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Post Info TOPIC: Article says affirmative action results in cruelty to black college students


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Article says affirmative action results in cruelty to black college students
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Cruelty to Black Students

By Walter E. Williams | September 20, 2016 | 8:47 AM EDT
 
(AP Photo/Patrick Semansky)

Last year's college news was about demands for safe spaces, trigger warnings and bans on insensitivity. This year's college news is about black student demands for segregated campus housing and other racially segregated campus spaces and programs. I totally disagree with these calls by black students. It's a gross dereliction of duty for college administrators to cave to these demands, but I truly sympathize with the problems that many black college students face. For college administrators and leftist faculty, the actual fate of black students is not nearly so important as the good feelings they receive from a black presence on campus. Let's examine some of the problem.

A very large percentage of all incoming freshmen have no business being admitted to college. According to College Board's 2015 report, the average combined SAT score for white students was 1576 out of a possible 2400. Black student SAT scores, at 1277, were the lowest of the seven reported racial groups. The College Board considers an SAT score of 1550 as the benchmark that indicates a readiness for college-level work. Only 32 percent of white students scored at or above proficient in math, and just 7 percent of black students did. Forty-six percent of white test takers scored proficient in reading, and 17 percent of blacks did. The ACT, another test used for admission to college, produced similar results. The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education reports, in an article titled "A Major Crisis in College Readiness for Black Students," that 34 percent of whites who took the ACT were deemed college-ready in all four areas — English, mathematics, reading and science. For blacks, it was only 6 percent.

These are significant differences in academic preparation between white and black students. I am sure that the differences give black students feelings of inferiority and being out of place. Black college students across the country have demanded segregated housing and other "safe spaces" on campuses designated for students of color. Students calling for segregated spaces do so because they allege their campuses are oppressive, are discriminatory and represent institutionalized racism. For decades, colleges have purchased peace by creating whole departments of ethnic, diversity and multicultural studies. All too often, these "studies" are about propaganda and not serious education. Plus, they provide students with an opportunity to get an easy A.

 

 

The most pervasive form of racial discrimination at most colleges is affirmative action. In the name of helping people from groups that have suffered past discrimination, colleges admit black students whose academic preparation differs significantly with that of their white peers. Those differences are not subtle. It should not come as a surprise that the intended beneficiaries of that "benign" discrimination feel themselves ridiculed, isolated and treated differently. As a result, students who might be successes in a less competitive environment are turned into failures. One faculty member at a historically black college put it this way: "The way we see it, the majority schools are wasting large numbers of good students. They have black students with admissions statistics (that are) very high, tops. But these students wind up majoring in sociology or recreation or get wiped out altogether."

The problem of black education begins long before college. The National Assessment of Educational Progress, known as The Nation's Report Card, shows that nationally in 2015, only 7 percent of black 12th-graders scored proficient in math, and only 17 percent did so in reading. This suggests that the average black 12th-grader has the academic proficiency of a white eighth- or ninth-grader. Consider the following question: If one admits 1,000 randomly selected eighth- and ninth-graders to college and admits 1,000 randomly selected 12th-graders, who do you think is going to come out on top? Who would be surprised if the eighth- and ninth-graders felt inferiority, oppression and insensitivity?

The academic elite feel righteous seeing blacks on campus, even if they are severely mismatched. Black people must ask: Are we going to sacrifice our youngsters so that white liberals can feel good about themselves?

Walter E. Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University.



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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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I agree a great deal with what this man says.  But what is the fix?  



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Focus more on lower level (K-12) education?

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FNW wrote:

Focus more on lower level (K-12) education?


 We've been trying that for years....no child left behind...common core, etc.   It's not working.   And it can't all be up to the schools - the parents have to care, too.  

We've actually tried everything except treating everyone equally.  



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This man wrote another article about how black students in charter schools rather than regular public school thrive. The difference between them - the parents choose to send their kids there and they are subject to different rules and expectations than regular school.

