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Post Info TOPIC: Is There Room in the Church for Non-Believers?


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Is There Room in the Church for Non-Believers?
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Is There Room in the Church for Non-Believers?

Posted: 10/27/2014 1:49 pm EDT Updated: 10/27/2014 1:59 pm EDT

 

 

 

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[Photo © , used by permission.]

Not long ago I was mindlessly glancing through a variety of posts on my Facebook newsfeed as I typically do once or twice a day to see what my friends and family members were up to.

My glancing stopped when I saw a post from an acquaintance of mine, a popular comic book writer/artist and designer for whom I'd proofread a few freelance book projects some years ago. What jumped out at me was the word "church" in his post.

I had no idea he was religiously inclined. It seems I have always been a believer, and in the time since we had worked together I've been on a journey toward ordination as an Episcopal priest. Now in addition to my work as producer and host of the Day 1 radio program, I serve as an assisting priest in a wonderful parish southwest of Atlanta.

So here's what he wrote on his Facebook page (shared with his permission):

"They didn't pick me up for church yesterday. Why am I bothered? I'm a Non-theist, as opposed to an Atheist. It is nuance to be sure. But these days the Angry Dis-believing is different from the Friendly Non-believing. That said, I go to church on Sundays to be part of my mother and father's community. I was married there (number one), designed their logo, buried Mom in the garden. I have been a happy non-believer for years. I don't go to church to worship the supernatural or pay homage to a 2000-year-old martyr, but to embrace friends. Knowing my father was out of town, why did they not come get me?"

 
 

I hit "like" in hopes he would sense my friendly support in his frustration.

His post not only surprised me, it also broke my heart -- particularly since he was referring to an Episcopal church. As it turns out, he and his father share a car so they typically go to church together, but this particular Sunday his father was out of town with the car. No one had thought to pick my friend up. And he, a "Friendly Non-believer," missed being in church.

But beyond the melancholy nature of his post in missing the opportunity to "embrace friends" in church was the astonishing notion that non-believers can actually enjoy and appreciate being part of a congregation. That they can take pleasure in participating in a family of faith, even without the faith.

And that makes me wonder, is the church doing enough to make non-believing people feel welcome? And why not?

I believe there is something about experiencing the ancient liturgy that can take us to another part of our being, deep into our spiritual selves -- whether one can recite the Nicene Creed in good conscience or not. Participating in the taking, breaking, blessing, and giving of the bread and wine of the Eucharist can move us into an invigorating place in the spiritual stream of human history from the early church on.

Worship services provide a place not only to experience sublime peace, but to be challenged to serve. Getting involved in an active community of faith, even without faith, can help us build mutually beneficial relationships, and can also offer opportunities to meet the needs around us --to get out of ourselves and our own concerns, see the hurting world around us, and do something constructive and meaningful about it together.

A number of people added comments to my friend's post. One said:

"The best part of church is the fellowship you describe."

 
 

To be sure, in our culture today, there is so little opportunity to experience camaraderie and affiliation with other people -- men and women who may be very different from ourselves in a number of ways. To my thinking, we need all the human connections we can get in this world. Church offers this rare opportunity for meaningful fellowship, if we give ourselves to it.

This commenter continued:

"In a small town, churches are hubs for the community. In a big city, your church can be an oasis. I loved going back to [my old] Church when I was home in May, even went to a choir practice with my old choir. Felt good to see everyone again."

 
 

Interesting: Church as an oasis of peace. Church as a lifeboat in the storm. Church as a gathering place for joyful interaction -- regardless of who is part of the congregation.

Another person chimed in:

"I [go to church] to meet my neighbors. It's a great social activity. I'm not thoroughly convinced people believe 100 percent."

 
 

What better place to meet people? They probably don't believe 100 percent if they're Episcopalians! But I didn't say that.

Yet another commenter said that he and his wife had visited friends the previous weekend and they all attended an Episcopal service:

"As a lapsed Anglican, I was struck by the strength of the community bonds in evidence, and the support offered to those in need, either physically, mentally, or spiritually. Powerful stuff indeed."

