TOTALLY GEEKED!

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

RE: Sikh Student Allowed to Bring "Religious" Knife to Class

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I would support armed security at the school. Trained officers. But no one else should have a gun except highly trained police or security.
I agree.

If it is an actual police officer, not a rent a cop, I would be ok with it. But not just anyone who wants to be hired as a security guard. I think they should be active police officers.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I didn't say teens have them in the school building.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

If you take the certification to carry one, then I have no problem with it.

I have no problem with teachers having them. Create a program that they must finish to gain the privilege.

I have no fear of guns. They don't scare me.

What scares me is someone going in to a school with a gun intending to kill and having no one in there to protect the kids.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Mellow Momma wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I would support armed security at the school. Trained officers. But no one else should have a gun except highly trained police or security.
I agree.
If it is an actual police officer, not a rent a cop, I would be ok with it. But not just anyone who wants to be hired as a security guard. I think they should be active police officers.

I agree. And I don't really want teachers carrying them. DH and I disagree on this one. Personally, I think these would be great positions for ex military when they come home and need a job.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

I don't fear guns either. But only TRAINED professionals should carry them. No teachers. That isn't their job nor do they have that level of training.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

You do realize that they can be trained right?

I would have no problem with the teachers in my kids school having a gun. None.

If these shooters knew they would be teachers inside the school who can and will shoot, I bet there would be less and less and less shootings in the school.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

No that isn't their job. Knowing how and when and under what circumstances to use a gun would require extensive training. It isn't a matter of being able to shoot a gun at a gun range. Many of these situations are not black and white . An innocent child could be hit in collateral damage. The cost to train all these teachers would be prohibitive. Simply not practical. Employ trained security who have to continually train and be ready.

Btw Lilly? Where are teachers going to keep these guns ? And then there is a risk of some kid over powering and taking a teacher's gun. That is a terrible idea and teachers have Zero training in weapons , criminal behavior , securing scenes , etc.
.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I agree Gaga. Are they going to leave the gun in their desk? Unsafe. Carry it on their body? I don't want my kid hugging his kindergarten teacher and have to ask about whether or not she's carrying a gun. I have no problem with police officers carrying guns. They are trained. I also have no problem employing military who come back and are looking for a job. I just don't think teachers should carry.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Exactly.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

There's also a huge difference between target shooting and shooting an armed gunman. There's an even bigger difference between deer hunting and shooting an armed gunman with an automatic weapon amidst a school in chaos with terror and the unknown. It's different shooting an intruder in your house than it is shooting someone in a chaotic environment with noise and movement and screaming and yelling. A teacher is not trained for that. Police and military are.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
There's also a huge difference between target shooting and shooting an armed gunman. There's an even bigger difference between deer hunting and shooting an armed gunman with an automatic weapon amidst a school in chaos with terror and the unknown. It's different shooting an intruder in your house than it is shooting someone in a chaotic environment with noise and movement and screaming and yelling. A teacher is not trained for that. Police and military are.

quite frankly, most teachers wouldn't want to be trained to do that either. The thought of training to possibly have to kill one of the very students they work so hard to teach and mentor...they are incompatible thoughts.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

The idea that you can just teach some teachers to target shoot is foolish and naive beyond words.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
The idea that you can just teach some teachers to target shoot is foolish and naive beyond words.

Agreed. I am thinking of the seemingly ancient teachers we had when I was young. Those women were not capable of shooting a gun and controlling its recoil. Not every teacher is physically fit and ready to be armed.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Mellow Momma wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
There's also a huge difference between target shooting and shooting an armed gunman. There's an even bigger difference between deer hunting and shooting an armed gunman with an automatic weapon amidst a school in chaos with terror and the unknown. It's different shooting an intruder in your house than it is shooting someone in a chaotic environment with noise and movement and screaming and yelling. A teacher is not trained for that. Police and military are.
quite frankly, most teachers wouldn't want to be trained to do that either. The thought of training to possibly have to kill one of the very students they work so hard to teach and mentor...they are incompatible thoughts.

I agree. DH was trained in hand to hand combat in the military. He has no problem doing what needs to be done. He has taught me, and the kids, some things to protect ourselves. But I'm a nurse. Trained to heal and protect. When I practice with him I always hesitate. Maybe under pressure I could do it but I don't know. Maybe it's just because I know him and don't want to hurt him. It would be hard to shoot an ex student that's for sure.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Plus, I don't want any teacher who isn't 100% trained and comfortable and ready to take a life to be armed. I also don't want some rogue hunter, ready to take on the world and spoiling for a fight to be carrying a gun.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Well there would be voluminous new school policies that would have to be written. Evidence if training. Storage of weapons. What type? Who would own them? There would need to be continuity of training , policies on and on and on.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Well there would be voluminous new school policies that would have to be written. Evidence if training. Storage of weapons. What type? Who would own them? There would need to be continuity of training , policies on and on and on.

See? I don't even think of all that stuff. That's a huge undertaking. And expensive at that.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Who would buy the weapons? Would the school provide them or the teachers?

ed11563 · Guru

Start with school employees who already have Concealed Carry Permits. They already own their guns, and very likely practice with them.

