TOTALLY GEEKED!

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

RE: Is There Room in the Church for Non-Believers?

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Oh like you care. You don't believe in God so why do you care what a supposed man of God says or what is said about him.
He doesn't believe God is Divine. So that makes him a nonbeliever.

If you don't believe in God, why would you care what a man who is supposed to be the mouthpiece of God says?

You need to decide what you want to believe and support. Then you can come tell me how to think or feel about someone who blatantly blasphemes God.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
Oh like you care. You don't believe in God so why do you care what a supposed man of God says or what is said about him.
He doesn't believe God is Divine. So that makes him a nonbeliever.

If you don't believe in God, why would you care what a man who is supposed to be the mouthpiece of God says?

You need to decide what you want to believe and support. Then you can come tell me how to think or feel about someone who blatantly blasphemes God.

There is no point in talking to you. Your mind is closed. I am not afraid of questions.

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Oh like you care. You don't believe in God so why do you care what a supposed man of God says or what is said about him.
He doesn't believe God is Divine. So that makes him a nonbeliever.

If you don't believe in God, why would you care what a man who is supposed to be the mouthpiece of God says?

You need to decide what you want to believe and support. Then you can come tell me how to think or feel about someone who blatantly blasphemes God.
There is no point in talking to you. Your mind is closed. I am not afraid of questions.
flan

Then why don't you ever answer them?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Oh like you care. You don't believe in God so why do you care what a supposed man of God says or what is said about him.
He doesn't believe God is Divine. So that makes him a nonbeliever.

If you don't believe in God, why would you care what a man who is supposed to be the mouthpiece of God says?

You need to decide what you want to believe and support. Then you can come tell me how to think or feel about someone who blatantly blasphemes God.
There is no point in talking to you. Your mind is closed. I am not afraid of questions.
flan
Then why don't you ever answer them?

I do...unless it's a trap.

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Oh like you care. You don't believe in God so why do you care what a supposed man of God says or what is said about him.
He doesn't believe God is Divine. So that makes him a nonbeliever.

If you don't believe in God, why would you care what a man who is supposed to be the mouthpiece of God says?

You need to decide what you want to believe and support. Then you can come tell me how to think or feel about someone who blatantly blasphemes God.
There is no point in talking to you. Your mind is closed. I am not afraid of questions.
flan
Then why don't you ever answer them?
I do...unless it's a trap.
flan

They are not traps. They are legitimate questions that point out the illogical reasoning in your arguments. The fact that you can't answer them without looking WRONG does not make it a trap.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Oh like you care. You don't believe in God so why do you care what a supposed man of God says or what is said about him.
He doesn't believe God is Divine. So that makes him a nonbeliever.

If you don't believe in God, why would you care what a man who is supposed to be the mouthpiece of God says?

You need to decide what you want to believe and support. Then you can come tell me how to think or feel about someone who blatantly blasphemes God.
There is no point in talking to you. Your mind is closed. I am not afraid of questions.
flan

Yes you are.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

There is nothing wrong with admitting doubt.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Oh like you care. You don't believe in God so why do you care what a supposed man of God says or what is said about him.
He doesn't believe God is Divine. So that makes him a nonbeliever.

If you don't believe in God, why would you care what a man who is supposed to be the mouthpiece of God says?

You need to decide what you want to believe and support. Then you can come tell me how to think or feel about someone who blatantly blasphemes God.
There is no point in talking to you. Your mind is closed. I am not afraid of questions.
flan
Yes you are.

Hallelujah!!! I have SEEN THE LIGHT.

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
There is nothing wrong with admitting doubt.

Of course not. How did Jesus treat Thomas? Did he cuss at him and call him names???

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Nope. He offered proof.

Would you need to touch the nail scars? Put your hand inside Jesus' side?

If you were standing face to face with God, would you know it? How? What proof would you need?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
Nope. He offered proof.

Would you need to touch the nail scars? Put your hand inside Jesus' side?

If you were standing face to face with God, would you know it? How? What proof would you need?

That was OBVIOUSLY my point, Lily.

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Nope. He offered proof.

Would you need to touch the nail scars? Put your hand inside Jesus' side?

If you were standing face to face with God, would you know it? How? What proof would you need?

That was OBVIOUSLY my point, Lily.
flan

So? You left 4 questions unanswered.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Nope. He offered proof.

Would you need to touch the nail scars? Put your hand inside Jesus' side?

If you were standing face to face with God, would you know it? How? What proof would you need?

That was OBVIOUSLY my point, Lily.
flan
So? You left 4 questions unanswered.

Actually, I left 5 questions unanswered.

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Actually you left 6.

So why not answer those?

I really am curious. Would you know Jesus if he was face to face with you? What proof would you need?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
Actually you left 6.

So why not answer those?

I really am curious. Would you know Jesus if he was face to face with you? What proof would you need?

I believe that humans are not the highest form of life in the Universe, but I also believe the Judeo-Christian concept of God is too narrow.

I believe that, if a God exists, he is inside us, rather than some vague celestial being, so in that case, yes, I have encountered God in everyone I interact with.

flan

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

We can all sincerely believe a lot of things and be sincerely wrong.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
We can all sincerely believe a lot of things and be sincerely wrong.

That is true.

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Actually you left 6.

So why not answer those?

