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Lawyerlady


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DEAR CAROLYN: A neighbor invited my daughter for a play date and Daughter didn’t want to play with that friend. I told the mom Daughter needed some down time, which isn’t untrue, but also isn’t the actual reason. Both of my kids, 8 and 10, questioned the approach afterward and Daughter commented, “Well, honesty is the best policy, but sometimes it’s not.”

 

Wow, that wasn’t the message I wanted to convey! Was I wrong to approach it the way I did? I couldn’t imagine saying my daughter just didn’t want to play with her kid. How to help kids understand “white lies” in a way that retains the value of being honest?

White Lies


Carolyn Hax 

DEAR WHITE LIES: Honesty without cruelty is a balance even adults struggle to achieve — as your story so aptly demonstrates. So present it to your kids that way, instead of trying to come up with the definitive, parent-knows-best kind of message.

Taking your example from where you left off, you could say: “That wasn’t the message I wanted to convey! It’s important to be honest without being excessively so, and sometimes it’s hard to figure out exactly where that line is.”

And then: “I was caught off-guard just now and told a ‘white lie’ — that’s when you lie about something trivial to protect a person’s feelings.”

And then: “What do you guys think, could I have given a better answer? If a friend didn’t want to come to our house, what would you want that friend to say?”

This isn’t merely an elegant punt. It’s a way for you to engage your kids in moral reasoning, to invest them in the way they choose to interact with others, to help them cultivate empathy, to learn from them yourself.

They might surprise you and say they’d rather friends just said they didn’t want to come over today. (And really — is that so bad?) They might question your reflex to give a reason, since, “No, thanks,” is a perfectly valid response.

Which brings us to the bigger problem “white lies” present than their dishonesty: They grow out of a boundary problem. Our time and choices and bodies are our own — so unless we’re bailing out on an invitation we’ve already accepted, we don’t need reasons to say no, and no one acquires entitlement to know our reasons just by inviting us somewhere.

So get your kids thinking, talking and phrasing their way toward a position of strength, where they resist padding “no” with justifications, real or manufactured, and do so with the kindest intent.



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Lady Gaga Snerd


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Oh FFS. Can people not function anymore? The "honesty is the best policy" is something people say to be able to unload anything and everything on everyone. And, know you don't have to lie either. How about just say "sorry, she cannot come over to play today"?

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Lady Gaga Snerd


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I taught DD that she doesn't have to explain herself to everyone about everything. If someone invites you somewhere, all they need to know is if you are coming or not coming. You don't have to explain the why of whether you are or your aren't. You can if you wish to but it isn't required. So, no you don't have to lie about either. Just be say what you are doing and then shut up. If people could learn to just make a statement of Yes i can or no i cannot and then shut up, their lives would get so much easier! lol

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lilyofcourse


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For me, a lie is a lie.

What's wrong with "susie doesn't want to play"?



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Just be to the point. It's simple.

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Lawyerlady


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Well, if Susie didn't want to play, then "Susie needs some down time" is not a lie, now is it? It is simply a nicer characterization and way of saying no.

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Lady Gaga Snerd


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When did people start to think they had to give all of their reasons for everything?

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Lawyerlady


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Social graces and niceness?

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Lawyerlady wrote:

Social graces and niceness?

No.  It is the opposite.  She wants to be "honest" about Susie doesn't like to play with your kid, etc.  Social graces and niceness aren't about unloading your 'honesty".  You can politely decline something without launching into all that.



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I learned years ago how to politely decline an invitation without an excuse. "Sounds like fun! I am so sorry we are unable to come!"

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Lawyerlady


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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

Social graces and niceness?

No.  It is the opposite.  She wants to be "honest" about Susie doesn't like to play with your kid, etc.  Social graces and niceness aren't about unloading your 'honesty".  You can politely decline something without launching into all that.

 Did you read the same OP as I did?  She told the white lie because she didn't want to say that. 



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Saying she wanted down time was also the truth.
How do some people get through the day?

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Lady Gaga Snerd


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Lawyerlady wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

Social graces and niceness?

No.  It is the opposite.  She wants to be "honest" about Susie doesn't like to play with your kid, etc.  Social graces and niceness aren't about unloading your 'honesty".  You can politely decline something without launching into all that.

 Did you read the same OP as I did?  She told the white lie because she didn't want to say that. 