Storage? In a holster they are wearing, hidden.

You wouldn't be shooting to "kill", you'd be shooting to "stop" the assailant. That usually means "center of mass".

Would most armed people be able to shoot? If you or I saw a guy (it's always a guy) firing a gun in the cafeteria, and we had a clear shot ...

I don't think either of us would even think about it. BANG. Done.

If there's an active shooter in the hallway, and you (the teacher) have the kids away from the door, you would probably get behind a piece of furniture (desk on its' side?) and just point the gun at the door. If the shooter broke the door open and started to enter, he would get a bullet from you. Aim for center of mass.

You're on the school board, is there an easy, legal way for you to find out how many teachers and administrators already have Concealed Carry Permits? A few armed employees in a school would prevent a repeat of the Sandy Hook massacre.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Mellow Momma wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
The idea that you can just teach some teachers to target shoot is foolish and naive beyond words.
Agreed. I am thinking of the seemingly ancient teachers we had when I was young. Those women were not capable of shooting a gun and controlling its recoil. Not every teacher is physically fit and ready to be armed.

I find these comments to be extremely sexist.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Lawyerlady wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
The idea that you can just teach some teachers to target shoot is foolish and naive beyond words.
Agreed. I am thinking of the seemingly ancient teachers we had when I was young. Those women were not capable of shooting a gun and controlling its recoil. Not every teacher is physically fit and ready to be armed.
I find these comments to be extremely sexist.

I am not saying every teacher is incapable or an old biddy. I am saying that I know quite a few teachers who are older, and NOT physically capable. There are a bunch of young teachers who could probably handle the task. But there are a lot of older teachers who couldn't. What is sexist about that ?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Mellow Momma wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
The idea that you can just teach some teachers to target shoot is foolish and naive beyond words.
Agreed. I am thinking of the seemingly ancient teachers we had when I was young. Those women were not capable of shooting a gun and controlling its recoil. Not every teacher is physically fit and ready to be armed.
I find these comments to be extremely sexist.
I am not saying every teacher is incapable or an old biddy. I am saying that I know quite a few teachers who are older, and NOT physically capable. There are a bunch of young teachers who could probably handle the task. But there are a lot of older teachers who couldn't. What is sexist about that ?

Handle the task of knowing how to properly handle a gun? Being able to train to handle a gun? Gender has NOTHING to do with that. And you'd be surprised - old biddies were not always old biddies and some of them probably know how to handle guns better than you think.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

i don't see many elderly men as teachers. In fact, I know of not one teacher who is a man who is past the age of 30. Most men go into supervision - it pays more and men are more focused on earning more. It's a fact that there is a serious lack of men in the classroom. I didn't make that up, it's a fact. So how is it sexist to know the facts?

Also, I never said none of them would. I said I was thinking specifically of the older women I knew of who would NOT be able to. I am sure there are some who could - and who could do it well. But I know of many many older women who teach, who are older than retirement age and continue to teach because they love their jobs, who could NOT handle a gun. Maybe all the teachers in your experience are young and spry. But in my experience, there are a lot of older teachers who are not. Many retire and come back into teaching to "double dip". This is a real problem where I live. Many young teachers aware driven away because the older teachers have retired, draw a pension, and then get hired back at 1st year teacher wages without needing health insurance. Young teachers can't compete.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Mellow Momma wrote:
i don't see many elderly men as teachers. In fact, I know of not one teacher who is a man who is past the age of 30. Most men go into supervision - it pays more and men are more focused on earning more. It's a fact that there is a serious lack of men in the classroom. I didn't make that up, it's a fact. So how is it sexist to know the facts?

Also, I never said none of them would. I said I was thinking specifically of the older women I knew of who would NOT be able to. I am sure there are some who could - and who could do it well. But I know of many many older women who teach, who are older than retirement age and continue to teach because they love their jobs, who could NOT handle a gun. Maybe all the teachers in your experience are young and spry. But in my experience, there are a lot of older teachers who are not. Many retire and come back into teaching to "double dip". This is a real problem where I live. Many young teachers aware driven away because the older teachers have retired, draw a pension, and then get hired back at 1st year teacher wages without needing health insurance. Young teachers can't compete.

Nobody is saying ALL teachers. But those that are capable and trained properly are no different than a trained security guard.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

ed11563 wrote:
Start with school employees who already have Concealed Carry Permits. They already own their guns, and very likely practice with them.
Storage? In a holster they are wearing, hidden.
You wouldn't be shooting to "kill", you'd be shooting to "stop" the assailant. That usually means "center of mass".
Would most armed people be able to shoot? If you or I saw a guy (it's always a guy) firing a gun in the cafeteria, and we had a clear shot ...
I don't think either of us would even think about it. BANG. Done.

If there's an active shooter in the hallway, and you (the teacher) have the kids away from the door, you would probably get behind a piece of furniture (desk on its' side?) and just point the gun at the door. If the shooter broke the door open and started to enter, he would get a bullet from you. Aim for center of mass.

