TOTALLY GEEKED!

chillepeppa · Regular

RE: And so Religious freedom is no longer...

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

chillepeppa wrote:
But when you are dealing with trying to interfere or change laws (and I am talking ANYBODY now, not just churches), isn't some form of legal action to be expected?

I'm not against religious rights, and it could be that they are in the wrong, but is it illegal for them to request this information?

What do you think the purpose of gathering it would be? Do you think they just want to see or maybe they are wanting to use it to mount a law suit?

I think it is an attempt to control what is said in the pulpit.

Government has no place in the pulpit. None.

chillepeppa · Regular

So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?

Lindley · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
They don't want the Church to interfere with the State supposedly but have no qualms whatsoever about the State interfering with the Church!

I agree. This is a slippery slope and it sounds like to me the mayor has a personal agenda to prove. In communist countries the state censors speeches and all other kinds of communication. We have a friend who was born and raised in a communist country and is amazed how quickly americans are letting their rights being taken away. We don't agree with something we are ok with the state punishing someone or a organization, but the same thing can happen to you. Letting our freedoms be taken away a little at a time is like putting a frog in water and turning up the heat, by the time the frog realizes it is getting hot it is too late. I do know there are consequences for what we say, but it shouldn't be the government giving out those consequences. If you don't like a celebrity's political opinions, don't by a ticket to movie or concert. Don't shop at a chain or don't go to Church but the government should stay out of it.

I do realize it is different if you threaten anyone with harm it is different. That is a law but personal opinions need to stay out of it. Should the state ask for all mosques to give them all their sermons too?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

chillepeppa wrote:
My argument was mainly about how one incident, not yet fully concluded, has the sky falling...

Consider the source.

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Well, I honestly don't know a pastor who uses notes or preprinted sermons.

But asking for them in advance seems suspect.

And it does seem like a step toward censorship.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
My argument was mainly about how one incident, not yet fully concluded, has the sky falling...
I answered that.

The sky falls on average 3 - 4 times every week.

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
Well, I honestly don't know a pastor who uses notes or preprinted sermons.

But asking for them in advance seems suspect.

And it does seem like a step toward censorship.

Both pastors in my Meeting do...every single time.

flan

chillepeppa · Regular

lilyofcourse wrote:
Well, I honestly don't know a pastor who uses notes or preprinted sermons.

But asking for them in advance seems suspect.

And it does seem like a step toward censorship.

From what I understand, they are subpoenaed for stuff that was most likely already been presented to the public. If it was "from the heart", then the city is out of luck.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Well, I honestly don't know a pastor who uses notes or preprinted sermons.

But asking for them in advance seems suspect.

And it does seem like a step toward censorship.
Both pastors in my Meeting do...every single time.
flan

Well good for them.

None of the preachers I have ever known have. And I have known more than a few.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Well, I honestly don't know a pastor who uses notes or preprinted sermons.

But asking for them in advance seems suspect.

And it does seem like a step toward censorship.
Both pastors in my Meeting do...every single time.
flan
Well good for them.
None of the preachers I have ever known have. And I have known more than a few.

Every Catholic priest whose Mass I attended used notes. I could not even count how many that would be.

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
My argument was mainly about how one incident, not yet fully concluded, has the sky falling...
I answered that.
The sky falls on average 3 - 4 times every week.
flan

And here we have a mayor actively requesting sermons to see what is in them and how it will affect her agenda.

No, this isn't an innocent request. I don't care how rosy those glasses are that you are looking through.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

chillepeppa wrote:
But when you are dealing with trying to interfere or change laws (and I am talking ANYBODY now, not just churches), isn't some form of legal action to be expected?

I'm not against religious rights, and it could be that they are in the wrong, but is it illegal for them to request this information?

Municipalities don't get to use the legal system to retaliate against citizens for exercising their first amendment rights.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Well, I honestly don't know a pastor who uses notes or preprinted sermons.

But asking for them in advance seems suspect.

