Today's message, in part, was that Jesus was focused on INCLUDING groups that had previously been EXCLUDED...beginning with Pharisees & tax collectors and coming, in 2014, to homosexuals.
Hatred is NOT the way I choose to live.
But, carry on...
flan
Yet you do. You hate God, you hate Christians, you hate religion, you hate anything that is not in Flans Book of Thought.
So, yes it does appear that you do choose to live your life full of hatred.
But, carry on...
Wow! Did your "God" give you the ability to read my mind?
You know NOTHING about what is in my heart.
flan
-- Edited by flan327 on Monday 20th of October 2014 06:47:18 AM
Today's message, in part, was that Jesus was focused on INCLUDING groups that had previously been EXCLUDED...beginning with Pharisees & tax collectors and coming, in 2014, to homosexuals.
Hatred is NOT the way I choose to live.
But, carry on...
flan
Yet you do. You hate God, you hate Christians, you hate religion, you hate anything that is not in Flans Book of Thought.
So, yes it does appear that you do choose to live your life full of hatred.
But, carry on...
Wow! Did your "God" give you the ability to read my mind?
You know NOTHING about what is in my heart.
flan
-- Edited by flan327 on Monday 20th of October 2014 06:47:18 AM
Today's message, in part, was that Jesus was focused on INCLUDING groups that had previously been EXCLUDED...beginning with Pharisees & tax collectors and coming, in 2014, to homosexuals.
Hatred is NOT the way I choose to live.
But, carry on...
flan
Yet you do. You hate God, you hate Christians, you hate religion, you hate anything that is not in Flans Book of Thought.
So, yes it does appear that you do choose to live your life full of hatred.
But, carry on...
Wow! Did your "God" give you the ability to read my mind?
You know NOTHING about what is in my heart.
flan
-- Edited by flan327 on Monday 20th of October 2014 06:47:18 AM
Today's message, in part, was that Jesus was focused on INCLUDING groups that had previously been EXCLUDED...beginning with Pharisees & tax collectors and coming, in 2014, to homosexuals.
Hatred is NOT the way I choose to live.
But, carry on...
flan
Yet you do. You hate God, you hate Christians, you hate religion, you hate anything that is not in Flans Book of Thought.
So, yes it does appear that you do choose to live your life full of hatred.
But, carry on...
Wow! Did your "God" give you the ability to read my mind?
You know NOTHING about what is in my heart.
flan
-- Edited by flan327 on Monday 20th of October 2014 06:47:18 AM
From your heart, your mouth speaks.
As does yours...
flan
I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
Today's message, in part, was that Jesus was focused on INCLUDING groups that had previously been EXCLUDED...beginning with Pharisees & tax collectors and coming, in 2014, to homosexuals.
Hatred is NOT the way I choose to live.
But, carry on...
flan
Yet you do. You hate God, you hate Christians, you hate religion, you hate anything that is not in Flans Book of Thought.
So, yes it does appear that you do choose to live your life full of hatred.
But, carry on...
Wow! Did your "God" give you the ability to read my mind?
You know NOTHING about what is in my heart.
flan
-- Edited by flan327 on Monday 20th of October 2014 06:47:18 AM
From your heart, your mouth speaks.
As does yours...
flan
I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
This whole thing is sad to me.
I'm very sorry you have to read drivel like this flan.
It's just so fun to see how right we can be. First, we were told we were being paranoid- that ministers would not be required to perform same sex weddings. And now that they are being forced - instead of denouncing it, you are justifying and celebrating it.
Just goes to show you that you really only do consider rights important for those you agree with.
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Don't they own a vegas style chapel? It's not a church right?
Why wouldn't that be a church? They are ordained ministers.
That is what I was wondering. Is this a taxed business.
No. I do not believe a person should have to do anything against their person convictions and beliefs.
Yes it is their business and it is not a church.
Just because a minister owns a building doesn't mean it is a church.
__________________
A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
The Hitching Post Wedding Chapel is across the street from the Kootenai County Clerk’s office, which issues marriage licenses. The Knapps, both in their 60s and who themselves have been married for 47 years, began operating the wedding chapel in 1989 as a ministry. They perform religious wedding ceremonies, which include references to God, the invocation of God’s blessing on the union, brief remarks drawn from the Bible designed to encourage the couple and help them to have a successful marriage, and more. They also provide each couple they marry with a CD that includes two sermons about marriage, and they recommend numerous Christian books on the subject. The Knapps charge a small fee for their services.