We've dumbed our public schools down so badly that all kids are suffering, and black children even more so. Only 32% of white kids and 7% of black kids scored proficiently in math in regular school. That's a fail all around. And it's because we are focusing on so many other things than actually TEACHING the kids -you can't hurt their feelings by actually failing them, you can't discipline them, and you have to tip toe all over all sorts of rules.

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So privilege because of color?

Isn't that racist?



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Lawyerlady wrote:

This man wrote another article about how black students in charter schools rather than regular public school thrive. The difference between them - the parents choose to send their kids there and they are subject to different rules and expectations than regular school.

We've dumbed our public schools down so badly that all kids are suffering, and black children even more so. Only 32% of white kids and 7% of black kids scored proficiently in math in regular school. That's a fail all around. And it's because we are focusing on so many other things than actually TEACHING the kids -you can't hurt their feelings by actually failing them, you can't discipline them, and you have to tip toe all over all sorts of rules.


 And those are the parents that care so the kids already have a step up from other inner city kids.  The problem is not skin color, it is totally the attitude of the parent(s) and upbringing.  This is more a socioeconomic issue than a race one.



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We've actually tried everything except treating everyone equally.
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"Treat everyone equally" is the answer to your "What is the fix?" inquiry.

Maybe we should try that.

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I think we have treated people equally.

People just don't like it.

If white students had brought this up, wanting segregated housing and such, there would be riots.

No.

What people want is special treatment.



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No, Lily, we don't treat everyone equally. We give special exceptions to people who we believe have had it difficult through affirmative action. We allow certain groups and races to receive special treatment because of past indignities.


Here is the thing - I believe the main issue to be societal. Single parenthood and deadbeat parents (mostly dads) and our broken welfare system continue to feed the cycle of poverty. Which we then try to fix with programs to help, but that don't actually help.



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So, a generation (maybe 2) after the fight for desegregation, the black community wants to re-implement segregation? How would that work? Would there be "student of color only" areas where white students were not permitted, and corresponding "white students only" areas also? Or, just the former. (Because the latter would be racist, don't you know!).

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Oh it's not a race problem.

It's single parent homes and poverty.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

Oh it's not a race problem.

It's single parent homes and poverty.


 I agree  lily.



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I was being sarcastic.

Poor people are not going to college asking for separate housing.

They are too busy trying to make a living.

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lilyofcourse wrote:

I was being sarcastic.

Poor people are not going to college asking for separate housing.

They are too busy trying to make a living.


 Bwaahaahaahhaaaaaaa!  

 

Get real. 



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Poor people can't afford college.

And those that do get to go, are mostly just happy to be there.


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Point is, by asking for segregated housing because of the color of their skin is the exact opposite of what they are supposedly fighting against.

At the very least, it's stupid.

It's racist on their part.



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So, a generation (maybe 2) after the fight for desegregation, the black community wants to re-implement segregation? How would that work? Would there be "student of color only" areas where white students were not permitted, and corresponding "white students only" areas also? Or, just the former. (Because the latter would be racist, don't you know!).
- Oughttabeworking

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Seriously. I so wish some college group of white kids would do this just as a protest against the black kids doing it. File it with the college board ahead of time as a protest against stupidity, and then go out and protest as if they really wanted white-only. And when people bitch and moan about 'those racist white people', they can say "Interesting. It's only racist when white people do it. But when black people do it you don't have a problem with it. Who are the racists again?"

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lilyofcourse wrote:

Poor people can't afford college.

And those that do get to go, are mostly just happy to be there.


 You are kidding, right?  That's what scholarships and financial aid are for.  Poor people most certainly go to college all the time.  

 

I had absolutely NO MONEY when I went to college.  NONE.  And my single mother and dead father didn't have any to give me.  Still went, still graduated.  



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Still missing the point that this isn't about poor people or single parents.

It's racism.

Pure and simple racism.



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Yes, it is. But you ignore WHY they would be asking for that. You ignore WHY racism is getting worse and not better.