You're on the school board, is there an easy, legal way for you to find out how many teachers and administrators already have Concealed Carry Permits? A few armed employees in a school would prevent a repeat of the Sandy Hook massacre.

Ed, you really don't seem to understand how expensive this would be and how illogical and nonsensical. First of all, there are many teachers who do NOT even want to carry a gun. That isn't not their TRAINING. I really don't see why you can't understand this. I am totally in favor of having an ARMED officer on the school premises. A TRAINED officer. There are a lot of retired policemen who have interest in doing just this type of thing. So, the ONLY person who should be in possession of a gun is someone with extensive training to use it.

ANd, to shot to "stop" at center mass. Um, if you shoot center mass, you are shooting someone in the chest, into their heart. Could a teacher kill one of her own students if he/she had too? I don't know. And, I don't think the teacher knows. What if the teacher WRONGLY fires? What if the teacher makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and/or fires and hits the wrong child? What if the teacher misses and a stray bullet richochets and hits another kid? You seem to have some black/white very simplistic notion of how these things play out. And, the teachers are not trained or equipped to do this. And, it then would take away from the primary JOB of the teachers which is to find a way to duck and cover and with the children and barricade their rooms and/or evacuate them depending on what is going on. The teachers has a HELL Of a lot to do already in that instance including taking a head count and knowing where all of her/his students are. That is not the JOB of the teacher. I don't know many times I can say that. And, you don't simply say, Oh you have a gun permit, here ya go, bring your gun to class. That is just pure nonsense.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
i don't see many elderly men as teachers. In fact, I know of not one teacher who is a man who is past the age of 30. Most men go into supervision - it pays more and men are more focused on earning more. It's a fact that there is a serious lack of men in the classroom. I didn't make that up, it's a fact. So how is it sexist to know the facts?

Also, I never said none of them would. I said I was thinking specifically of the older women I knew of who would NOT be able to. I am sure there are some who could - and who could do it well. But I know of many many older women who teach, who are older than retirement age and continue to teach because they love their jobs, who could NOT handle a gun. Maybe all the teachers in your experience are young and spry. But in my experience, there are a lot of older teachers who are not. Many retire and come back into teaching to "double dip". This is a real problem where I live. Many young teachers aware driven away because the older teachers have retired, draw a pension, and then get hired back at 1st year teacher wages without needing health insurance. Young teachers can't compete.
Nobody is saying ALL teachers. But those that are capable and trained properly are no different than a trained security guard.

OK. So, how many teachers? Which teachers? 1, 5. 10, all of them? And, yes they are different than a trained security guard. It isn't their focus nor their job. And, if my school decided to have teachers carry, I would be the first one at the school protesting. That would scare the bejeepers out of me and a lot of parents.

I do want guns in school. I want trained personnel who's sole job is Safety and Security.

huskerbb · Guru

Mellow Momma wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I would support armed security at the school. Trained officers. But no one else should have a gun except highly trained police or security.
I agree.
If it is an actual police officer, not a rent a cop, I would be ok with it. But not just anyone who wants to be hired as a security guard. I think they should be active police officers.

Then it will never happen. Police forces don't have the manpower to permanently place an officer at every school every day.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Start with school employees who already have Concealed Carry Permits. They already own their guns, and very likely practice with them.
Storage? In a holster they are wearing, hidden.
You wouldn't be shooting to "kill", you'd be shooting to "stop" the assailant. That usually means "center of mass".
Would most armed people be able to shoot? If you or I saw a guy (it's always a guy) firing a gun in the cafeteria, and we had a clear shot ...
I don't think either of us would even think about it. BANG. Done.

If there's an active shooter in the hallway, and you (the teacher) have the kids away from the door, you would probably get behind a piece of furniture (desk on its' side?) and just point the gun at the door. If the shooter broke the door open and started to enter, he would get a bullet from you. Aim for center of mass.

You're on the school board, is there an easy, legal way for you to find out how many teachers and administrators already have Concealed Carry Permits? A few armed employees in a school would prevent a repeat of the Sandy Hook massacre.

Ed, you really don't seem to understand how expensive this would be and how illogical and nonsensical. First of all, there are many teachers who do NOT even want to carry a gun. That isn't not their TRAINING. I really don't see why you can't understand this. I am totally in favor of having an ARMED officer on the school premises. A TRAINED officer. There are a lot of retired policemen who have interest in doing just this type of thing. So, the ONLY person who should be in possession of a gun is someone with extensive training to use it.
ANd, to shot to "stop" at center mass. Um, if you shoot center mass, you are shooting someone in the chest, into their heart. Could a teacher kill one of her own students if he/she had too? I don't know. And, I don't think the teacher knows. What if the teacher WRONGLY fires? What if the teacher makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and/or fires and hits the wrong child? What if the teacher misses and a stray bullet richochets and hits another kid? You seem to have some black/white very simplistic notion of how these things play out. And, the teachers are not trained or equipped to do this. And, it then would take away from the primary JOB of the teachers which is to find a way to duck and cover and with the children and barricade their rooms and/or evacuate them depending on what is going on. The teachers has a HELL Of a lot to do already in that instance including taking a head count and knowing where all of her/his students are. That is not the JOB of the teacher. I don't know many times I can say that. And, you don't simply say, Oh you have a gun permit, here ya go, bring your gun to class. That is just pure nonsense.