Coeur d’Alene officials told the Knapps privately and also publicly stated that the couple would violate the city’s public accommodations statute once same-sex marriage became legal in Idaho if they declined to perform a same-sex ceremony at their chapel. On Friday, the Knapps respectfully declined such a ceremony and now face up to 180 days in jail and up to $1,000 in fines for each day they decline to perform that ceremony.
“The city somehow expects ordained pastors to flip a switch and turn off all faithfulness to their God and their vows,” explained ADF Legal Counsel Jonathan Scruggs. “The U.S. Constitution as well as federal and state law clearly stand against that. The city cannot mandate across-the-board conformity to its interpretation of a city ordinance in utter disregard for the guaranteed freedoms Americans treasure in our society.”
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
A church is used for public worship, not pay me or this theme package.
I disagree. A church is not a building - it is the people.
People who worship, not people who need a quick place to get married.
I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this subject about theire business being a church.
now...I hope the ACLU sues the city and they win. No one should be forced to marry anyone in a religious ceremony.
I've always thought the government should only recognize civil unions. Then if you want a religious wedding as well then you can do that too. But government paperwork should recognize a government contract.
A church is used for public worship, not pay me or this theme package.
I disagree. A church is not a building - it is the people.
People who worship, not people who need a quick place to get married.
I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this subject about theire business being a church.
now...I hope the ACLU sues the city and they win. No one should be forced to marry anyone in a religious ceremony.
I've always thought the government should only recognize civil unions. Then if you want a religious wedding as well then you can do that too. But government paperwork should recognize a government contract.
I appreciate where you are coming from - but the ministers are people. Their rights matter, too.
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
A church is used for public worship, not pay me or this theme package.
I disagree. A church is not a building - it is the people.
People who worship, not people who need a quick place to get married.
I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this subject about theire business being a church.
now...I hope the ACLU sues the city and they win. No one should be forced to marry anyone in a religious ceremony.
I've always thought the government should only recognize civil unions. Then if you want a religious wedding as well then you can do that too. But government paperwork should recognize a government contract.
I appreciate where you are coming from - but the ministers are people. Their rights matter, too.
But what if your religion says men and women don't sit together and you open a restaurant? If you open a pay service business we have to have some rules. hmmm...I'm going to have to think about this some more.
A church is used for public worship, not pay me or this theme package.
I disagree. A church is not a building - it is the people.
People who worship, not people who need a quick place to get married.
I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this subject about theire business being a church.
now...I hope the ACLU sues the city and they win. No one should be forced to marry anyone in a religious ceremony.
I've always thought the government should only recognize civil unions. Then if you want a religious wedding as well then you can do that too. But government paperwork should recognize a government contract.
I appreciate where you are coming from - but the ministers are people. Their rights matter, too.
But what if your religion says men and women don't sit together and you open a restaurant? If you open a pay service business we have to have some rules. hmmm...I'm going to have to think about this some more.
The difference is what the service is. You can't discriminate against PEOPLE, but you choose not to participate in something that goes against your religion. A marriage ceremony is a religious ceremony to religious people. In the Catholic church - it's a sacrament.
What's next - people demanding baptism even if they don't believe?
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Also - if a non-member of a church wants to get married there, most churches charge to rent the building, and for the people needed to oversee the event.
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Also - if a non-member of a church wants to get married there, most churches charge to rent the building, and for the people needed to oversee the event.
True, but the church itself isn't considered a business.
At what point is the line drawn? I'm not exactly sure.
Should bakers be allowed to say no to a wedding cake?
Or a hotel refuse to rent a ballroom for a gay wedding?
Or is just when someone is the officiant and actually performing the ceremony?
My initial thoughts are a true church that is registered as a church should be able to turn away anyone for any religious reason.
Any officiant should be able to refuse to perform a ceremony.
But a public business may need to accommodate.
Could the wedding venue in this story just let them rent out the room they wanted and gotten someone else to perform the ceremony? Would that satisfy the city? Or is that not good enough?
Also - if a non-member of a church wants to get married there, most churches charge to rent the building, and for the people needed to oversee the event.
True, but the church itself isn't considered a business.
