TOTALLY GEEKED!

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Bus stops and tracks and gets hit by train.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

This is terrible - why the hell would a charter bus STOP on railroad tracks and sit there? If it was broken down - get the people off the bus. Geez.

And I really don't like the characterization of the headlines across the internet - train hits bus and kills 3, kills 4 - it sounds like they are blaming the train. Trains can't stop quickly, that's why you are supposed to watch for them before you cross the tracks.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

It sounds like the bus got stuck on the tracks? Said there is an embankment there. A delivery truck had previously gotten stuck there.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
It sounds like the bus got stuck on the tracks? Said there is an embankment there. A delivery truck had previously gotten stuck there.

That doesn't explain why you don't get off the bus.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

I agree. They should have some type of safety rules that everyone should have to get off the bus in that situation. The bus driver may have been attempting to rock the bus back and forth over the tracks. Obviously, we don't know what he was thinking but get people off the bus first.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

My late grand parents took a few of those senior trips.

I don't know how long the bus was there before the train, but you can't move some of those seniors fast enough.

It's a tragic situation.

Tinydancer · Guru

I think it happened all too quickly. The bus tried to cross, got stuck, the gate came down and the train hit. The bus was only stuck for 5 minutes according to witnesses so there wasn't much time to decide. The worst timing ever and such a tragic event.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Yes, i think the bus got stuck, the driver was trying to rock it back and forth over the tracks and then it happened. He probably thought he could rock it and lurch it forward in the time it would have taken to open the bus doors and escort people out. Maybe it was pouring down rain and people didnt' want to get out, etc. i am sure there are a lot questions that need answered. These situations always seem obvious after the fact but at the time, not so much.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

I think 5 minutes is more than enough time to get people off the bus. Regardless of why the bus was stuck - it is still not the train crew's fault the accident happened.

FNW · Guru

Horrible and tragic.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Obviously, the driver made the wrong decision.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Depends, how many people?

Are there walkers, canes, involved?

Older people don't move so fast.

What if half the people were off and others making their way to get off when the train hit?

How many more would have been killed if they hadnt been in their seats on impact?

It's very easy to say what "shoulda,coulda,woulda" but there really is no way of knowing.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Yes, it could easily take several minutes to unload. People don't move very fast if they don't realize they are in danger. There would have been some people grabbing their bags, etc. Then, if they got hit unloading, then we would be saying why didn't he just reverse gear and rock it over and get it off the tracks.

Tignanello · My dog name is, Sasha!

I would have been out the back door before anyone could blink. I come from a small town that has about 6 sets of tracks running through the center. 3 on each side of the river. There's a track in your way? Get the hell out of there.

FNW · Guru

I hate driving over train tracks. There's one between my office and some restaurants and I hold my breath...

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Tignanello wrote:
I would have been out the back door before anyone could blink. I come from a small town that has about 6 sets of tracks running through the center. 3 on each side of the river. There's a track in your way? Get the hell out of there.

So, if the driver is trying to move the bus by gearing it up and down you would just jump out the back?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

I would think you would get as many off as you could. You don't just sit there for 5 minutes. You get the people off and THEN try to move the bus if you have time.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Ok - so I read some more articles. There is a low clearance warning sign for that railroad crossing because it is elevated. The center of the bus couldn't clear it because it was so low to the ground. Some people started to try to get off the bus once the lights started flashing and the gate came down while the bus driver continued to try to get the bus off the tracks (don't know how that works - old people jumping from a bus that moving back and forth).

Tignanello · My dog name is, Sasha!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Tignanello wrote:
I would have been out the back door before anyone could blink. I come from a small town that has about 6 sets of tracks running through the center. 3 on each side of the river. There's a track in your way? Get the hell out of there.
So, if the driver is trying to move the bus by gearing it up and down you would just jump out the back?

Or the front. Whichever is closer.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

It was a bus full of senior citizens. Sounds easy to jump out but in reality for them, maybe not so much. Maybe some of them tried too, who knows?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
It was a bus full of senior citizens. Sounds easy to jump out but in reality for them, maybe not so much. Maybe some of them tried too, who knows?