And it does seem like a step toward censorship.
Both pastors in my Meeting do...every single time.
flan
Well good for them.
None of the preachers I have ever known have. And I have known more than a few.
Every Catholic priest whose Mass I attended used notes. I could not even count how many that would be.
flan

The notes used by the pastors I have known are in that big book called the Bible.

chillepeppa · Regular

So their subpoena is illegal? Can the opposing lawyers not block or appeal the subpoena?

chillepeppa · Regular

lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Well, I honestly don't know a pastor who uses notes or preprinted sermons.

But asking for them in advance seems suspect.

And it does seem like a step toward censorship.
Both pastors in my Meeting do...every single time.
flan
Well good for them.
None of the preachers I have ever known have. And I have known more than a few.
Every Catholic priest whose Mass I attended used notes. I could not even count how many that would be.
flan
The notes used by the pastors I have known are in that big book called the Bible.

Public speaking is an art, and more people than not do need a hand every now and then. Not saying you are lying, but not all pastors are equally gifted to be able to lead a flock without even a shorthand back-up...

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

chillepeppa wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Well, I honestly don't know a pastor who uses notes or preprinted sermons.

But asking for them in advance seems suspect.

And it does seem like a step toward censorship.
Both pastors in my Meeting do...every single time.
flan
Well good for them.
None of the preachers I have ever known have. And I have known more than a few.
Every Catholic priest whose Mass I attended used notes. I could not even count how many that would be.
flan
The notes used by the pastors I have known are in that big book called the Bible.
Public speaking is an art, and more people than not do need a hand every now and then. Not saying you are lying, but not all pastors are equally gifted to be able to lead a flock without even a shorthand back-up...

The only thing I have ever seen any of them do is maybe have a list of the verses they using. So they could turn to them quickly.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?

It's none of their business!

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Hah! I think all the pastors should respond to the subpoena with a Bible!

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Lawyerlady wrote:
Hah! I think all the pastors should respond to the subpoena with a Bible!

I do too! That would be awesome!

chillepeppa · Regular

Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!

But still legal?

Ohfour · Hooker

chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?

I don't see how...they have no right to ask for that.

chillepeppa · Regular

Ohfour wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?
I don't see how...they have no right to ask for that.

Then how does it work? How can illegal subpoenas be issued? If it could be relevant to a case, does that make a difference? Wouldn't the opposing lawyer then be tasked to respond to that effect?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?

I really can't see how it is legal. That's like walking into your house and demanding to see your journals.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

chillepeppa wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?
I don't see how...they have no right to ask for that.
Then how does it work? How can illegal subpoenas be issued? If it could be relevant to a case, does that make a difference? Wouldn't the opposing lawyer then be tasked to respond to that effect?

The city lawyers issued the subpoenas, which now puts the burden on the pastors to fight them. So, yes, the churches very well could win, but not until they have spent time and money fighting.

chillepeppa · Regular

Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?
I really can't see how it is legal. That's like walking into your house and demanding to see your journals.

So then it is on the lawyers to then respond in kind telling them to take a hike?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?
I really can't see how it is legal. That's like walking into your house and demanding to see your journals.
So then it is on the lawyers to then respond in kind telling them to take a hike?

Yes. They have to file motions to quash the subpoenas, prepare and file briefs, attend court for oral argument, etc.

Ohfour · Hooker

Costing churches lots of money that most do not have...

chillepeppa · Regular

So the city has done nothing illegal, they are just acting douchey?

cadiver · Senior Member

Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?
I really can't see how it is legal. That's like walking into your house and demanding to see your journals.

I think it is over reaching but I can see the some of it being allowed. The city is being sued in how the count of the signatures on the petition was handle. One of the pastors sermons there was a slide presentation on how to collect the signatures. It also sounds like signatures may have also been taken at that time.

Ohfour · Hooker

Huh? I think requesting the transcripts of the sermons is illegal. And douche. But the churches will have to fight to show them that it's illegal...

Ohfour · Hooker

cadiver wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?
I really can't see how it is legal. That's like walking into your house and demanding to see your journals.
I think it is over reaching but I can see the some of it being allowed. The city is being sued in how the count of the signatures on the petition was handle. One of the pastors sermons there was a slide presentation on how to collect the signatures. It also sounds like signatures may have also been taken at that time.

