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Hooker

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Houston's embattled equal rights ordinance took another legal turn this week when it surfaced that city attorneys, in an unusual step, subpoenaed sermons given by local pastors who oppose the law and are tied to the conservative Christian activists who have sued the city.

Opponents of the equal rights ordinance are hoping to force a repeal referendum when they get their day in court in January, claiming City Attorney David Feldman wrongly determined they had not gathered enough valid signatures to qualify for the ballot.

City attorneys issued subpoenas last month as part of the case's discovery phase, seeking, among other communications, "all speeches, presentations, or sermons related to HERO, the Petition, Mayor Annise Parker, homosexuality, or gender identity prepared by, delivered by, revised by, or approved by you or in your possession."

The subpoenas were issued to pastors and religious leaders who have been vocal in opposing the ordinance: Dave Welch, Hernan Castano, Magda Hermida, Khanh Huynh and Steve Riggle. The Alliance Defending Freedom, a Christian legal organization known for its role in defending same-sex marriage bans, filed a motion Monday on behalf of the pastors seeking to quash the subpoenas, and in a press announcement called it a "witch hunt."

The city's lawyers will face a high bar for proving the information in the sermons is essential to their case, said Charles Rhodes, a South Texas College of Law professor. The pastors are not named parties in the suit, and the "Church Autonomy Doctrine" offers fairly broad protections for internal church deliberations, he said.

Calling it an "unusual but not unprecedented" subpoena request, Rhodes said the city would stand a better chance of getting the sermons if it were a criminal case in which the message or directive in the sermons prompted a specific criminal action.

Still, he said, the city likely will get a boost because many of the sermons are broadcast or recorded and are intended to be shared with the public.

"This is unusual to see it come up in a pure political controversy," Rhodes said. "The city is going to have to prove there is something very particular in the sermons that does not come up anywhere else."

To that end, Feldman said the pastors made their sermons relevant to the case by using the pulpit to do political organizing. That included encouraging congregation members to sign petitions and help gather signatures for equal rights ordinance foes, who largely take issue with the rights extended to gay and transgender residents.

Training video

Feldman pointed to a training video that surfaced this summer showing Welch, of the Houston Area Pastor Council, explaining the rules signature gatherers needed to follow during a church presentation. With aPowerPoint presentation behind him, Welch tells the audience the city's stringent repeal referendum process "makes it more challenging for us" to qualify for the ballot.

Ordinance supporters said the video proved the signature gatherers were aware of the rules but flouted them anyway.

"If someone is speaking from the pulpit and it's political speech, then it's not going to be protected," Feldman said.

Plaintiff Jared Woodfill disagreed, saying the subpoenas impinge on protected religious freedoms.

"This is the city trampling on the First Amendment rights of pastors in their churches," said Woodfill, a former chairman of the Harris County Republican Party.

Woodfill and other critics pledged to take the issue to the voters after the City Council approved the ordinance in May, banning discrimination among businesses that serve the public, private employers, in housing and in city employment and city contracting. Religious institutions are exempt.

City Secretary Anna Russell initially counted enough signatures to qualify the opponents' petition, with about 600 more than the required 17,269 signatures. Feldman then looked through all of the petition pages to see if those who gathered signatures met city charter requirements - namely, whether signature gatherers were Houston residents and whether they signed the petition pages.

That process disqualified more than half the 5,199 pages. In their suit, opponents claimed Russell's original count should be the most important one and alleged Feldman had inserted himself into the process illegally.

Filed appeals

In August, opponents agreed to drop their request for an emergency temporary injunction, aimed at forcing a referendum this November. The group has filed several appeals in an effort to expedite the case, including a pending appeal at the Texas Supreme Court.

The subpoenas, however, are tied to the January district court date and request more than just sermons. The requests touch on a wide range of communications among the pastors, with their congregations and with city officials about the ordinance, including "any discussion about whether or how HERO does or does not impact restroom access."

Opponents frequently have cited the perceived threat of male sexual predators dressed in drag entering women's restrooms, dubbing the measure the "Sexual Predator Protection Act."

The ordinance protects transgender residents' ability to use the restroom consistent with their gender expression, regardless of their biological sex, but puts the onus on the individual to prove he or she was a victim of bias.

The city also is seeking any information about payments and incentives offered to people contracted to circulate the petitions, and the tax information associated with those payments.