And you ignore completely the socioeconomic and societal struggles of black children raised in a cycle of poverty because they are born to single mothers with deadbeat dads who can't or don't care about education.

You can't change attitudes without addressing the problems that created the attitude.

But I realize your black and white world doesn't actually allow for real thought or discussion.

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My black and white world?

Excuses for bad behavior and going back 70 years is not going to explain anything.

But.

You know what.

Give to them.

Maybe once they lose the ability to enter certain places solely because of their skin color and their own stupidity, they will get it.

Let them segregate themselves.

And when they get pissed off about being excluded, remind them they wanted it that way.

 

I bet their great grandparents would kick their butts for this.



-- Edited by lilyofcourse on Thursday 22nd of September 2016 07:54:05 AM

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You seem to be arguing against something that hasn't been said.

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I'm stating a fact.

It doesn't matter why this was asked for.

Just that it was.

It's racism.

Call it what it is.



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Your fact is ignoring relevant points to the discussion. You don't want to discuss - you just want to name call.

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I haven't called anyone a name.

I'm addressing the real problem.

Not trying to make excuses.

You on the other hand....

This is racism.

It isn't single parent homes or poverty or anything else.

It's racism.

And you don't stop racism with excuses.

You stop it by calling it out.

 

If it were a white student body requesting segregated housing because they don't feel safe in mixed housing, do you really think single parenting or poverty would be discussed?  

No.

They'd just be racist.

 

I'm being real.

 

I don't care if they didn't get enough hugs growing up.

It doesn't matter.



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Children have no control over the environment they are raised in. So, unless you address the problems in their upbringing, you can't do anything, and it will continue to get worse. And your failure to see that directly fuels the problems between the races. Just saying "it's racism" does nothing. Repeatedly stating that and using sarcasm is not discussion, it's just stubborn ignorance. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks are likely rolling in their graves over this - but the world they lived in was a different place and time.

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Bull.

These are not kids.

They are young adults.

They are taught racism.

Poverty and single parent homes don't create racism.

Hate does.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

Bull.

These are not kids.

They are young adults.

They are taught racism.

Poverty and single parent homes don't create racism.

Hate does.


 And you'd know all about that, wouldn't you?



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These are kids entering the world for the FIRST TIME. They haven't had the opportunity to learn anything different than what they were taught.

What, Lily, you think magically at 18 they are just supposed to know everything and be better than how they were brought up?

Unbelievable. You have no clue whatsoever.

Perhaps you should have gone to college so you might have a broader outlook, understanding, and a bit more knowledge of what you so often claim to know everything about.

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Why don't you stop this passive aggressive crap and just say what's on your mind?

I don't care why.

It doesn't matter.

Treating people equally means treating them equally in every situation.

If this were white students, would "why" matter?

No.

So it shouldn't matter with black students.



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Lawyerlady wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Bull.

These are not kids.

They are young adults.

They are taught racism.

Poverty and single parent homes don't create racism.

Hate does.


 And you'd know all about that, wouldn't you?


 What are you trying to say with this? 



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Lawyerlady wrote:

These are kids entering the world for the FIRST TIME. They haven't had the opportunity to learn anything different than what they were taught.

What, Lily, you think magically at 18 they are just supposed to know everything and be better than how they were brought up?

Unbelievable. You have no clue whatsoever.

Perhaps you should have gone to college so you might have a broader outlook, understanding, and a bit more knowledge of what you so often claim to know everything about.


 Wow.

 



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lilyofcourse wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

These are kids entering the world for the FIRST TIME. They haven't had the opportunity to learn anything different than what they were taught.

What, Lily, you think magically at 18 they are just supposed to know everything and be better than how they were brought up?

Unbelievable. You have no clue whatsoever.

Perhaps you should have gone to college so you might have a broader outlook, understanding, and a bit more knowledge of what you so often claim to know everything about.


 Wow.

 


 Did that hurt?  Certainly no more than your continued simple name-calling which shows a complete lack of knowledge and CARE related to our society and how the way children are raised affect it.  