SO? what's the problem? Guarantee some of those churches were polling places.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Ohfour wrote:
cadiver wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?
I really can't see how it is legal. That's like walking into your house and demanding to see your journals.
I think it is over reaching but I can see the some of it being allowed. The city is being sued in how the count of the signatures on the petition was handle. One of the pastors sermons there was a slide presentation on how to collect the signatures. It also sounds like signatures may have also been taken at that time.
SO? what's the problem? Guarantee some of those churches were polling places.

And polling places are run with very strict regulations.

flan

cadiver · Senior Member

Ohfour wrote:
cadiver wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?
I really can't see how it is legal. That's like walking into your house and demanding to see your journals.
I think it is over reaching but I can see the some of it being allowed. The city is being sued in how the count of the signatures on the petition was handle. One of the pastors sermons there was a slide presentation on how to collect the signatures. It also sounds like signatures may have also been taken at that time.
SO? what's the problem? Guarantee some of those churches were polling places.

In a lawsuit over valid signatures the training viedo may be revelant.

Double checking during the traing episode it does not mention signatures being taken.

Ohfour · Hooker

flan327 wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
cadiver wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
So it is illegal then to ask for this information? Have they issued any directives in regards to the content of the sermons?
It's none of their business!
But still legal?
I really can't see how it is legal. That's like walking into your house and demanding to see your journals.
I think it is over reaching but I can see the some of it being allowed. The city is being sued in how the count of the signatures on the petition was handle. One of the pastors sermons there was a slide presentation on how to collect the signatures. It also sounds like signatures may have also been taken at that time.
SO? what's the problem? Guarantee some of those churches were polling places.
And polling places are run with very strict regulations.
flan

So they can be used by the state to decide a law, but they cannot have a say in it? Hypocritical much?

Ohfour · Hooker

Maybe churches should just refuse to allow the city to use them as a polling place. I wonder if the city would try to sue them to make them...

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Ohfour wrote:
Maybe churches should just refuse to allow the city to use them as a polling place. I wonder if the city would try to sue them to make them...

I assume they pay to use them.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

So if the church wants to head a petition, which is a legal right and covered under freedom of speech, they are not to issue instructions in how to do so legally by using a slide presentation or the Bible as a basis for its argument?

Aren't the petitions that are used by the gay rights groups to gain legal standing based on a belief and aren't the collectors taught how to gather signatures through slides and other means of teaching?

I am really finding it hard to believe this is anything other than an attempt at both intimidation and censorship.

Ohfour · Hooker

From Americans United for Separation of Church and State (Liberal thinktank)

Many churches and other houses of worship have taken stands on these issues and lots of others, which is their prerogative. Although federal law prohibits churches from endorsing or opposing candidates, they have the right to speak out on ballot referenda and on other issues, from abortion to zoning.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

That has always been my understanding.

My pastor has used a sermon from time to time to remind the congregation what the Bible says about an issue. But he never told anyone how to vote.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
So if the church wants to head a petition, which is a legal right and covered under freedom of speech, they are not to issue instructions in how to do so legally by using a slide presentation or the Bible as a basis for its argument?

Aren't the petitions that are used by the gay rights groups to gain legal standing based on a belief and aren't the collectors taught how to gather signatures through slides and other means of teaching?

I am really finding it hard to believe this is anything other than an attempt at both intimidation and censorship.

So the Bible covers specifics on filing a petition? Hmm...

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
So if the church wants to head a petition, which is a legal right and covered under freedom of speech, they are not to issue instructions in how to do so legally by using a slide presentation or the Bible as a basis for its argument?

Aren't the petitions that are used by the gay rights groups to gain legal standing based on a belief and aren't the collectors taught how to gather signatures through slides and other means of teaching?

I am really finding it hard to believe this is anything other than an attempt at both intimidation and censorship.
So the Bible covers specifics on filing a petition? Hmm...
flan

Does the Bible cover purgatory?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
So if the church wants to head a petition, which is a legal right and covered under freedom of speech, they are not to issue instructions in how to do so legally by using a slide presentation or the Bible as a basis for its argument?

Aren't the petitions that are used by the gay rights groups to gain legal standing based on a belief and aren't the collectors taught how to gather signatures through slides and other means of teaching?