The city does not intend to back down from its request and is working on a response to the Alliance Defending Freedom's motion, Feldman said.

 

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/City-subpoenas-sermons-in-ERO-court-case-5822800.php



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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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Oh geez O4, you know this isn't for real. It wont happen in America. Cause this is America. And we have that piece of paper that says it wont happen. You have this wrong.

Want to see my sarcastic face? evileye



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Itty bitty's Grammy

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"If someone is speaking from the pulpit and it's political speech, then it's not going to be protected," Feldman said.

This.

flan

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Guru

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Political speech isn't protected in America? Hmm... when did that happen? Funny I thought there was that thing called Free Speech.

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Why arent churches taxed? If you want to be political...pay to play.

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And there it is. The excuse for why this is ok.



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Hooker

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flan327 wrote:

"If someone is speaking from the pulpit and it's political speech, then it's not going to be protected," Feldman said.

This.

flan


 How is preaching against homosexuality political speech?



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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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Ohfour wrote:
flan327 wrote:

"If someone is speaking from the pulpit and it's political speech, then it's not going to be protected," Feldman said.

This.

flan


 How is preaching against homosexuality political speech?


Cause that's hate talk and we cant have none of that. Forget it that it has been preached against since the beginning of time.  



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Itty bitty's Grammy

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Ohfour wrote:
flan327 wrote:

"If someone is speaking from the pulpit and it's political speech, then it's not going to be protected," Feldman said.

This.

flan


 How is preaching against homosexuality political speech?


 It depends.

And I admit I just skimmed the article...

flan



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Hooker

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WOW...REALLY?????

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Itty bitty's Grammy

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To that end, Feldman said the pastors made their sermons relevant to the case by using the pulpit to do political organizing. That included encouraging congregation members to sign petitions and help gather signatures for equal rights ordinance foes, who largely take issue with the rights extended to gay and transgender residents.

flan

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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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Yes. I see nothing wrong with urging your congregation to live what they believe.

To exercise their Faith.

But of course that is against anything the world believes.

Freedom of Religion is dying.

Yes. In America.

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Itty bitty's Grammy

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lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. I see nothing wrong with urging your congregation to live what they believe.

To exercise their Faith.

But of course that is against anything the world believes.

Freedom of Religion is dying.

Yes. In America.


 Yes, Lily, we know, we know...

flan



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Hooker

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So preaching against something that is called a sin in the very book you preach on is being persecuted. Nice...

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Guru

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Uhm, maybe if you prayed about it God would change this travesty. Maybe the homosexuals prayers were answered....interesting no?

I mean if the bigots and the homosexuals are praying for opposite results and the homosexuals agenda is supported, is that maybe god telling you he made his decision and y'all better just deal with it? Because that's what I'm going to believe.

Then again I'm one of those rascally atheists so there's that.


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VoiceOfReason wrote:

Uhm, maybe if you prayed about it God would change this travesty. Maybe the homosexuals prayers were answered....interesting no?

I mean if the bigots and the homosexuals are praying for opposite results and the homosexuals agenda is supported, is that maybe god telling you he made his decision and y'all better just deal with it? Because that's what I'm going to believe.

Then again I'm one of those rascally atheists so there's that.


 Don't forget "exhibitionist."

evileye

flan



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Hooker

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It's so interesting when liberals rejoice when freedom of speech is restricted.

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Hooker

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I guess homosexuals DID pray to silence others. It's what the liberals do best...

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Guru

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Rejoice rejoice rejoice!!!

Its so interesting when those who support hate speech are pissed at being silenced.

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Itty bitty's Grammy

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Ohfour wrote:

It's so interesting when liberals rejoice when freedom of speech is restricted.


 Not what's happening here.

flan



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Itty bitty's Grammy

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VoiceOfReason wrote:

Rejoice rejoice rejoice!!!

Its so interesting when those who support hate speech are pissed at being silenced.


 I you!

Feisty Woman!!!!

flan



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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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Hate speech.

Jesus was guilty of it too then.

I am not surprised by any of this. You can see it in that Bible you like to discredit.

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Guru

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So all homosexuals are liberal and they're good at prayer. Even though liberals hate god and dont pray. Huh. Seems legit.

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Hooker

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You're the one that suggested it.

And yes, every practicing homosexual I know is liberal.

Preaching from the Bible is not hate speech. Another liberal fantasy.