 
 

Of course, one wag had to post a response to that:

"Lapsed Anglican? Isn't that like falling out of a first floor window?"

 
 

Heh. This commenter went on to say,

"I love church and synagogue. Not sure about this God guy... I think they call me religious but not spiritual."

 
 

And here we've been so concerned about the "spiritual but not religious" people! Maybe we shouldn't be labeling people so much. This commenter added a final note:

"I don't want something hippy or dippy either! I want a bunch of doubters in deep, traditional, reverent pretense."

 
 

I chuckled at the cynicism, inwardly denied my own occasional pretense, and acknowledged that there is indeed a broad spectrum of authenticity regarding one's faith. And we need to recognize that -- and perhaps even welcome it.

This is a phenomenon I'm not sure many church leaders and members are even aware is happening, or can happen. Perhaps we should find a way to open our doors wider to welcome more of these folks who may be "religious but not spiritual" -- the "Friendly Non-theists" -- without seeking to convince or coerce or convert them into belief. That is a matter between them and God, after all, whether the God they don't believe in exists or not.

The Episcopal Church is among those denominations considered to be more open to doubt, questioning, and unsettledness regarding aspects of faith than some other traditions. That sort of faith seems stronger and more authentic to me than an unquestioning, doubt-free faith. It requires work and thought and struggle and prayer. Work that I and many others find pays off in deep meaning and purpose in life.

So there is room in the church for doubters. Is there room in the church for non-believers?

 



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The church is full of them. Every church has them. 

 



-- Edited by lilyofcourse on Wednesday 29th of October 2014 07:59:17 AM

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Owl drink to that!

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So just because his friend forgot to pick him up he interprets that to mean he's not allowed in church? Seems like a big leap to me.

Not only that, but he is going to judge ALL churches and church goers because of this ONE "friend?"

I think he is off his rocker, religious or not. It sounds like he is the type to take everything WAY too seriously and create offense where there is none intended.

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Yeah, I don't know how you go from not getting picked up to the Church now "hates" you or whatever.

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Is it possible that some just forgot? Wow.

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Actually, this kind of thing happens soooo much in life. People will interpret some innocent act and put the most offensive or heinous spin on it as possible. Someone could honestly forget but then they are the Worst Person in the World.
When I was a twentysomething driver, I was pulling into a spot at Walmart. And, I dinged a car beside me. I wasn't really sure what to do, there was a small amount of damage. I didn't crash off the bumper or anything like. So, I thought, I should probably just wait for the owner to come out. Shortly thereafter, a woman came out and I got out of my car to apologize to her and give her my insurance info and tell her I would take care of it. This woman literally went ApeSchit and started screaming "how could I do this to her. She is in the midst of chemo for breast cancer. Her dad just died. Yada yada". Like yeah, I TARGETED your car to ruin your day. Holy Cow Lady. At that point I burst into tears, and then she calmed herself down. She actually did apologize for over reacting. And, turned out there was really no damage and just some paint that she was able to have buffed out.
Anyway, that was a huge lesson for me. You never know how someone will react to anything. People will put their own spin on something and will impute all sorts of motives to you that may be completely unfounded and untrue.

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My SIL is very much like this. And, she is a toxic person. Nobody can really stand to be around her anymore. Everything is about HER. And, if everything isn't always exactly as she wants it, then someone is obviously trying to be uncaring or unkind to her and blah, blah. It gets old.

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Other than the OP's post, the article makes some valid points.

flan

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Red flag: ""They didn't pick me up for church yesterday."

Who didn't pick him up for church? "They" indicates that he didn't ask any particular person, he just assumed that "someone" would pick him up.

Did he call and make arrangements with someone in particular? If so, then it wasn't "they", it would have been "he" or "she".

In the meantime, if anyone knew that his car and driver were out of town, "they" would have figured that he'd called someone else to arrange for a ride.



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Because he's a VICTIM, dontcha know and everyone else around is supposed to have read his mind and know exactly what he wants and how he wants it.