You haven't added anything constructive to this discussion.  You've been nasty and sarcastic and close-minded.  



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Who have I called a name?????

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lilyofcourse wrote:

Who have I called a name?????


 All you have said repeatedly is RACIST! RACISM! RACIST!  

 

I actually wanted to have a discussion related to what needs to be done that a couple of generations removed, young black students WANT segregation after the struggles of their grand-parents and great grand-parents.  But you are so damn filled with hate, you just scream racism and can't have an discussion about it at all. 

It's SAD, Lily.   And attitudes like yours DO NOT HELP. 



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I'm being hateful?

Have you read the things you have directed at me?

As to the OP, making excuses for racism is not the answer.

I said people are being treated equally.

This group of students are asking for special treatment.

So treat people equally until it no longer suits them?

 



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lilyofcourse wrote:

I'm being hateful?

Have you read the things you have directed at me?

As to the OP, making excuses for racism is not the answer.

I said people are being treated equally.

This group of students are asking for special treatment.

So treat people equally until it no longer suits them?

 


 If you have read the article and comments, you certainly have not understood them.  

 

Absolutely no one said anything like that. 



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And the POINT is that they are NOT treated equally. Students are accepted to college with lower grades and test scores because they are black, and then they struggle to succeed against whites because they do not have the same level of education and learning. College is more difficult for them precisely because they are given special treatment. That is NOT equal. You put an B- student in a class with a bunch of A students, and the B- student is going to feel inferior. What is so hard to understand about that, Lily?

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Affirmative action gets them into a college they would not otherwise be qualified for, but it can't make the playing field even.

So, in order to make students feel equal, they need to be at equal universities. If a C average wouldn't get a white kid into a good school, it shouldn't get a black kid into the same school, b/c they are then continually struggling to keep up with students that have always out-performed them.

If a school has a minimum gpa and test score requirement - it should apply to everyone equally.

Affirmative action PRETENDS to help - it does not actually help. And it's insulting. It says black students need special consideration to be allowed in. Guess what? There are brilliant black students out there just like there are brilliant white students.

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I read the article. It seems to me it is more about the lack of black students who are adequately prepared for college level studies. But, because of affirmative action, they are ending up in college anyways. Which then they feel "unsafe" among their prepared peers and are requesting to be segregated. While on the surface, that would appear to be a race issue (and there are some contributing factors), it's not. It is a socioeconomical issue. These kids come from homes with little to no support. They are not allowed to focus on studies because they have to focus on surviving. But, because of their race (here is one of those contributing factors) they get to go to a college they are not qualified for.

The area I live in has these same socioeconomical issues. The difference? The kids are white. They come from households that do not value education. They have parents who care more about their next score than their kids next test. These students don't get a break because they are white. Instead, they just settle to continue the cycle.

The fix is to find a way to nurture the kids (black, white, purple) who have a chance to succeed. Allow them to become more than their upbringing. Break the cycle.

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Divine Geek wrote:

I read the article. It seems to me it is more about the lack of black students who are adequately prepared for college level studies. But, because of affirmative action, they are ending up in college anyways. Which then they feel "unsafe" among their prepared peers and are requesting to be segregated. While on the surface, that would appear to be a race issue (and there are some contributing factors), it's not. It is a socioeconomical issue. These kids come from homes with little to no support. They are not allowed to focus on studies because they have to focus on surviving. But, because of their race (here is one of those contributing factors) they get to go to a college they are not qualified for.

The area I live in has these same socioeconomical issues. The difference? The kids are white. They come from households that do not value education. They have parents who care more about their next score than their kids next test. These students don't get a break because they are white. Instead, they just settle to continue the cycle.

The fix is to find a way to nurture the kids (black, white, purple) who have a chance to succeed. Allow them to become more than their upbringing. Break the cycle.


 I agree.  Thank you for such a well thought out response. 



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I really do get tired of the cries that everything is about race. No, a lot of the problems we are seeing are about parents not being parents. And living in a society that allows it.