On their way to a casino for a weekend of fun filled gambling. I doubt highly they were the invalid kind.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
It was a bus full of senior citizens. Sounds easy to jump out but in reality for them, maybe not so much. Maybe some of them tried too, who knows?
On their way to a casino for a weekend of fun filled gambling. I doubt highly they were the invalid kind.

Well, heck. Last time i was in a casino, which was recently, there were a lot of elder people with walkers and with oxygen tanks.

FNW · Guru

Those are the kinds I see, too, LGS, at the casinos. Lots of wheelchairs and walkers. They bus them in from the nursing homes for a little entertainment.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

As I said, my late grandparents took a few of these trips.

These are group trips, seniors pay a fee to go, most travel with at least one nurse.

These groups go all over, with stops at most major attractions.

The trips can last a weekend to a month or more.

There are those with walkers, canes, and pulling tanks.

FNW · Guru

Heck, I've toured with Tauck Tours with healthy, fit people who take forever to get off the bus.

burns07 · Guru

what is the warning interval?--the time from the signs coming down until the train enters the crossing?--if they were there 5 minutes the train could have been three to five miles away when the bus entered the intersection and got stuck--something doesn't make sense in the whole news report--am guessing it's early yet

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

FNW wrote:
Heck, I've toured with Tauck Tours with healthy, fit people who take forever to get off the bus.

If healthy, fit people are stupid enough to dawdle when a train is heading down the tracks at them, then I think Darwin is taking care of that one.

burns07 · Guru

depending on the crossing, by the time they could see the train it may have already been too late--normally the train is sounding its horn anywhere from a 1/4 to a 1/2 mile away--not a lot of time at a closing speed of 35-40mph or so but at least SOME time--did they not hear the horn?--am wondering why the train's operator didn't react more quickly--were the crossing arms prevented from descending completely(stopped mid-descent by the bus roof?)and therefore no warning was transmitted to the train's crew?--something in the whole story just doesn't wash--tragic to be sure

WYSIWYG · Guru

This is tragic, and my prayers go out to those that lost loved ones and any that were injured, including the mental stress caused to the train's driver.

The impact may not have been avoidable, but surely the deaths should have been. It doesn't take 5 minutes to get people off of a bus in an emergency, even the elderly.

As soon as the bus was stuck, it should have been IMMEDIATELY evacuated. Then the driver could have started trying to rock it off or whatever, with one person looking up and down the track as a lookout.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

It can take 5 minutes for a perfectly healthy, fast moving, young person to realize what is happening and get out of a car.

But we want seniors, 65 and up, to scramble, immediately off a bus?

I bet some were asleep and had no clue what was happening, others talking and not paying attention.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

lilyofcourse wrote:
It can take 5 minutes for a perfectly healthy, fast moving, young person to realize what is happening and get out of a car.

But we want seniors, 65 and up, to scramble, immediately off a bus?

I bet some were asleep and had no clue what was happening, others talking and not paying attention.

No. Sorry, but no. If it takes a healthy, fast moving person 5 minutes to get the hell off a bus stuck on a track, they are a moron. MORON.

It should not take longer than 30 seconds for the bus driver to realize they are stuck, open the door and tell everyone to get off the bus. And tell them LOUDLY and without delay.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

WYSIWYG wrote:
This is tragic, and my prayers go out to those that lost loved ones and any that were injured, including the mental stress caused to the train's driver.

The impact may not have been avoidable, but surely the deaths should have been. It doesn't take 5 minutes to get people off of a bus in an emergency, even the elderly.

As soon as the bus was stuck, it should have been IMMEDIATELY evacuated. Then the driver could have started trying to rock it off or whatever, with one person looking up and down the track as a lookout.

Yes. Completely and absolutely. There should have been no delay.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Lawyerlady wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
It can take 5 minutes for a perfectly healthy, fast moving, young person to realize what is happening and get out of a car.

But we want seniors, 65 and up, to scramble, immediately off a bus?

I bet some were asleep and had no clue what was happening, others talking and not paying attention.