 Those werent the only 2 options. That's what we are saying.



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Lawyerlady


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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

Social graces and niceness?

No.  It is the opposite.  She wants to be "honest" about Susie doesn't like to play with your kid, etc.  Social graces and niceness aren't about unloading your 'honesty".  You can politely decline something without launching into all that.

 Did you read the same OP as I did?  She told the white lie because she didn't want to say that. 

 Those werent the only 2 options. That's what we are saying.

 I was answering your question as to why people feel the need to give a reason why. 



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One can be nice and have social grace by politely declining without launching into a long explanation.

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Lawyerlady


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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

One can be nice and have social grace by politely declining without launching into a long explanation.

 And once you do that any number of times, you are likely to stop being asked.  So, unless you are actually trying to cut someone out of your life, then you should try to be a little nicer about it.



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how old is the op?---lord



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Lady Gaga Snerd


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Lawyerlady wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

One can be nice and have social grace by politely declining without launching into a long explanation.

 And once you do that any number of times, you are likely to stop being asked.  So, unless you are actually trying to cut someone out of your life, then you should try to be a little nicer about it.

 What are you talking about?  Wow.   What isn't nice about "sorry, she cannot come over and play today"?  Sheesh.



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Tignanello


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apparently you've not caught onto the 'slow fade' or 'ghosting' approach to relationships. Makes sense. I'd slow fade on you too.

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I'd respond with "not today, another time, maybe".



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I don't seen anything wrong with not explaining this.
Not explaining going to a friends wedding ok that would raise an eyebrow but something looks this? I would just assume they didn't feel like it. No biggie

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Lady Gaga Snerd


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Tignanello wrote:

apparently you've not caught onto the 'slow fade' or 'ghosting' approach to relationships. Makes sense. I'd slow fade on you too.

 Oh please don't SLOW fade, please go ASAP!!  BTW, who peed in your cheerios?  Lol 



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We've done the "slow fade" by declining without an excuse.

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Lady Gaga Snerd


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So, saying No Thank you my daughter cannot come over today is rude? Alrighty then!

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I don't think so Gaga. Just to an invitation to play? Nope

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Mary Zombie


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Maybe I'm weird but I don't really care what the reason is most of the time. I just want a yes or no so I can plan. I Used to explain myself all of the time and sometimes you just get tired

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Lawyerlady


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It's not rude, per se. But if that's how you decline all your invites - with no reason other than "no, sorry- can't", people are going to start to assume you don't want them to ask. And they will stop asking.

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Something like a wedding or holiday might warrant some sort of explanation but a play date or lunch.....not neccesarily

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Tignanello


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Lawyerlady wrote:

It's not rude, per se. But if that's how you decline all your invites - with no reason other than "no, sorry- can't", people are going to start to assume you don't want them to ask. And they will stop asking.

 This.



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Perhaps we as a whole have become too entitled to explanations where a no thank you she can't play today is considered rude. Which begs a question. Why do we feel like we need explaining to so much?

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Mary Zombie wrote:

Perhaps we as a whole have become too entitled to explanations where a no thank you she can't play today is considered rude. Which begs a question. Why do we feel like we need explaining to so much?

 This completely. I had to break myself of the habit a while ago, I felt people deserved explanations to everything which gets uncomfortable when the explanation is personal or private. I switched around my thinking and now answer just like you wrote, With manners but no reason. Hasn't stopped invitations from coming, in fact, I am busier than ever, lol. 

Explanations and excuses are hard to tell apart. So by not giving one people don't have to wonder if you're blowing them off.



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I'm with Mary. One can be polite without divulging personal and private information.

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lilyofcourse


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There really is something to be said for "because I said....".

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I find sometimes they think you're making it up if your reason is too detailed.

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Have only read the OP so far.

I see two things here:

First and foremost, there was no actual lie if the letter posted is a true accounting of what transpired.

However, secondly, to address the question of differentiating between "white lies" and full disclosure, the Bible says "Thou shalt not bear false witness". To lie is a sin. Whether the lie be great, or inconsequential, or even to spare feelings, it's still a lie. Therefore there's no distinction to be made between them. Teach that both are wrong. And teach that you can be honest without being mean or hurtful, by being selective in what truth to share and what truth to hold back.

"My daughter needs some down time" is honest without being hurtful.