It' not about training teachers to be security guards. It's about letting them have the possibility of stopping an active shooter on a moment's notice.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I would support armed security at the school. Trained officers. But no one else should have a gun except highly trained police or security.
I agree.
If it is an actual police officer, not a rent a cop, I would be ok with it. But not just anyone who wants to be hired as a security guard. I think they should be active police officers.
Then it will never happen. Police forces don't have the manpower to permanently place an officer at every school every day.

Then, we can hire dedicated TRAINED Security personnel.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Start with school employees who already have Concealed Carry Permits. They already own their guns, and very likely practice with them.
Storage? In a holster they are wearing, hidden.
You wouldn't be shooting to "kill", you'd be shooting to "stop" the assailant. That usually means "center of mass".
Would most armed people be able to shoot? If you or I saw a guy (it's always a guy) firing a gun in the cafeteria, and we had a clear shot ...
I don't think either of us would even think about it. BANG. Done.

If there's an active shooter in the hallway, and you (the teacher) have the kids away from the door, you would probably get behind a piece of furniture (desk on its' side?) and just point the gun at the door. If the shooter broke the door open and started to enter, he would get a bullet from you. Aim for center of mass.

You're on the school board, is there an easy, legal way for you to find out how many teachers and administrators already have Concealed Carry Permits? A few armed employees in a school would prevent a repeat of the Sandy Hook massacre.

Ed, you really don't seem to understand how expensive this would be and how illogical and nonsensical. First of all, there are many teachers who do NOT even want to carry a gun. That isn't not their TRAINING. I really don't see why you can't understand this. I am totally in favor of having an ARMED officer on the school premises. A TRAINED officer. There are a lot of retired policemen who have interest in doing just this type of thing. So, the ONLY person who should be in possession of a gun is someone with extensive training to use it.
ANd, to shot to "stop" at center mass. Um, if you shoot center mass, you are shooting someone in the chest, into their heart. Could a teacher kill one of her own students if he/she had too? I don't know. And, I don't think the teacher knows. What if the teacher WRONGLY fires? What if the teacher makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and/or fires and hits the wrong child? What if the teacher misses and a stray bullet richochets and hits another kid? You seem to have some black/white very simplistic notion of how these things play out. And, the teachers are not trained or equipped to do this. And, it then would take away from the primary JOB of the teachers which is to find a way to duck and cover and with the children and barricade their rooms and/or evacuate them depending on what is going on. The teachers has a HELL Of a lot to do already in that instance including taking a head count and knowing where all of her/his students are. That is not the JOB of the teacher. I don't know many times I can say that. And, you don't simply say, Oh you have a gun permit, here ya go, bring your gun to class. That is just pure nonsense.
It' not about training teachers to be security guards. It's about letting them have the possibility of stopping an active shooter on a moment's notice.

The JOB of the teacher is to focus on the students. The job of the teacher is to secure the classroom, barricade the door or evacuate while simultaneously taking a head count and knowing where the students are. It is the job of the Board and Administrators to make sound policy and to make sure that the policies that we put in place are going to result in the best scenarios and safest school. As I said, I am totally in favor of having an armed presence at the school. Absolutely. But, to monitor and train and maintain training of every teacher possessing a gun is just nonsensical.

Vette · Owl drink to that!

I don't agree with teachers carrying guns, maybe tasers I could get on board with

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

We have had violence at some of our local hospitals. The police are called to the ER at times for such things. Should nurses be carrying guns too? Gun violence can affect anyone anywhere. Yes, we need armed personnel. ANd, maybe you want everyone and their brother to be carrying a gun 24/7. However, I don't think most of society would feel comfortable or accept that approach .

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

VetteGirl wrote:
I don't agree with teachers carrying guns, maybe tasers I could get on board with

Until a taser is stolen from the classroom. Or, until it is mistakenly used in an improper way.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
No that isn't their job. Knowing how and when and under what circumstances to use a gun would require extensive training. It isn't a matter of being able to shoot a gun at a gun range. Many of these situations are not black and white . An innocent child could be hit in collateral damage. The cost to train all these teachers would be prohibitive. Simply not practical. Employ trained security who have to continually train and be ready.

Btw Lilly? Where are teachers going to keep these guns ? And then there is a risk of some kid over powering and taking a teacher's gun. That is a terrible idea and teachers have Zero training in weapons , criminal behavior , securing scenes , etc.
.

On their persons.

Little kids are being killed with no one doing anything but cowering in the closet. But lets not do anything.

There are so many ways of protecting these kids.

You want to tell me why they cant have protection.

When will you begin thinking of reasons why they should?

Vette · Owl drink to that!

