formally admit to sinking the Centaur until 1979.

Cannibalism and Medical Experiments

Imperial Japan was infamous for torturing and killing its prisoners, in defiance of all international laws. Sometimes execution was the best-case scenario for its prisoners.

In the 1990s, documents were uncovered that described widespread cannibalism by Japanese troops. The Japanese academic who collected these papers, Toshiyuki Tanaka, said the cannibalism was not primarily due to a shortage of food, but “to consolidate the group feeling of the troops.”

Tanaka documented at least 100 cases of cannibalism against Australian and Indian soldiers, and forced laborers in New Guinea, plus evidence of more such atrocities in the Philippines.

“A Pakistani, who was captured when Japan overran Singapore and taken to New Guinea, testified that in his area Japanese soldiers killed and ate one prisoner a day for ‘about 100’ days. The corporal said he saw flesh being cut from prisoners who were still alive,” reported the UK Telegraph in 1992.

A later Telegraph article cites research that suggests that four of the eight American airmen captured after bombing raids on Chichi Jima island, south of Tokyo, were cannibalized after all eight were tortured and executed with swords, bayonets, and bamboo stakes. A ninth pilot who had to bail out of his plane during the raids managed to evade capture by the Japanese. His name was Lt. George Bush.

Imperial Japan also conducted horrifying medical experiments on its prisoners, including the removal of their organs while they were still alive, without anesthesia. Some of these crimes were concealed with false claims by the Japanese government that American test subjects had been transferred to Hiroshima as POWs and vaporized in the atomic bomb blast.

The now-infamous Imperial Army Unit 731 conducted medical experiments on thousands of POWs and civilians, including chemical and biological warfare research. These weren’t just laboratory experiments – they field-tested “plague bombs” on Chinese towns. Plans were made to deploy these biological weapons against American cities with balloons and kamikaze attacks. Imperial Japan was very interested in developing and using weapons of mass destruction.

A veteran of Unit 731 recounted the story of vivisecting a live Chinese prisoner in 1995, as recounted by the New York Times:

The fellow knew that it was over for him, and so he didn’t struggle when they led him into the room and tied him down. But when I picked up the scalpel, that’s when he began screaming.

I cut him open from the chest to the stomach, and he screamed terribly, and his face was all twisted in agony. He made this unimaginable sound, he was screaming so horribly. But then finally he stopped. This was all in a day’s work for the surgeons, but it really left an impression on me because it was my first time.

Unit 731’s headquarters was straight out of a horror movie, with pieces of POW displayed in jars labeled by their nationality.

Conclusion

This list could be ten times as long as it is. Apologies to all those who lost family to Imperial Japanese atrocities that were not listed individually.

The purpose of this list is not to keep score on the horrors of war. It is the business of madmen to debate whether dying from radiation exposure is “better” than dying in a firebomb attack, or live burial alongside a few dozen friends and family members.

This is also not an assault on Japanese citizens of today. Japan is a good friend of the United States now, and that is the happiest ending one could ask from a story this horrible. The Empire of Japan is gone. It had to go. People who think like Barack Obama have no idea how to fight a war like that. God help us all if they are in power when the next such war is forced upon us.

This is, rather, an effort to help understand what was destroyed by the right, proper, and absolutely necessary bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This is the horror that would have claimed countless more victims if Japan had not been forced to surrender. It is very easy for callow politicians in 2016 to say that more Americans, and more Japanese, should have died in battle during a conventional invasion of Japan, to spare it the fury of the atomic bomb. Not many people felt that way at the time, especially if they were aware of the atrocities chronicled here.

Barack Obama treats the bombing of Hiroshima as a unique “evil.” No, sir. It was the endof an evil.

Some brave men – tragically, some good men – died fighting for Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany. Memorial Day is about showing our gratitude and respect to the heroes who had no choice but to kill them, including the crew of the Enola Gay. They saved a hell of a lot of lives, and souls, on that terrible day.



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Oh my, thank you for posting this. My father in law fought against the Japanese.

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It's amazing how quickly the facts are being both forgotten and changed.



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My Chinese friend still holds a lot of anger towards the Japanese because of what they did to the Chinese. The Japanese had to be stopped. And we were the only ones with the huevos to do it. A lot has changed.

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more than 20 years ago, I read that

more than half of Japanese high school students believed that Pearl Harbor was a Japanese

naval base, that the Americans attacked on December 7yh, 1941.

 



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I love you for posting this. That is all.