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Guru

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Practicing homosexual? That's humorous.

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Guru

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Huh. Isnt thereca big gay gop guy with a sexual harassment suit threatening his campaign? Oh yes there is!

The big boss at my bank? Gay and republican and Christian. The horror!!

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Hooker

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Yes, practicing homosexual. We have several homosexuals members in our church. They have quite a large support group. They are homosexual, but do not practice. What's so hard to comprehend about that?

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Guru

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Why in the world do you know that?!?! And are there people who.live together without the benefit of marriage and do you know their bedroom habits too??

Damn Christians in your church are freaky little voyeurs arent they?!?

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I'm sure they don't practice either. Hey! I have a bridge here in AZ that you might be interested in...

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Hooker

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VoiceOfReason wrote:

Why in the world do you know that?!?! And are there people who.live together without the benefit of marriage and do you know their bedroom habits too??

Damn Christians in your church are freaky little voyeurs arent they?!?


 They are very very vocal about their mission.  What's so freaky about that?  They are letting people know that they don't HAVE to live in sin.  So now that's unacceptable? 



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Regular

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So do the "practicing" homosexuals prevent you from practicing your faith??

If not, then why would you want to use your faith to prevent homosexuals from practicing their love?

Can these 2 practicing "rights" not co-exist without constantly trying to deny the other?

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Shenanigans. Or also known as "doth protest too much"



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Hooker

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Meh, I don't give a rats ass if you believe me or not. I've never spoken an untruth here. Maybe you should come to my church sometime...You definitely need it...

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Guru

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I would burst into flames my friend. Save yourself.

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Hooker

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chillepeppa wrote:

So do the "practicing" homosexuals prevent you from practicing your faith??

If not, then why would you want to use your faith to prevent homosexuals from practicing their love?

Can these 2 practicing "rights" not co-exist without constantly trying to deny the other?


 Why, yes, yes they do...when they tell my pastor what he can and cannot preach about...



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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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The problem here is taking the sermons and calling them hate speech. It isn't hate speech. It is biblical teachings.

This is what is called persecution.

This is what it looks like to lose some of the freedom of religion.

This is just the beginning.



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VoiceOfReason wrote:

I would burst into flames my friend. Save yourself.


 You just might get a dose of that Holy Spirit you so need...



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Guru

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Hmm. Thanks for the offer, but I'm good.

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Regular

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I don't understand? Can you not go to church anymore?

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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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Going to church and having your sermon censored is not freedom of religion.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

Going to church and having your sermon censored is not freedom of religion.


 Exactly.....



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Regular

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Being homosexual and having your personal bedroom antics dictated doesn't seem so fair either...

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chillepeppa wrote:

Being homosexual and having your personal bedroom antics dictated doesn't seem so fair either...


Who is dictating?  No one.  They are preaching against a sin.  So now speech is dictating?



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Regular

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So homosexuals are fine as long as they don't canoodle? So telling them to not canoodle is not dictating?

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chillepeppa wrote:

Being homosexual and having your personal bedroom antics dictated doesn't seem so fair either...


You bedroom antics are not protected by the constitution either.

Fair is for children. Dividing the cookies and milk.

We are supposed to have freedom of religion. That means if you don't like it then you go to another where you do like it.

But it doesn't mean that it gets controlled by outside forces. 

 



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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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chillepeppa wrote:

So homosexuals are fine as long as they don't canoodle? So telling them to not canoodle is not dictating?


No. It isn't. Because they are not going to be punished by the law if they do.

However having to have your sermons approved by the law is dictating.

The lack of understanding is astounding.  



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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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lilyofcourse wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:

So homosexuals are fine as long as they don't canoodle? So telling them to not canoodle is not dictating?


No. It isn't. Because they are not going to be punished by the law if they do.

However having to have your sermons approved by the law is dictating.

The lack of understanding is astounding.  


 Yeah - that pretty much sums it up. 



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Hooker

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lilyofcourse wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:

So homosexuals are fine as long as they don't canoodle? So telling them to not canoodle is not dictating?


No. It isn't. Because they are not going to be punished by the law if they do.

However having to have your sermons approved by the law is dictating.

The lack of understanding is astounding.  


 I know, right?????



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Guru

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And they can continue to tell us how it isn't going to affect religious people. Uh huh.

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Regular

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Call it what you want, I still don't see how this isolated incident have impeded your right to practice your religion.

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