That's why I said maybe

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

lilyofcourse wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
No that isn't their job. Knowing how and when and under what circumstances to use a gun would require extensive training. It isn't a matter of being able to shoot a gun at a gun range. Many of these situations are not black and white . An innocent child could be hit in collateral damage. The cost to train all these teachers would be prohibitive. Simply not practical. Employ trained security who have to continually train and be ready.

Btw Lilly? Where are teachers going to keep these guns ? And then there is a risk of some kid over powering and taking a teacher's gun. That is a terrible idea and teachers have Zero training in weapons , criminal behavior , securing scenes , etc.
.
On their persons.
Little kids are being killed with no one doing anything but cowering in the closet. But lets not do anything.
There are so many ways of protecting these kids.
You want to tell me why they cant have protection.
When will you begin thinking of reasons why they should?

Are you incapable of understanding that because we dont' choose your way that we are saying "Let's not do anything"?

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

VetteGirl wrote:
That's why I said maybe

Yes, I have thought that perhaps Principals could carry tasers. But, not sure how I feel about that.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I would support armed security at the school. Trained officers. But no one else should have a gun except highly trained police or security.
I agree.
If it is an actual police officer, not a rent a cop, I would be ok with it. But not just anyone who wants to be hired as a security guard. I think they should be active police officers.
Then it will never happen. Police forces don't have the manpower to permanently place an officer at every school every day.
Then, we can hire dedicated TRAINED Security personnel.

That would cost BILLIONS of dollars that school districts across the U.S. do not have in order to prevent a tragedy that has an INFINITESSIMALLLY small chance of occurring at any one school. That's just not a good plan except in a very few school districts.

ed11563 · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Start with school employees who already have Concealed Carry Permits. They already own their guns, and very likely practice with them.
Storage? In a holster they are wearing, hidden.
You wouldn't be shooting to "kill", you'd be shooting to "stop" the assailant. That usually means "center of mass".
Would most armed people be able to shoot? If you or I saw a guy (it's always a guy) firing a gun in the cafeteria, and we had a clear shot ...
I don't think either of us would even think about it. BANG. Done.

If there's an active shooter in the hallway, and you (the teacher) have the kids away from the door, you would probably get behind a piece of furniture (desk on its' side?) and just point the gun at the door. If the shooter broke the door open and started to enter, he would get a bullet from you. Aim for center of mass.

You're on the school board, is there an easy, legal way for you to find out how many teachers and administrators already have Concealed Carry Permits? A few armed employees in a school would prevent a repeat of the Sandy Hook massacre.

Ed, you really don't seem to understand how expensive this would be and how illogical and nonsensical. First of all, there are many teachers who do NOT even want to carry a gun. That isn't not their TRAINING. I really don't see why you can't understand this. I am totally in favor of having an ARMED officer on the school premises. A TRAINED officer. There are a lot of retired policemen who have interest in doing just this type of thing. So, the ONLY person who should be in possession of a gun is someone with extensive training to use it.
ANd, to shot to "stop" at center mass. Um, if you shoot center mass, you are shooting someone in the chest, into their heart. Could a teacher kill one of her own students if he/she had too? I don't know. And, I don't think the teacher knows. What if the teacher WRONGLY fires? What if the teacher makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and/or fires and hits the wrong child? What if the teacher misses and a stray bullet richochets and hits another kid? You seem to have some black/white very simplistic notion of how these things play out. And, the teachers are not trained or equipped to do this. And, it then would take away from the primary JOB of the teachers which is to find a way to duck and cover and with the children and barricade their rooms and/or evacuate them depending on what is going on. The teachers has a HELL Of a lot to do already in that instance including taking a head count and knowing where all of her/his students are. That is not the JOB of the teacher. I don't know many times I can say that. And, you don't simply say, Oh you have a gun permit, here ya go, bring your gun to class. That is just pure nonsense.
It' not about training teachers to be security guards. It's about letting them have the possibility of stopping an active shooter on a moment's notice.
The JOB of the teacher is to focus on the students. The job of the teacher is to secure the classroom, barricade the door or evacuate while simultaneously taking a head count and knowing where the students are. It is the job of the Board and Administrators to make sound policy and to make sure that the policies that we put in place are going to result in the best scenarios and safest school. As I said, I am totally in favor of having an armed presence at the school. Absolutely. But, to monitor and train and maintain training of every teacher possessing a gun is just nonsensical.

No one has suggested that ALL teachers be armed. Just a few, the ones who ALREADY have concealed carry permits, who already own their own guns, and who already practice with them at a firing range.

The real goal is to PREVENT active shooters from going after a high-value, soft target like a school. If the nut job thinks he will likely run into a half dozen armed personnel in an elementary school, he might re-think his plan, or go for a softer target.

But if/when one of them next goes into an elementary school, the body count would be much lower if some of the staff are armed.

Cost to the school should be ZERO.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Start with school employees who already have Concealed Carry Permits. They already own their guns, and very likely practice with them.
Storage? In a holster they are wearing, hidden.
You wouldn't be shooting to "kill", you'd be shooting to "stop" the assailant. That usually means "center of mass".
Would most armed people be able to shoot? If you or I saw a guy (it's always a guy) firing a gun in the cafeteria, and we had a clear shot ...
I don't think either of us would even think about it. BANG. Done.