"My daughter needs time away from your mean little brat because your daughter is a menace and bitch" could be honest too, but would be hurtful.

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Bearing false witness affects and gets other in trouble. A white lie really does neither.  The actual text of the commandment is "Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor." 

 

Proverbs 6:16-19 on lying and a wicked heart - There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Exodus 23:1-2 - You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness. You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice, nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his lawsuit.

 

All have evil intent or pervert justice.  A white lie to spare the feelings of others does not have evil intent.  You could actually be spreading evil with brutal honesty - some use "just being honest" to hurt others. 



-- Edited by Lawyerlady on Tuesday 7th of March 2017 07:12:28 AM



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Lawyerlady


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God knows your heart and whether your intent is to deceive or spare feelings.

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I agree with WYSIWYG.

A lie is a lie is a lie.

God doesn't distinguish.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

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You aren't lying by not verbalizing your every feeling. That isn't lying.

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Lady Gaga Snerd


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And, in reality our words are to be few.


Proverbs 10:19
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.




Eccle 5:2 King James Bible
Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.




-- Edited by Lady Gaga Snerd on Tuesday 7th of March 2017 07:59:24 AM

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Lady Gaga Snerd


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The choice isn't to lie or to be "truthful" and hurt someone's feelings. One can be truthful and not lie and also needlessly hurt someone as well.

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Not telling the whole story so you don't hurt some ones feelings can't really be compared to lying. Deliberately telling a falsehood is not even close to leaving out the hurtful part of why you're not coming. Saying she needs some downtime is a lot nicer than saying she doesn't like hanging out with your kid. Unless you've never ever told a white lie then you are calling yourself a liar..

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Lady Gaga Snerd


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She can not come over to play now. Really not sure what is so hard about that.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

The choice isn't to lie or to be "truthful" and hurt someone's feelings. One can be truthful and not lie and also needlessly hurt someone as well.

 Really?  How about when someone asks you flat out if you like their haircut and you actually hate it?  You are either going to have to be honest and hurt their feelings, prevaricate (which is what was done in the OP) or tell a white lie.

I don't believe for one single second that any of you have not and would not spare the friend's feelings.  



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Apples and oranges. The LW wasn't asked "do you like my daughter". She asked her to come over to play. I suppose the LW can say "oh your daughter is a stupid, butt faced moron" if she wants too. So, that's an option i suppose. She wasn't asked "what do you think of my daughter".
Your friend directly asking you if you like her haircut is completely different. You can say "i really liked your old haircut better" or whatver. Or, i guess you can say "no the new haircut makes you look like a fat cow". There are many ways to be honest with someone.


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In the haircut situation I'm ok with lying a little bit. The hair won't grow back over night and there's no sense in making someone feel insecure about their looks.

In the case of the play date I doubt the kids mother really wants to know the truth , that the other parent thinks her kid is devil spawn. So being vague and no Sallie can't play today is kinder.

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The difference is the intent. Whether you intend to deceive. It is deceit that is wrong.

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I taught DD that she doesn't have to explain herself to everyone about everything. If someone invites you somewhere, all they need to know is if you are coming or not coming. You don't have to explain the why of whether you are or your aren't. You can if you wish to but it isn't required. So, no you don't have to lie about either. Just be say what you are doing and then shut up. If people could learn to just make a statement of Yes i can or no i cannot and then shut up, their lives would get so much easier! lol

Very smart!



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"How about when someone asks you flat out if you like their haircut and you actually hate it?"

For me, this depends on how this question is asked.

"Do you like my haircut?" would get an honest response. I don't have to like it. I can think the haircut is horrid but still becomes the other person. I might ask for clarification on what exactly they're asking - do I, personally, like it or do I like it on them.

"Does this haircut look good on me?" still gets an honest response but also gets an explanation. I assume a person is asking so they know if the cut becomes them or not. Lying to them would be a disservice. In these situations, if there is something about the cut that just doesn't suit them, I will tell them. Likewise, I will also point out the strong points of the cut. If it looks fantastic on them, I will say so.



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If it were a close friend that asked me how I liked their haircut I would be kind but try and be honest if it wasn't the best look. I've been told when I had a kind of freaky hair doo before. It otherwise why go there. If the person likes their hair that's all that matters.
I hated that hackjob that Kate Goslin had years ago but obviously someone liked it!

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