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If you don't welcome non-believers, how would you expect them to become believers?

But, that guy is off his rocker - "knowing my father was out of town, why didn't they come get me?" Because you are an adult, and you should be able to arrange transportation without relying on someone else to do it for you. Call and ask someone. It's really not that hard.

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I can barely keep track of my own schedule let alone someone else's life. I love how people will say "well you KNEW so and so was out of town or whatever". Um, no, I didn't know. OR, if I did know, I forgot because my job is to manage MY life and your job is to manage your life? Sheesh.

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People are not mind readers. Even though they may know your ride is out of town they would assume that you have already made arrangements for a ride.

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Maybe he thought the church bus would automatically pick him up on their rounds. Silly of him not to have made arrangements but maybe that is how he thought the church bus worked.

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lilyofcourse wrote:

The church is full of them. Every church has them. 

 



-- Edited by lilyofcourse on Wednesday 29th of October 2014 07:59:17 AM


"Full" of them?  No way. 

 

I don't doubt that every church has some people who are struggling with their faith, or maybe a few who go to church to make their spouse or parents happy without really believing--but it's a very small minority.   



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I don't think the way that it is worded is right.

I think that eventually, one would hope that the non-believer who might be coming to church BECOMES a believer. I don't think we want churches to be filled with people who never have any intention of even trying to come to faith. I think those people would simply be divisive in God's flock and would serve no good purpose to be there.

Certainly we would welcome those who want to explore the faith and who are trying to come to an understanding of God's Word, and there is certainly no timetable for that, but if they really have no honest intention to ever try to come to faith--I don't see the point.

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A lot of people come to church out of habit. Because mom and dad brought them and their parents brought them and it's just what you do on Sunday. They sit in the pews, listen to the sermons, participate in the programs, hold positions and do all the right things. But they are only doing it cause that is what they have always done.

When I say the church is full of non believers I don't mean every single seat in every single pew.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

A lot of people come to church out of habit. Because mom and dad brought them and their parents brought them and it's just what you do on Sunday. They sit in the pews, listen to the sermons, participate in the programs, hold positions and do all the right things. But they are only doing it cause that is what they have always done.

When I say the church is full of non believers I don't mean every single seat in every single pew.


You are not in a position to read anyone's heart.  I doubt the number is NEARLY as high as you seem to think it is.

 

Oh, and "full" usually means, you know, full.  



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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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I am not going to get into a argument over this.

No I don't know everyone's heart. But I do know that it happens.



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Not saying it doesn't happen--but you seem to think everyone who was raised in the church thinks that way.

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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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I was raised in church. So that would include me. I am not pointing out anyone.



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Owl drink to that!

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I don't think that's what she was saying at all, you are taking what she said way too literally

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lilyofcourse wrote:

I was raised in church. So that would include me. I am not pointing out anyone.


This is what you said:

 

Because mom and dad brought them and their parents brought them and it's just what you do on Sunday. They sit in the pews, listen to the sermons, participate in the programs, hold positions and do all the right things. But they are only doing it cause that is what they have always done. 

 

How is that NOT pointing out people who were raised in the church?   



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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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Not arguing with you. You will have to find someone else to argue with.

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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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VetteGirl wrote:

I don't think that's what she was saying at all, you are taking what she said way too literally


Thank you. I didn't think it was so hard to figure out.  



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So, in other words--you got nothing.

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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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Go have a drink Husker.

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huskerbb wrote:

I don't think the way that it is worded is right.

I think that eventually, one would hope that the non-believer who might be coming to church BECOMES a believer. I don't think we want churches to be filled with people who never have any intention of even trying to come to faith. I think those people would simply be divisive in God's flock and would serve no good purpose to be there.

Certainly we would welcome those who want to explore the faith and who are trying to come to an understanding of God's Word, and there is certainly no timetable for that, but if they really have no honest intention to ever try to come to faith--I don't see the point.