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This is still not being taught in the schools here in Japan and, furthermore, the Rape of Nanking is vehemently denied. So much denial here.

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karl271 wrote:

This is still not being taught in the schools here in Japan and, furthermore, the Rape of Nanking is vehemently denied. So much denial here.


 Thanks, karl. I was wondering if you would comment.

flan



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I noticed at the museum in Hiroshima there was no mention of Pearl Harbor.

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They started the war. We finished it.

The end.

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Lawyerlady wrote:

They started the war. We finished it.

The end.


 And lots of innocent people died on both sides.

flan



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Yes, they did. That is the cost of war. We were minding our business. They bombed us.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

Yes, they did. That is the cost of war. We were minding our business. They bombed us.


 Yes, they did.

Japan intended the attack as a preventive action to keep the U.S. Pacific Fleet from interfering with military actions the Empire of Japan planned in Southeast Asia against overseas territories of the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, and the United States. Over the next seven hours there were coordinated Japanese attacks on the U.S.-held Philippines, Guam and Wake Island and on the British Empire in Malaya, Singapore, and Hong Kong.

And then we declared war on Japan, as we should have.

flan

 



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Who cares why they did it? They struck first. They engaged the war.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

Who cares why they did it? They struck first. They engaged the war.


 I was doing some research. Is that okay?

flan



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No. No it's not!

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flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

They started the war. We finished it.

The end.


 And lots of innocent people died on both sides.

flan


 When you are the aggressor, you don't get to claim "innocents". 

The Japanese population was fervently behind the war effort, as much or more so than any other population involved in that conflict.  



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huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

They started the war. We finished it.

The end.


 And lots of innocent people died on both sides.

flan


 When you are the aggressor, you don't get to claim "innocents". 

The Japanese population was fervently behind the war effort, as much or more so than any other population involved in that conflict.  


 Why? Because YOU say so?

What percentage of the population? Does that include CHILDREN?

flan



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You had to do research? This was 6th grade history class.



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Husker has a point. They didnt care enough about their own innocents did they?

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flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

They started the war. We finished it.

The end.


 And lots of innocent people died on both sides.

flan


 When you are the aggressor, you don't get to claim "innocents". 

The Japanese population was fervently behind the war effort, as much or more so than any other population involved in that conflict.  


 Why? Because YOU say so?

What percentage of the population? Does that include CHILDREN?

flan


 It's sad that children suffered, but that's the chance you take when you choose to start a war. The suffering those children went through is all on the shoulders of the Japanese leaders.

 



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lilyofcourse wrote:

You had to do research? This was 6th grade history class.


 Did you have a point? Except to insult me?

THIS is what I didn't know:

Over the next seven hours there were coordinated Japanese attacks on the U.S.-held Philippines, Guam and Wake Island and on the British Empire in Malaya, Singapore, and Hong Kong.

flan



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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

You had to do research? This was 6th grade history class.


 Did you have a point? Except to insult me?

THIS is what I didn't know:

Over the next seven hours there were coordinated Japanese attacks on the U.S.-held Philippines, Guam and Wake Island and on the British Empire in Malaya, Singapore, and Hong Kong.

flan


 More surprised. 

Anyone our age should know this.

 



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flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

They started the war. We finished it.

The end.


 And lots of innocent people died on both sides.

flan


 When you are the aggressor, you don't get to claim "innocents". 

The Japanese population was fervently behind the war effort, as much or more so than any other population involved in that conflict.  


 Why? Because YOU say so?

What percentage of the population? Does that include CHILDREN?

flan


 Because that is historical fact.  

Percentage--100.

 

They didn't care about their children--or they would not have went to war.  We can't be expected to care more for their children than ours. 



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lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

You had to do research? This was 6th grade history class.


 Did you have a point? Except to insult me?

THIS is what I didn't know:

Over the next seven hours there were coordinated Japanese attacks on the U.S.-held Philippines, Guam and Wake Island and on the British Empire in Malaya, Singapore, and Hong Kong.

flan


 More surprised. 

Anyone our age should know this.

 


 I don't believe you.

flan



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flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

You had to do research? This was 6th grade history class.


 Did you have a point? Except to insult me?

THIS is what I didn't know:

Over the next seven hours there were coordinated Japanese attacks on the U.S.-held Philippines, Guam and Wake Island and on the British Empire in Malaya, Singapore, and Hong Kong.

flan


 More surprised. 

Anyone our age should know this.