No. Sorry, but no. If it takes a healthy, fast moving person 5 minutes to get the hell off a bus stuck on a track, they are a moron. MORON.
It should not take longer than 30 seconds for the bus driver to realize they are stuck, open the door and tell everyone to get off the bus. And tell them LOUDLY and without delay.

I disagree.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

The train was also going much slower than it's speed limit.

The train was traveling 26 mph — almost 20 mph less than the track's speed limit — when the crew put on an emergency brake about 510 feet from the bus, Sumwalt said. The train had slowed to 19 mph by the time it hit the bus. It pushed the mangled motor coach about 200 feet down the tracks.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

lilyofcourse wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
It can take 5 minutes for a perfectly healthy, fast moving, young person to realize what is happening and get out of a car.

But we want seniors, 65 and up, to scramble, immediately off a bus?

I bet some were asleep and had no clue what was happening, others talking and not paying attention.

No. Sorry, but no. If it takes a healthy, fast moving person 5 minutes to get the hell off a bus stuck on a track, they are a moron. MORON.
It should not take longer than 30 seconds for the bus driver to realize they are stuck, open the door and tell everyone to get off the bus. And tell them LOUDLY and without delay.
I disagree.

Alright, I'm going to go outside, walk to my car, get in it, get back out and come back to the computer.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

It took me 49.13 seconds and I walked across my kitchen, dining room, foyer, out the down, down the sidewalk to the garage, got in my car, got out of my car, and came back the same way.

That's less than a minute.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

And that was you doing something you've done many, many times in a known situation, without any mobility issues or possible cumbersome equipment to deal with.

The average response time go a situation is about 30 seconds.

That's the time it takes for your brain to register that something is wrong and you need to take action.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

lilyofcourse wrote:
And that was you doing something you've done many, many times in a known situation, without any mobility issues or possible cumbersome equipment to deal with.

The average response time go a situation is about 30 seconds.

That's the time it takes for your brain to register that something is wrong and you need to take action.

And that would leave 4 and a half minutes to DO something. Five minutes is a long longer than you obviously think it is.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Lawyerlady wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
And that was you doing something you've done many, many times in a known situation, without any mobility issues or possible cumbersome equipment to deal with.

The average response time go a situation is about 30 seconds.

That's the time it takes for your brain to register that something is wrong and you need to take action.

And that would leave 4 and a half minutes to DO something. Five minutes is a long longer than you obviously think it is.

I know exactly how long 5 minutes is.

I don't think you are taking the ability of actually moving elderly people into account.

People who don't move so fast.

And you realize, 1 person recognizes danger, then forms and executes a reaction, well then all the others have to recognize the danger and then form and execute a reaction.

5 minutes is not a lot of time.

Another thing, COULD they get off?

Those buses have 1 door.

If it was stuck, was the bottom step too far from the ground?

That's a possibility.

I think it's really easy to say what another should do, but until we are in that situation, we only have an idea.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

lilyofcourse wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
And that was you doing something you've done many, many times in a known situation, without any mobility issues or possible cumbersome equipment to deal with.

The average response time go a situation is about 30 seconds.

That's the time it takes for your brain to register that something is wrong and you need to take action.

And that would leave 4 and a half minutes to DO something. Five minutes is a long longer than you obviously think it is.
I know exactly how long 5 minutes is.
I don't think you are taking the ability of actually moving elderly people into account.
People who don't move so fast.
And you realize, 1 person recognizes danger, then forms and executes a reaction, well then all the others have to recognize the danger and then form and execute a reaction.
5 minutes is not a lot of time.

Another thing, COULD they get off?
Those buses have 1 door.
If it was stuck, was the bottom step too far from the ground?
That's a possibility.

I think it's really easy to say what another should do, but until we are in that situation, we only have an idea.

Perhaps you don't remember what you said. You said even a healthy, fast moving person couldn't get off the bus in 5 minutes.

However, whether or not they all could have gotten off doesn't mean you don't try. Nobody tried to get off that bus until the last minute. The moment the driver realized the bus was stuck on the tracks - they should have started evacuating and that didn't happen. And some of those people were only in their early 60s. And does that bus look like it takes wheelchairs, etc? I think you are making invalids without any evidence of that. Buses are required by law to have emergency exit procedures, and if 48 people can't get off a damn bus in 5 minutes prior to any accident occurring, there is a problem with the bus.