If there's an active shooter in the hallway, and you (the teacher) have the kids away from the door, you would probably get behind a piece of furniture (desk on its' side?) and just point the gun at the door. If the shooter broke the door open and started to enter, he would get a bullet from you. Aim for center of mass.

You're on the school board, is there an easy, legal way for you to find out how many teachers and administrators already have Concealed Carry Permits? A few armed employees in a school would prevent a repeat of the Sandy Hook massacre.

Ed, you really don't seem to understand how expensive this would be and how illogical and nonsensical. First of all, there are many teachers who do NOT even want to carry a gun. That isn't not their TRAINING. I really don't see why you can't understand this. I am totally in favor of having an ARMED officer on the school premises. A TRAINED officer. There are a lot of retired policemen who have interest in doing just this type of thing. So, the ONLY person who should be in possession of a gun is someone with extensive training to use it.
ANd, to shot to "stop" at center mass. Um, if you shoot center mass, you are shooting someone in the chest, into their heart. Could a teacher kill one of her own students if he/she had too? I don't know. And, I don't think the teacher knows. What if the teacher WRONGLY fires? What if the teacher makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and/or fires and hits the wrong child? What if the teacher misses and a stray bullet richochets and hits another kid? You seem to have some black/white very simplistic notion of how these things play out. And, the teachers are not trained or equipped to do this. And, it then would take away from the primary JOB of the teachers which is to find a way to duck and cover and with the children and barricade their rooms and/or evacuate them depending on what is going on. The teachers has a HELL Of a lot to do already in that instance including taking a head count and knowing where all of her/his students are. That is not the JOB of the teacher. I don't know many times I can say that. And, you don't simply say, Oh you have a gun permit, here ya go, bring your gun to class. That is just pure nonsense.
It' not about training teachers to be security guards. It's about letting them have the possibility of stopping an active shooter on a moment's notice.
The JOB of the teacher is to focus on the students. The job of the teacher is to secure the classroom, barricade the door or evacuate while simultaneously taking a head count and knowing where the students are. It is the job of the Board and Administrators to make sound policy and to make sure that the policies that we put in place are going to result in the best scenarios and safest school. As I said, I am totally in favor of having an armed presence at the school. Absolutely. But, to monitor and train and maintain training of every teacher possessing a gun is just nonsensical.

What "training" nonsense are you even talking about??? EVERYONE who gets a concealed carry permit is required to go through training, already.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

It would cost BILLIONS to train multiple teachers, to keep track of and maintain the firearms, to provide continual and ongoing training with documentation. And, there are also going to be liability issues that we haven't even touched on concerning teachers carrying firearms. You seem to think it is as easy as handing Mrs. Smith a gun and say, Shoot someone if you need too. Absurd. There are layers upon layers that need to happen before that can even be a possibility.

huskerbb · Guru

ed11563 wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Start with school employees who already have Concealed Carry Permits. They already own their guns, and very likely practice with them.
Storage? In a holster they are wearing, hidden.
You wouldn't be shooting to "kill", you'd be shooting to "stop" the assailant. That usually means "center of mass".
Would most armed people be able to shoot? If you or I saw a guy (it's always a guy) firing a gun in the cafeteria, and we had a clear shot ...
I don't think either of us would even think about it. BANG. Done.

If there's an active shooter in the hallway, and you (the teacher) have the kids away from the door, you would probably get behind a piece of furniture (desk on its' side?) and just point the gun at the door. If the shooter broke the door open and started to enter, he would get a bullet from you. Aim for center of mass.

You're on the school board, is there an easy, legal way for you to find out how many teachers and administrators already have Concealed Carry Permits? A few armed employees in a school would prevent a repeat of the Sandy Hook massacre.

Ed, you really don't seem to understand how expensive this would be and how illogical and nonsensical. First of all, there are many teachers who do NOT even want to carry a gun. That isn't not their TRAINING. I really don't see why you can't understand this. I am totally in favor of having an ARMED officer on the school premises. A TRAINED officer. There are a lot of retired policemen who have interest in doing just this type of thing. So, the ONLY person who should be in possession of a gun is someone with extensive training to use it.
ANd, to shot to "stop" at center mass. Um, if you shoot center mass, you are shooting someone in the chest, into their heart. Could a teacher kill one of her own students if he/she had too? I don't know. And, I don't think the teacher knows. What if the teacher WRONGLY fires? What if the teacher makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and/or fires and hits the wrong child? What if the teacher misses and a stray bullet richochets and hits another kid? You seem to have some black/white very simplistic notion of how these things play out. And, the teachers are not trained or equipped to do this. And, it then would take away from the primary JOB of the teachers which is to find a way to duck and cover and with the children and barricade their rooms and/or evacuate them depending on what is going on. The teachers has a HELL Of a lot to do already in that instance including taking a head count and knowing where all of her/his students are. That is not the JOB of the teacher. I don't know many times I can say that. And, you don't simply say, Oh you have a gun permit, here ya go, bring your gun to class. That is just pure nonsense.
It' not about training teachers to be security guards. It's about letting them have the possibility of stopping an active shooter on a moment's notice.
The JOB of the teacher is to focus on the students. The job of the teacher is to secure the classroom, barricade the door or evacuate while simultaneously taking a head count and knowing where the students are. It is the job of the Board and Administrators to make sound policy and to make sure that the policies that we put in place are going to result in the best scenarios and safest school. As I said, I am totally in favor of having an armed presence at the school. Absolutely. But, to monitor and train and maintain training of every teacher possessing a gun is just nonsensical.
No one has suggested that ALL teachers be armed. Just a few, the ones who ALREADY have concealed carry permits, who already own their own guns, and who already practice with them at a firing range.
The real goal is to PREVENT active shooters from going after a high-value, soft target like a school. If the nut job thinks he will likely run into a half dozen armed personnel in an elementary school, he might re-think his plan, or go for a softer target.
But if/when one of them next goes into an elementary school, the body count would be much lower if some of the staff are armed.
Cost to the school should be ZERO.