At what point is the line drawn? I'm not exactly sure.
Should bakers be allowed to say no to a wedding cake?
Or a hotel refuse to rent a ballroom for a gay wedding?
Or is just when someone is the officiant and actually performing the ceremony?
My initial thoughts are a true church that is registered as a church should be able to turn away anyone for any religious reason.
Any officiant should be able to refuse to perform a ceremony.
But a public business may need to accommodate.
Could the wedding venue in this story just let them rent out the room they wanted and gotten someone else to perform the ceremony? Would that satisfy the city? Or is that not good enough?
The problem with that is that many churches are not registered. A church is actually the body of people. Some don't even own buildings. Many small churches start in someone's living room.
Besides - I really think that irrelevant. I don't think a MINISTER - who is registered - shouldn't be required to perform a ceremony against their beliefs. Rights belong to people.
And I've said many times - the line should be drawn at participation. If it requires you to participate, such as a photographer, you shouldn't have to do it.
-- Edited by Lawyerlady on Monday 20th of October 2014 11:49:48 AM
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Also - the Supreme Court has already held that privately owned companies share the views of their owners. So, based upon that - no, a business owned by religious people should not be required to accommodate ceremonies that are against their religious beliefs.
__________________
LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
There's a movie on Netflix, I don't remember the name of it, about how eventually people will be jailed for owning Bibles or speaking about god. You won't be allowed to own or display religious symbols. VERY interesting movie. VERY. And it speaks to how when people let their liberties go they can eventually be taken away all together.
__________________
“You may shoot me with your words, you may cut me with your eyes, you may kill me with your hatefulness, but still, like air, I'll rise!” ― Maya Angelou
I know this has already been brought up, but I still just can't wrap my mind around WHY someone, no matter who they are, would want to receive a service from someone who doesn't want to give it?
How many insitutions are there that offer wedding services to anyone and everyone? A LOT. WHY deliberately choose one you KNOW is unwilling and/or unable?
It makes NO sense to me. I would like to talk to people like this so I can get inside their head and truly understand the meaning of it all.
__________________
Was it a bad day?
Or was it a bad five minutes that you milked all day?
I know this has already been brought up, but I still just can't wrap my mind around WHY someone, no matter who they are, would want to receive a service from someone who doesn't want to give it?
How many insitutions are there that offer wedding services to anyone and everyone? A LOT. WHY deliberately choose one you KNOW is unwilling and/or unable?
It makes NO sense to me. I would like to talk to people like this so I can get inside their head and truly understand the meaning of it all.
The only thing I can think of is that their hate for Christianity is greater than their love for each other.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
I thought about posting on this thread but too much anger all around for me...
Don't let the anger both you. We CAN speak freely here. Disagreement is common and sometimes the fur flies, but we all kiss and make up eventually. Well, most of us do.
__________________
I drink coffee so I don't kill you.
I quilt so I don't kill you.
Do you see a theme?
Faith isn't something that keeps bad things from happening. Faith is what helps us get through bad things when they do happen.
Oh and flan, black people are killed because they are like... black.
Whites are targeted in some area's because they are like....white.
Do not say it doesn't happen, because it still does.
__________________
I drink coffee so I don't kill you.
I quilt so I don't kill you.
Do you see a theme?
Faith isn't something that keeps bad things from happening. Faith is what helps us get through bad things when they do happen.
I thought about posting on this thread but too much anger all around for me...
Don't let the anger both you. We CAN speak freely here. Disagreement is common and sometimes the fur flies, but we all kiss and make up eventually. Well, most of us do.
Iv'e seen what happens on these threads. I don't mind disagreeing but there is outright hostility in some posts and I just can't go there yet. Maybe once I know who means it and who doesn't I can jump on in.
__________________
“Until I discovered cooking, I was never really interested in anything.” ― Julia Child ―
I thought about posting on this thread but too much anger all around for me...
Don't let the anger both you. We CAN speak freely here. Disagreement is common and sometimes the fur flies, but we all kiss and make up eventually. Well, most of us do.
Iv'e seen what happens on these threads. I don't mind disagreeing but there is outright hostility in some posts and I just can't go there yet. Maybe once I know who means it and who doesn't I can jump on in.
Some days everyone means it (hostility wise), other days, it's bluff. Hostility I can handle, hatred not so much. TG the hatred is extremely rare.