 I would hope you are in the minority. How are they possibly doing harm to anyone? Maybe they come for community, maybe a chance to reflect, to learn...

flan



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I honestly don't understand WHY someone would want to go become a captive audience and do songs, rituals and listen to sermons and preaching on something that they truly do not believe. Seems nonsensical to me.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I honestly don't understand WHY someone would want to go become a captive audience and do songs, rituals and listen to sermons and preaching on something that they truly do not believe. Seems nonsensical to me.


 I mentioned a few reasons. I don't think they WOULD go unless they enjoyed it.

flan



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I don't see why I would enjoy sitting and seeing people praise, worship and then hear Bible preaching and sermons if I didn't believe it. I don't have time to waste my time on something I would consider nonsense.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I don't see why I would enjoy sitting and seeing people praise, worship and then hear Bible preaching and sermons if I didn't believe it. I don't have time to waste my time on something I would consider nonsense.


 Obviously I don't.

flan



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Of course you do or you wouldn't be here! lol

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

Of course you do or you wouldn't be here! lol


 I'm only "here" because I have crush on you, darlin'.

flan



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I know a lot of people who go because it is expected of them. They really would rather not attend but there is family pressure. It isn't that they are non believers. They just don't want to go to church.

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I really couldn't care less why someone is sitting in church next me. I really have other things i need to do than sit beside someone pondering their motives.

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Southern_Belle wrote:

I know a lot of people who go because it is expected of them. They really would rather not attend but there is family pressure. It isn't that they are non believers. They just don't want to go to church.


Yes.  I am sure that is true.  But, isn't there some point in life when you turn into a grown up and decide to own your own choices?  And, then you simply tell Granpa, that sorry I won't be there Sunday, not my thing.   Or, you decide that if it makes Granpa happy, then it is worth putting yourself out a bit to do.  But, you can OWN that and not be like "oh I feel pressured".   I hope you know what  I mean? 



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Yep. I think a lot that go because they "have" to are worried about being cut off financially. Mom won't pay my cell bill, or they might get cut out of granny's will...

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Southern_Belle wrote:

I know a lot of people who go because it is expected of them. They really would rather not attend but there is family pressure. It isn't that they are non believers. They just don't want to go to church.


 I went as a teen, but once I was on my own, no.

I went with DH1 because it was important to him. I even taught Sunday School for a while.

flan



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Southern_Belle wrote:

Yep. I think a lot that go because they "have" to are worried about being cut off financially. Mom won't pay my cell bill, or they might get cut out of granny's will...


Then, they aren't owning their choices.  If you CHOOSE to continue to go to please Granny, then you are making a decision to go to please granny or mom or whomever.  And, there is nothing wrong with that.   There is nothing wrong with choosing to do things that will please others.  But, I get sick of the people who are grown ups who act like a victim of everything. 



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Their is a certain point in life where you have to realize that everyone does not have to approve of or validate your choices. And, that it's OK if they don't.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

Their is a certain point in life where you have to realize that everyone does not have to approve of or validate your choices. And, that it's OK if they don't.


 Absolutely, and that is SO freeing.

flan



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Who are all these people who need validation? I have met a few in my life but you seem to know so many LGS...lol

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I don't know. Probably mostly whiners on TV lol.

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Hey I am juat trying to stimulate conversation. The Board has been pretty slow.

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If i waited for someone else to validate my feelings it could take quite a while...They're MY feelings so I'm the only one who CAn know if they're valid

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Of course there's room. We welcome all, your motives are not ours to judge or question.

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Tinydancer wrote:

If i waited for someone else to validate my feelings it could take quite a while...They're MY feelings so I'm the only one who CAn know if they're valid


I am probably watching too much Dr. Phil!  LO!L!!  biggrin 



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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Tinydancer wrote:

If i waited for someone else to validate my feelings it could take quite a while...They're MY feelings so I'm the only one who CAn know if they're valid


I am probably watching too much Dr. Phil!  LO!L!!  biggrin 


 He is from the Oprah Winphrey school of airing ALL feelings. There are some we should keep to ourselves...lol  wink



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Is there room in the church for non believers? Apparently there is. Right beside the Pope.

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