Exactly. It would certainly be FAR less costly than the BILLIONS it would take to put armed guards in every school--the VAST majority of which don't need it on a daily basis.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Start with school employees who already have Concealed Carry Permits. They already own their guns, and very likely practice with them.
Storage? In a holster they are wearing, hidden.
You wouldn't be shooting to "kill", you'd be shooting to "stop" the assailant. That usually means "center of mass".
Would most armed people be able to shoot? If you or I saw a guy (it's always a guy) firing a gun in the cafeteria, and we had a clear shot ...
I don't think either of us would even think about it. BANG. Done.

If there's an active shooter in the hallway, and you (the teacher) have the kids away from the door, you would probably get behind a piece of furniture (desk on its' side?) and just point the gun at the door. If the shooter broke the door open and started to enter, he would get a bullet from you. Aim for center of mass.

You're on the school board, is there an easy, legal way for you to find out how many teachers and administrators already have Concealed Carry Permits? A few armed employees in a school would prevent a repeat of the Sandy Hook massacre.

Ed, you really don't seem to understand how expensive this would be and how illogical and nonsensical. First of all, there are many teachers who do NOT even want to carry a gun. That isn't not their TRAINING. I really don't see why you can't understand this. I am totally in favor of having an ARMED officer on the school premises. A TRAINED officer. There are a lot of retired policemen who have interest in doing just this type of thing. So, the ONLY person who should be in possession of a gun is someone with extensive training to use it.
ANd, to shot to "stop" at center mass. Um, if you shoot center mass, you are shooting someone in the chest, into their heart. Could a teacher kill one of her own students if he/she had too? I don't know. And, I don't think the teacher knows. What if the teacher WRONGLY fires? What if the teacher makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and/or fires and hits the wrong child? What if the teacher misses and a stray bullet richochets and hits another kid? You seem to have some black/white very simplistic notion of how these things play out. And, the teachers are not trained or equipped to do this. And, it then would take away from the primary JOB of the teachers which is to find a way to duck and cover and with the children and barricade their rooms and/or evacuate them depending on what is going on. The teachers has a HELL Of a lot to do already in that instance including taking a head count and knowing where all of her/his students are. That is not the JOB of the teacher. I don't know many times I can say that. And, you don't simply say, Oh you have a gun permit, here ya go, bring your gun to class. That is just pure nonsense.
It' not about training teachers to be security guards. It's about letting them have the possibility of stopping an active shooter on a moment's notice.
The JOB of the teacher is to focus on the students. The job of the teacher is to secure the classroom, barricade the door or evacuate while simultaneously taking a head count and knowing where the students are. It is the job of the Board and Administrators to make sound policy and to make sure that the policies that we put in place are going to result in the best scenarios and safest school. As I said, I am totally in favor of having an armed presence at the school. Absolutely. But, to monitor and train and maintain training of every teacher possessing a gun is just nonsensical.
What "training" nonsense are you even talking about??? EVERYONE who gets a concealed carry permit is required to go through training, already.

What BULLSCHIT!! I have a concealed carry weapons permit. I don't even OWN a handgun yet. The only "training" I was required of by the State was to sign my signature and hand them a check. There is NO TRAINING component to a carry permit in Pennsylvania.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
It would cost BILLIONS to train multiple teachers, to keep track of and maintain the firearms, to provide continual and ongoing training with documentation. And, there are also going to be liability issues that we haven't even touched on concerning teachers carrying firearms. You seem to think it is as easy as handing Mrs. Smith a gun and say, Shoot someone if you need too. Absurd. There are layers upon layers that need to happen before that can even be a possibility.

WTF are you babbling about?

They already take training to get their conceal carry permit. they already own the guns.

The cost would be MINIMAL to ZERO.

Oh, and no, there IS NOT "layers and layers"--some schools already do this and they've done NONE of the crap you are suggesting.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
No that isn't their job. Knowing how and when and under what circumstances to use a gun would require extensive training. It isn't a matter of being able to shoot a gun at a gun range. Many of these situations are not black and white . An innocent child could be hit in collateral damage. The cost to train all these teachers would be prohibitive. Simply not practical. Employ trained security who have to continually train and be ready.