 


 I don't believe you.

flan


this is one of my many issues with the state of our current educational system.  There is SOOOOO much history, ome needs to pick and choose what is taught, but there are some basic information that should always make the cut, one being the who, what, why where when and how one of the largest wars in the world occurred. 

I most certainly was taught that there was a coordinated attack throughout the Pcific when I did American history 27 years ago. I was also taught about FDR interning Japaneese Americans, which was not mentioned once 27 years later, when my SS took American history. 

 



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Ilumine wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

You had to do research? This was 6th grade history class.


 Did you have a point? Except to insult me?

THIS is what I didn't know:

Over the next seven hours there were coordinated Japanese attacks on the U.S.-held Philippines, Guam and Wake Island and on the British Empire in Malaya, Singapore, and Hong Kong.

flan


 More surprised. 

Anyone our age should know this.

 


 I don't believe you.

flan


this is one of my many issues with the state of our current educational system.  There is SOOOOO much history, ome needs to pick and choose what is taught, but there are some basic information that should always make the cut, one being the who, what, why where when and how one of the largest wars in the world occurred. 

I most certainly was taught that there was a coordinated attack throughout the Pcific when I did American history 27 years ago. I was also taught about FDR interning Japaneese Americans, which was not mentioned once 27 years later, when my SS took American history. 

 


 You're right. I don't remember if this was taught to us, or I found out later.

flan



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You would be surprised at how little history is being taught in schools anymore.

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If they cared about their OWN children then why were they bombing us?

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Lindley wrote:

You would be surprised at how little history is being taught in schools anymore.


 This true. 

And what is being taught is not always right.

 



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DH says that Pearl Harbor was retaliation for the US sinking a Japanese submarine. No, I don't have a source. He reads a lot of stuff that isn't part of the mainstream media. I just thought I'd share his thoughts.

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chef wrote:

DH says that Pearl Harbor was retaliation for the US sinking a Japanese submarine. No, I don't have a source. He reads a lot of stuff that isn't part of the mainstream media. I just thought I'd share his thoughts.


 Bull ****. The Rape of Nanking was done years before. They invaded French Indochina in 1940. They signed the Teipartitie Act in 1940.  Granted, theY were extremely pissEd when the U.S. And a number of other countries imposed trade embargos after the invasions of China and IndoChina. But that was becuase it stopped them from taking over the entire South Pacific all the way to Australia. 

This is was a long time coming and a long time planned And was not done over one ship. 



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chef wrote:

DH says that Pearl Harbor was retaliation for the US sinking a Japanese submarine. No, I don't have a source. He reads a lot of stuff that isn't part of the mainstream media. I just thought I'd share his thoughts.


 Impossible.  There was a Japanese sub sank before the aerial attack started--but it was sank on the very morning of Dec. 7th, 1941 while the planes were already en route.  There is NO WAY possible that the sinking of the sub was even known by Yamamoto, and, in any case, the attack was already planned and launched BEFORE the sub was sunk making it impossible for it to have played any role in the decision to launch the attack.  



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at the time, pearl had anti-submarine nets that were open and closed regularly to allow various warships access to the harbor--a couple of japanese midget submarines were actually able to follow ships into the harbor and were supposed to attack targets of opportunity but especially the carriers if present--one of them was sunk by depth charges fired from the alert destroyer and the other was found beached much later in another area of the harbor--on balance, they failed in their missions

regardless of their motivations/delusions/ideals, the courage of japanese fliers and sailors was well-respected by their allied opponents

a lone kamikaze pilot struck the USS New Jersey later in the war--though he did little damage to the Iowa class warship, the captain ordered a military service/burial at sea for the dead pilot--though many of the crew objected to the service, the majority knew it was a matter of respect, of honor towards that young man who, by himself, strapped on an airplane and flew out to attack a battleship


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Pearl Harbor was the Jap intent to destroy and take over America. Plain and simple.  The Jap government wanted to be the superpower.  They underestimated us.



-- Edited by FNW on Tuesday 31st of May 2016 03:31:36 PM

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What is war always about? Control...MONEY.


Before The Attack
September 1940. The U.S. placed an embargo on Japan by prohibiting exports of steel, scrap iron, and aviation fuel to Japan, due to Japan's takeover of northern French Indochina.

April 1941. The Japanese signed a neutrality treaty with the Soviet Union to help prevent an attack from that direction if they were to go to war with Britain or the U.S. while taking a bigger bite out of Southeast Asia.