I am really finding it hard to believe this is anything other than an attempt at both intimidation and censorship.
So the Bible covers specifics on filing a petition? Hmm...
flan
Does the Bible cover purgatory?

You and I both know it doesn't.

flan

Ohfour · Hooker

Does the bible cover birth control or abortion? So churches should have any say on those?

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
So if the church wants to head a petition, which is a legal right and covered under freedom of speech, they are not to issue instructions in how to do so legally by using a slide presentation or the Bible as a basis for its argument?

Aren't the petitions that are used by the gay rights groups to gain legal standing based on a belief and aren't the collectors taught how to gather signatures through slides and other means of teaching?

I am really finding it hard to believe this is anything other than an attempt at both intimidation and censorship.
So the Bible covers specifics on filing a petition? Hmm...
flan
Does the Bible cover purgatory?
You and I both know it doesn't.
flan

Example cause apparently you need one.

The Bible says for man not to lay with another man as he would a woman.

That is using the basis to start a petition that would hopefully help keep same sex marriage from becoming a reality.

Then there would be instruction on how to legally gain and gather signatures.

Is it more clear for you now?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
So if the church wants to head a petition, which is a legal right and covered under freedom of speech, they are not to issue instructions in how to do so legally by using a slide presentation or the Bible as a basis for its argument?

Aren't the petitions that are used by the gay rights groups to gain legal standing based on a belief and aren't the collectors taught how to gather signatures through slides and other means of teaching?

I am really finding it hard to believe this is anything other than an attempt at both intimidation and censorship.
So the Bible covers specifics on filing a petition? Hmm...
flan
Does the Bible cover purgatory?
You and I both know it doesn't.
flan

Well, "petition" actually comes from the Bible. It means to pray for relief. Which, coincidentally, is also used as a legal term. So, the law took those terms from the Bible, not vice versa.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
So if the church wants to head a petition, which is a legal right and covered under freedom of speech, they are not to issue instructions in how to do so legally by using a slide presentation or the Bible as a basis for its argument?

Aren't the petitions that are used by the gay rights groups to gain legal standing based on a belief and aren't the collectors taught how to gather signatures through slides and other means of teaching?

I am really finding it hard to believe this is anything other than an attempt at both intimidation and censorship.
So the Bible covers specifics on filing a petition? Hmm...
flan
Does the Bible cover purgatory?
You and I both know it doesn't.
flan
Example cause apparently you need one.
The Bible says for man not to lay with another man as he would a woman.
That is using the basis to start a petition that would hopefully help keep same sex marriage from becoming a reality.
Then there would be instruction on how to legally gain and gather signatures.
Is it more clear for you now?

And THAT is moving from religion to politics.

Clear for you?

flan

Ohfour · Hooker

Again, according to the SCOTUS:

Many churches and other houses of worship have taken stands on these issues and lots of others, which is their prerogative. Although federal law prohibits churches from endorsing or opposing candidates, they have the right to speak out on ballot referenda and on other issues, from abortion to zoning.

Is it that hard to understand?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
So if the church wants to head a petition, which is a legal right and covered under freedom of speech, they are not to issue instructions in how to do so legally by using a slide presentation or the Bible as a basis for its argument?

Aren't the petitions that are used by the gay rights groups to gain legal standing based on a belief and aren't the collectors taught how to gather signatures through slides and other means of teaching?

I am really finding it hard to believe this is anything other than an attempt at both intimidation and censorship.
So the Bible covers specifics on filing a petition? Hmm...
flan
Does the Bible cover purgatory?
You and I both know it doesn't.
flan
Example cause apparently you need one.
The Bible says for man not to lay with another man as he would a woman.
That is using the basis to start a petition that would hopefully help keep same sex marriage from becoming a reality.
Then there would be instruction on how to legally gain and gather signatures.
Is it more clear for you now?
And THAT is moving from religion to politics.
Clear for you?
flan

No. Church members are allowed to have political views. Churches as a whole cannot endorse candidates. I'm not sure where you get your ideas from. People do not have to choose between having political views and having religious views.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

My political views and religious views totally don't match most of the time.