Btw Lilly? Where are teachers going to keep these guns ? And then there is a risk of some kid over powering and taking a teacher's gun. That is a terrible idea and teachers have Zero training in weapons , criminal behavior , securing scenes , etc.
.
On their persons.
Little kids are being killed with no one doing anything but cowering in the closet. But lets not do anything.
There are so many ways of protecting these kids.
You want to tell me why they cant have protection.
When will you begin thinking of reasons why they should?
Are you incapable of understanding that because we dont' choose your way that we are saying "Let's not do anything"?

What you are saying is it would cost a lot of money. Blah blah blah.

But you fail to see that hiring a security team for each school would cost more.

why? Ongoing training, salaries, pensions, insurance.

All of that is already taken care of with teachers.

Except the ongoing training. But that can be satisfied with a yearly course.

What other ideas do you have?

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Yes, School Security will cost money, period. But, it would be far less costly to hire 2 trained security guard with salaries and bennies than to try to train 150 teachers to carry, handle and properly use firearms. And, there needs to be a chain of command. Having trained security provides that.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Start with school employees who already have Concealed Carry Permits. They already own their guns, and very likely practice with them.
Storage? In a holster they are wearing, hidden.
You wouldn't be shooting to "kill", you'd be shooting to "stop" the assailant. That usually means "center of mass".
Would most armed people be able to shoot? If you or I saw a guy (it's always a guy) firing a gun in the cafeteria, and we had a clear shot ...
I don't think either of us would even think about it. BANG. Done.

If there's an active shooter in the hallway, and you (the teacher) have the kids away from the door, you would probably get behind a piece of furniture (desk on its' side?) and just point the gun at the door. If the shooter broke the door open and started to enter, he would get a bullet from you. Aim for center of mass.

You're on the school board, is there an easy, legal way for you to find out how many teachers and administrators already have Concealed Carry Permits? A few armed employees in a school would prevent a repeat of the Sandy Hook massacre.

   Ed, you really don't seem to understand how expensive this would be and how illogical and nonsensical. First of all, there are many teachers who do NOT even want to carry a gun. That isn't not their TRAINING.   I really don't see why you can't understand this. I am totally in favor of having an ARMED officer on the school premises. A TRAINED officer. There are a lot of retired policemen who have interest in doing just this type of thing. So, the ONLY person who should be in possession of a gun is someone with extensive training to use it.
ANd, to shot to "stop" at center mass. Um, if you shoot center mass, you are shooting someone in the chest, into their heart. Could a teacher kill one of her own students if he/she had too? I don't know. And, I don't think the teacher knows. What if the teacher WRONGLY fires? What if the teacher makes a mistake in the heat of the moment and/or fires and hits the wrong child? What if the teacher misses and a stray bullet richochets and hits another kid? You seem to have some black/white very simplistic notion of how these things play out. And, the teachers are not trained or equipped to do this. And, it then would take away from the primary JOB of the teachers which is to find a way to duck and cover and with the children and barricade their rooms and/or evacuate them depending on what is going on. The teachers has a HELL Of a lot to do already in that instance including taking a head count and knowing where all of her/his students are. That is not the JOB of the teacher. I don't know many times I can say that. And, you don't simply say, Oh you have a gun permit, here ya go, bring your gun to class. That is just pure nonsense.
It' not about training teachers to be security guards. It's about letting them have the possibility of stopping an active shooter on a moment's notice.
The JOB of the teacher is to focus on the students. The job of the teacher is to secure the classroom, barricade the door or evacuate while simultaneously taking a head count and knowing where the students are.   It is the job of the Board and Administrators to make sound policy and to make sure that the policies that we put in place are going to result in the best scenarios and safest school.  As I said, I am totally in favor of having an armed presence at the school. Absolutely. But, to monitor and train and maintain training of every teacher possessing a gun is just nonsensical.
What "training" nonsense are you even talking about??? EVERYONE who gets a concealed carry permit is required to go through training, already.
What BULLSCHIT!! I have a concealed carry weapons permit. I don't even OWN a handgun yet.  The only "training"  I was required of by the State was to sign my signature and hand them a check. There is NO TRAINING component to a carry permit in Pennsylvania.

That's ONE state. You do realize there are fifty of those, right?

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Oh, a yearly course is somehow going to make Mrs. Smith gun ready during a major crisis? She will just drop her chalk and go? Uh huh. If you are sooooo smart Lilly, then go run for the School Board and try to do exactly what you propose.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Yes, School Security will cost money, period. But, it would be far less costly to hire 2 trained security guard with salaries and bennies than to try to train 150 teachers to carry, handle and properly use firearms. And, there needs to be a chain of command. Having trained security provides that.

You are wrong.

You don't need to train "150" teachers. I don't even know where you come up with that ridiculous number.

You don't need to train ANY. Find a couple of teachers that already own firearms and are trained.