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Divine Geek wrote:

I really do get tired of the cries that everything is about race. No, a lot of the problems we are seeing are about parents not being parents. And living in a society that allows it.


 Yes.  And racism is worse specifically because of the socioeconomic break down.  Black students raised in two parent homes with parents that care about their education fair just as well as their white counterparts.  Increased racism is the effect - not the cause.  The CAUSE is a change in societal mores and values that create a cycle of poverty because of increased single parenthood and deadbeat parents that don't support their kids.  And not all of them fail to care about education, but they have to focus more on actually taking care of a family all by themselves.  



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Divine Geek wrote:

I read the article. It seems to me it is more about the lack of black students who are adequately prepared for college level studies. But, because of affirmative action, they are ending up in college anyways. Which then they feel "unsafe" among their prepared peers and are requesting to be segregated. While on the surface, that would appear to be a race issue (and there are some contributing factors), it's not. It is a socioeconomical issue. These kids come from homes with little to no support. They are not allowed to focus on studies because they have to focus on surviving. But, because of their race (here is one of those contributing factors) they get to go to a college they are not qualified for.

The area I live in has these same socioeconomical issues. The difference? The kids are white. They come from households that do not value education. They have parents who care more about their next score than their kids next test. These students don't get a break because they are white. Instead, they just settle to continue the cycle.

The fix is to find a way to nurture the kids (black, white, purple) who have a chance to succeed. Allow them to become more than their upbringing. Break the cycle.


 This.

Also, society as a whole needs to stop expecting people to just continue the cycle. Stop expecting a certain group to turn the area into a ghetto. Stop expecting a certain group to be thugs. Stop expecting a certain group to pop out a bunch of kids. Because those groups have no reason to break the cycle if the tiniest hint that stereotype may prove true exists. It won't matter what they do on their end if the tiniest event has society telling them they're no better than their parents, grandparents, etc.



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chef wrote:
Divine Geek wrote:

I read the article. It seems to me it is more about the lack of black students who are adequately prepared for college level studies. But, because of affirmative action, they are ending up in college anyways. Which then they feel "unsafe" among their prepared peers and are requesting to be segregated. While on the surface, that would appear to be a race issue (and there are some contributing factors), it's not. It is a socioeconomical issue. These kids come from homes with little to no support. They are not allowed to focus on studies because they have to focus on surviving. But, because of their race (here is one of those contributing factors) they get to go to a college they are not qualified for.

The area I live in has these same socioeconomical issues. The difference? The kids are white. They come from households that do not value education. They have parents who care more about their next score than their kids next test. These students don't get a break because they are white. Instead, they just settle to continue the cycle.

The fix is to find a way to nurture the kids (black, white, purple) who have a chance to succeed. Allow them to become more than their upbringing. Break the cycle.


 This.

Also, society as a whole needs to stop expecting people to just continue the cycle. Stop expecting a certain group to turn the area into a ghetto. Stop expecting a certain group to be thugs. Stop expecting a certain group to pop out a bunch of kids. Because those groups have no reason to break the cycle if the tiniest hint that stereotype may prove true exists. It won't matter what they do on their end if the tiniest event has society telling them they're no better than their parents, grandparents, etc.


 Yes.  People tend to live up to expectations.  We have to EXPECT people to strive for a better life, not tell them they can't do it. 



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Exactly.

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I actually think it's a combination of racism + the utter failure (no surprise to me) of affirmative action putting people in places they had no business being in the first place.

The racism though isn't white against black as some might surmise. It's black against everyone else. "Black pride" is destroying the attempt to reach a fully integrated society.

Take "Black lives matter" for example. No. They don't. Not any more than lives of any other race matter. ALL lives matter. All they had to do to make it inclusive instead of exclusive was add a three letter word. That word is "too". "Black lives matter too". They could still be promoting their agenda about stopping profiling and police on black violence (even though it's not the big huge problem they make it out to be), but without making it racist, blacks against everyone else, if they had just added those three little letters: "too".

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