Furthermore, I've seen pictures of that track crossing, and while it has a low clearance, it is not high. And the problem was that the bus was too low, so that's not going to make the exit too high.

REGARDLESS, the point is that is it not the train's fault. The train was driving well under it's speed limit, there was a sign posted warning of low clearance, by the time the train hit the bus, it had managed to slow to 19 miles per hour. The bus and/or the driver of the bus are the ones at fault here.

This is a picture of the scene - you can see the crossing and it is not a major hump.

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Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Better picture -

This is the Main Street railroad crossing in Biloxi. A "low ground clearance" sign warns drivers of the potentially hazardous hump ahead.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Personally, I feel the design of the buses is at fault. The should not have a clearance that low. There are hills, ruts, humps and everything else all over the place. Either design the bus to handle common road types or make sure your route avoids such issues.

BTW - this happened to another bus at the same crossing last year - and the people were evacuated from the bus immediately.

Image may contain: outdoor

Cheerios4606 · Guru

The road at this crossing is what is causing this problem. I heard on the news last night that there are warning signs indicating the grade of the road does not allow for busses to cross it safely but this bus did anyway.

Looks to me like the city needs to redo the roadway to allow proper travel of vehicles.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Cheerios4606 wrote:
The road at this crossing is what is causing this problem. I heard on the news last night that there are warning signs indicating the grade of the road does not allow for busses to cross it safely but this bus did anyway.

Looks to me like the city needs to redo the roadway to allow proper travel of vehicles.

Or buses and tractor trailers need to take a different route.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I still disagree.

I think it is easy to throw shoulda, coulda, woulda around after the fact and without being in that situation.

And no, I don't believe a healthy person with no issues could have gotten off and away, out of harms way, in time.

That bus was pushed down the track.

If there were a bunch of people trying to get off and away, there is a very good chance a lot more would be dead.

I think staying on the bus, although it goes against our way of thinking, probably saved more lives than being off and trying to get out of the way would have.

We don't agree, that's fine.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Even if they were stuck, the concept of danger didnt register. If there were no croosing lights on or anything they would most likely not have gotten off the bus with any sense of urgency. By the time they would have seen the train its too late.

Momala · Great cook-happy wife-superb fisherman

From the pictures, I see lights, but not barrier arms.
The combo of a low-slung bus and an unusual hump
for the tracks made for a terrible tragedy. I think
the city should re-design that crossing immediately.

WYSIWYG · Guru

The average response time go a situation is about 30 seconds.
- lilyofcourse

_______________________________

I'm sorry, but I have to call BS on this. Google "Perception-Reaction time" and you will come across many studies that say the average person reacts within under 2 seconds after a situation is presented.

30 seconds is a lot longer than most people believe it to be. The average person can read several paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence, aloud, in 30 seconds.

WYSIWYG · Guru

From the pictures, I see lights, but not barrier arms.
- Momala

_____________________________

If you look closely at the first picture that Lawyerlady posted, look about equal to the first freight car, directly behind the third engine-car. Below and to the Right, about one small car length from the train, crossing the road, you can BARELY see the warning arm (well, I can see it, anyway), and the third picture (the one from last time a bus got stuck there), you can clearly see the mechanism for an arm, even though the arm is definitely missing in that image.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

And, if the bus driver evacuated the bus while leaving the bus on the tracks, the people would be saying, why didn't he just reverse gear and get it off the tracks? Evacuating and leaving the bus sitting on the tracks could have possibly resulted in fatalities on the train.
However, i agree there needs to be procedure and protocol for bus drivers. I think trying to drive and avoid all railroad tracks is a bit silly. And, almost impossible where i live. We still have some tracks that have nothing but a railroad crossing sign with not even a blinker light. I usually pull up, open my window and listen for a train, then proceed over the tracks.
I still see people driving thru other intersections where the railroad light is blinking. Some have blinking lights but no arm. I have even seen people drive around the arms.

TOTALLY GEEKED!

Train hits bus, killing 4 passengers on senior center trip