June 1941 through the end of July 1941. Japan occupied southern Indochina. Two days later, the U.S., Britain, and the Netherlands froze Japanese assets. This prevented Japan from buying oil, which would, in time, cripple its army and make its navy and air force completely useless.

Toward the end of 1941. With the Soviets seemingly on the verge of defeat by the Axis powers, Japan seized the opportunity to try to take the oil resources of Southeast Asia. The U.S. wanted to stop Japanese expansion but the American people were not willing to go to war to stop it. The U.S. demanded that Japan withdraw from China and Indochina, but would have settled for a token withdrawal and a promise not to take more territory.

Prior to December 1941, Japan pursued two simultaneous courses: try to get the oil embargo lifted on terms that would still let them take the territory they wanted, and ... to prepare for war.

After becoming Japan's premier in mid-October, General Tojo Hideki See Books about Tojo secretly set November 29 as the last day on which Japan would accept a settlement without war.

The Japanese military was asked to devise a war plan. They proposed to sweep into Burma, Malaya, the East Indies, and the Philippines, in addition to establishing a defensive perimeter in the central and southwest Pacific. They expected the U.S. to declare war but not to be willing to fight long or hard enough to win. Their greatest concern was that the U.S. Pacific Fleet, based in Pearl Harbor could foil their plans. As insurance, the Japanese navy undertook to cripple the Pacific Fleet by a surprise air attack. See Books about Japanese Plans

The Warnings
The U.S. had broken the Japanese diplomatic code and knew an attack was imminent. A warning had been sent from Washington, but it arrived too late.

Early warning radar was new technology. Japanese planes were spotted by radar before the attack, but they were assumed to be a flight of American B-17s due in from the West Coast.



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Ilumine wrote:
chef wrote:

DH says that Pearl Harbor was retaliation for the US sinking a Japanese submarine. No, I don't have a source. He reads a lot of stuff that isn't part of the mainstream media. I just thought I'd share his thoughts.


 Bull ****. The Rape of Nanking was done years before. They invaded French Indochina in 1940. They signed the Teipartitie Act in 1940.  Granted, theY were extremely pissEd when the U.S. And a number of other countries imposed trade embargos after the invasions of China and IndoChina. But that was becuase it stopped them from taking over the entire South Pacific all the way to Australia. 

This is was a long time coming and a long time planned And was not done over one ship. 


 Thank you for the information.



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huskerbb wrote:
chef wrote:

DH says that Pearl Harbor was retaliation for the US sinking a Japanese submarine. No, I don't have a source. He reads a lot of stuff that isn't part of the mainstream media. I just thought I'd share his thoughts.


 Impossible.  There was a Japanese sub sank before the aerial attack started--but it was sank on the very morning of Dec. 7th, 1941 while the planes were already en route.  There is NO WAY possible that the sinking of the sub was even known by Yamamoto, and, in any case, the attack was already planned and launched BEFORE the sub was sunk making it impossible for it to have played any role in the decision to launch the attack.  


 Thank you for the clarification. I will have to tell that to DH.



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There were some warnings beforehand--although the time and even the location were not truly known. Most "experts" at the time guessed that the Japanese were likely to attack American forces in the Phillippines (which they did do).

Naval strategists in general also severely underestimated the capability of a carrier force to inflict that much damage on a main naval battle fleet. Pearl Harbor changed naval warfare in ways that most did not foresee on December 6th of 1941.

There were some radar readings that indicated aircraft in the area just before the attack--but they were misread as a flight of B-17 bombers. This, of course, was a severe miscalculation, likely caused in part by the fact that many senior officers and even the more experienced enlisted military personnel were enjoying a quiet Sunday morning and not even on the base, or they were in barracks and not on duty.

I don't buy the conspiracy nuts who think Roosevelt deliberately withheld specific information so as to allow the Japanese to carry out the attack and thus thrust the U.S. into the war which he had been angling for since 1939. There is no way a sitting president would want to ever start out a war by crippling the very forces that he would rely on to carry out said war. Had the American carriers been in port and many of them been damaged or sunk, it would have exposed Hawaii, itself, to enemy takeover, and from there, it would have been possible to launch direct attacks on the West Coast of the mainland. No commander would take such a grave risk to potentially lose the very war he wanted to enter before he even had a chance to bring forces to bear.

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huskerbb wrote:

There were some warnings beforehand--although the time and even the location were not truly known. Most "experts" at the time guessed that the Japanese were likely to attack American forces in the Phillippines (which they did do).