When you feel comfortable, jump right in.
__________________
I drink coffee so I don't kill you.
I quilt so I don't kill you.
Do you see a theme?
Faith isn't something that keeps bad things from happening. Faith is what helps us get through bad things when they do happen.
I know this has already been brought up, but I still just can't wrap my mind around WHY someone, no matter who they are, would want to receive a service from someone who doesn't want to give it?
How many insitutions are there that offer wedding services to anyone and everyone? A LOT. WHY deliberately choose one you KNOW is unwilling and/or unable?
It makes NO sense to me. I would like to talk to people like this so I can get inside their head and truly understand the meaning of it all.
This. So much this.
It simply would never occur to me to force someone to participate in an event in my life. Beyond that, why in the world would I want to give my money to someone who doesn't want to serve me? It's ridiculous.
I know this has already been brought up, but I still just can't wrap my mind around WHY someone, no matter who they are, would want to receive a service from someone who doesn't want to give it?
How many insitutions are there that offer wedding services to anyone and everyone? A LOT. WHY deliberately choose one you KNOW is unwilling and/or unable?
It makes NO sense to me. I would like to talk to people like this so I can get inside their head and truly understand the meaning of it all.
This. So much this.
It simply would never occur to me to force someone to participate in an event in my life. Beyond that, why in the world would I want to give my money to someone who doesn't want to serve me? It's ridiculous.
Normal people don't. You have to remember that this is hatred targeting Christians and their beliefs, with the intent of forcing the Christians to break their faith.
IMHO, perfect example of intolerance.
__________________
I drink coffee so I don't kill you.
I quilt so I don't kill you.
Do you see a theme?
Faith isn't something that keeps bad things from happening. Faith is what helps us get through bad things when they do happen.
I know this has already been brought up, but I still just can't wrap my mind around WHY someone, no matter who they are, would want to receive a service from someone who doesn't want to give it?
How many insitutions are there that offer wedding services to anyone and everyone? A LOT. WHY deliberately choose one you KNOW is unwilling and/or unable?
It makes NO sense to me. I would like to talk to people like this so I can get inside their head and truly understand the meaning of it all.
This. So much this.
It simply would never occur to me to force someone to participate in an event in my life. Beyond that, why in the world would I want to give my money to someone who doesn't want to serve me? It's ridiculous.
Normal people don't. You have to remember that this is hatred targeting Christians and their beliefs, with the intent of forcing the Christians to break their faith.
IMHO, perfect example of intolerance.
I agree.
And, I get tired of those who are suing Christians for refusing to serve them calling Christians intolerant for practicing their religion.
If the acid test is "do they perform weddings"--pretty much EVERY church performs weddings.
My wedding was performed at a golf course. Does that make it a church?
I recently attended a wedding held in a restaurant and performed by a minister. It's still a restaurant. Didn't turn into a church.
I think a worshipping congregation makes a building a church.
If this is just a wedding venue type place, I don't think that necessarily makes it a church.
The venue does not matter if you are asking someone to perform a religious ritual--then wherever they perform it becomes a church, at least temporarily. A wedding performed by ministers IS a church service.
__________________
I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.
Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.
Also - if a non-member of a church wants to get married there, most churches charge to rent the building, and for the people needed to oversee the event.
True, but the church itself isn't considered a business.
At what point is the line drawn? I'm not exactly sure.
Should bakers be allowed to say no to a wedding cake?
Or a hotel refuse to rent a ballroom for a gay wedding?
Or is just when someone is the officiant and actually performing the ceremony?
My initial thoughts are a true church that is registered as a church should be able to turn away anyone for any religious reason.
Any officiant should be able to refuse to perform a ceremony.
But a public business may need to accommodate.
Could the wedding venue in this story just let them rent out the room they wanted and gotten someone else to perform the ceremony? Would that satisfy the city? Or is that not good enough?
Rights belong to INDIVIDUALS--not buildings.
If you are asking someone to perform a religious ritual--that is against their religion--that is wrong.
Should the government be able to dictate that a Catholic priest give communion to a divorced person?
Should the government be able to dictate that a pastor must baptize any certain individual?
If you are going to make the argument that a wedding is not religious--then you need neither a minister, or a chapel. Have it in the courthouse. If you want a minister and a chapel--then it's religious.
__________________
I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.
Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.