Naval strategists in general also severely underestimated the capability of a carrier force to inflict that much damage on a main naval battle fleet. Pearl Harbor changed naval warfare in ways that most did not foresee on December 6th of 1941.

There were some radar readings that indicated aircraft in the area just before the attack--but they were misread as a flight of B-17 bombers. This, of course, was a severe miscalculation, likely caused in part by the fact that many senior officers and even the more experienced enlisted military personnel were enjoying a quiet Sunday morning and not even on the base, or they were in barracks and not on duty.

I don't buy the conspiracy nuts who think Roosevelt deliberately withheld specific information so as to allow the Japanese to carry out the attack and thus thrust the U.S. into the war which he had been angling for since 1939. There is no way a sitting president would want to ever start out a war by crippling the very forces that he would rely on to carry out said war. Had the American carriers been in port and many of them been damaged or sunk, it would have exposed Hawaii, itself, to enemy takeover, and from there, it would have been possible to launch direct attacks on the West Coast of the mainland. No commander would take such a grave risk to potentially lose the very war he wanted to enter before he even had a chance to bring forces to bear.


 That is what I always believed, they simply didn't think it possible for the carrier force to make it to Hawaii.



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apple wrote:
huskerbb wrote:

There were some warnings beforehand--although the time and even the location were not truly known. Most "experts" at the time guessed that the Japanese were likely to attack American forces in the Phillippines (which they did do).

Naval strategists in general also severely underestimated the capability of a carrier force to inflict that much damage on a main naval battle fleet. Pearl Harbor changed naval warfare in ways that most did not foresee on December 6th of 1941.

There were some radar readings that indicated aircraft in the area just before the attack--but they were misread as a flight of B-17 bombers. This, of course, was a severe miscalculation, likely caused in part by the fact that many senior officers and even the more experienced enlisted military personnel were enjoying a quiet Sunday morning and not even on the base, or they were in barracks and not on duty.

I don't buy the conspiracy nuts who think Roosevelt deliberately withheld specific information so as to allow the Japanese to carry out the attack and thus thrust the U.S. into the war which he had been angling for since 1939. There is no way a sitting president would want to ever start out a war by crippling the very forces that he would rely on to carry out said war. Had the American carriers been in port and many of them been damaged or sunk, it would have exposed Hawaii, itself, to enemy takeover, and from there, it would have been possible to launch direct attacks on the West Coast of the mainland. No commander would take such a grave risk to potentially lose the very war he wanted to enter before he even had a chance to bring forces to bear.


 That is what I always believed, they simply didn't think it possible for the carrier force to make it to Hawaii.


 I don't know about not "making" it there--they just didn't think that such a force would be capable in and of itself of inflicting that much damage.  They were still "old school" strategists who felt that naval battles were won and lost with battleships, and to get a large battle fleet close enough to do what the planes did would not have been possible to do undetected.  



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agree with the " old school " mentality but there was also quite a bit of western hubris regards japan--" those little yellow monkeys " wouldn't dare attack us, etc.--several years prior to pearl harbor billy mitchell had clearly demonstrated surface ship's vulnerability to an aerial attack with several sobering demonstrations--the attack itself was brilliantly conceived and prosecuted well--it's only real failure was the early withdrawal of japanese forces--had yammamato been more resolute and followed-up on the early success of the first waves, it would have been months if not a year or more before the US could mount a significant challenge to the japanese surface fleet/forces

the admiral was definitely prescient about one aspect of the attack--the japanese had indeed " awoken the sleeping giant "


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burns07 wrote:


agree with the " old school " mentality but there was also quite a bit of western hubris regards japan--" those little yellow monkeys " wouldn't dare attack us, etc.--several years prior to pearl harbor billy mitchell had clearly demonstrated surface ship's vulnerability to an aerial attack with several sobering demonstrations--the attack itself was brilliantly conceived and prosecuted well--it's only real failure was the early withdrawal of japanese forces--had yammamato been more resolute and followed-up on the early success of the first waves, it would have been months if not a year or more before the US could mount a significant challenge to the japanese surface fleet/forces

the admiral was definitely prescient about one aspect of the attack--the japanese had indeed " awoken the sleeping giant "


 They inflicted about as much damage as they could without the carrier force in harbor.  Had they sunk the U.S. carriers, it would have been completely different.  

 

It was a significant loss the way it was--but given how the naval part of the war was fought in the Pacific, failure to knock out the carriers doomed Japan from the jump even though few thought so at the time.  



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