I really am curious. Would you know Jesus if he was face to face with you? What proof would you need?
I believe that humans are not the highest form of life in the Universe, but I also believe the Judeo-Christian concept of God is too narrow.
I believe that, if a God exists, he is inside us, rather than some vague celestial being, so in that case, yes, I have encountered God in everyone I interact with.
flan

But that did not answer the questions. That is the essay answer. Not a real answer.

What proof do you need that God is real? Not some force inside us but a real being?

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

No amount of Proof is ever going to be proof enough Lilly. Jesus Christ Himself was here on the Planet. God appeared in the flesh to human beings. Many around him saw and didn't believe. If He did appear, then it wouldn't be convincing enough. Or, they would think a trick of magic was being played or that a video of Him was fake or whatever. No amount of proof is enough.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

That is why am asking.

If He were in front of you, would you know it?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
That is why am asking.

If He were in front of you, would you know it?

Obviously you won't stop until I say "No."

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I want to know what it would take for you to believe.

But I will leave you alone because clearly you are not sure. And that is fine.

I always want to ask this question when I hear someone say they don't know or don't believe.

I have a hard time understanding the not believing because it seems to have always been something in me that makes me believe. I cant tell you why I believe so profoundly. I just do. It's almost as if it is something innate in me. I have never had any doubt. I know God is real just like I know I am real.

So I truly am curious why another doesn't believe.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
I want to know what it would take for you to believe.

But I will leave you alone because clearly you are not sure. And that is fine.

I always want to ask this question when I hear someone say they don't know or don't believe.

I have a hard time understanding the not believing because it seems to have always been something in me that makes me believe. I cant tell you why I believe so profoundly. I just do. It's almost as if it is something innate in me. I have never had any doubt. I know God is real just like I know I am real.

So I truly am curious why another doesn't believe.

Imagine feeling the opposite.

I don't feel "incomplete." When I was attending a Catholic Church, the words seemed like I was speaking a foreign language.

I feel more awe & reverence in nature than I do in a Church. Does that help any?

flan

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
I don't think the way that it is worded is right.

I think that eventually, one would hope that the non-believer who might be coming to church BECOMES a believer. I don't think we want churches to be filled with people who never have any intention of even trying to come to faith. I think those people would simply be divisive in God's flock and would serve no good purpose to be there.

Certainly we would welcome those who want to explore the faith and who are trying to come to an understanding of God's Word, and there is certainly no timetable for that, but if they really have no honest intention to ever try to come to faith--I don't see the point.
I would hope you are in the minority. How are they possibly doing harm to anyone? Maybe they come for community, maybe a chance to reflect, to learn...
flan

Not if they never have any intention of coming to faith.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
No amount of Proof is ever going to be proof enough Lilly. Jesus Christ Himself was here on the Planet. God appeared in the flesh to human beings. Many around him saw and didn't believe. If He did appear, then it wouldn't be convincing enough. Or, they would think a trick of magic was being played or that a video of Him was fake or whatever. No amount of proof is enough.

Exactly.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
I want to know what it would take for you to believe.

But I will leave you alone because clearly you are not sure. And that is fine.

I always want to ask this question when I hear someone say they don't know or don't believe.

I have a hard time understanding the not believing because it seems to have always been something in me that makes me believe. I cant tell you why I believe so profoundly. I just do. It's almost as if it is something innate in me. I have never had any doubt. I know God is real just like I know I am real.

So I truly am curious why another doesn't believe.

Imagine feeling the opposite.
I don't feel "incomplete." When I was attending a Catholic Church, the words seemed like I was speaking a foreign language.
I feel more awe & reverence in nature than I do in a Church. Does that help any?
flan

Well hopefully you can help me understand it.

So in nature, when you feel this awe and reverence, can you not see God in it?

I don't have to be in a church to feel that. I feel it all the time. Everything around me proves that God is real to me.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
I want to know what it would take for you to believe.

But I will leave you alone because clearly you are not sure. And that is fine.

I always want to ask this question when I hear someone say they don't know or don't believe.

I have a hard time understanding the not believing because it seems to have always been something in me that makes me believe. I cant tell you why I believe so profoundly. I just do. It's almost as if it is something innate in me. I have never had any doubt. I know God is real just like I know I am real.

So I truly am curious why another doesn't believe.

Imagine feeling the opposite.
I don't feel "incomplete." When I was attending a Catholic Church, the words seemed like I was speaking a foreign language.
I feel more awe & reverence in nature than I do in a Church. Does that help any?
flan
Well hopefully you can help me understand it.
So in nature, when you feel this awe and reverence, can you not see God in it?
I don't have to be in a church to feel that. I feel it all the time. Everything around me proves that God is real to me.

I feel it is complete in and of itself.

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

That it came from nothing?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
I don't think the way that it is worded is right.

I think that eventually, one would hope that the non-believer who might be coming to church BECOMES a believer. I don't think we want churches to be filled with people who never have any intention of even trying to come to faith. I think those people would simply be divisive in God's flock and would serve no good purpose to be there.

Certainly we would welcome those who want to explore the faith and who are trying to come to an understanding of God's Word, and there is certainly no timetable for that, but if they really have no honest intention to ever try to come to faith--I don't see the point.
I would hope you are in the minority. How are they possibly doing harm to anyone? Maybe they come for community, maybe a chance to reflect, to learn...
flan
Not if they never have any intention of coming to faith.

And THANKFULLY not everyone feels the same as you.

flan

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
I don't think the way that it is worded is right.

I think that eventually, one would hope that the non-believer who might be coming to church BECOMES a believer. I don't think we want churches to be filled with people who never have any intention of even trying to come to faith. I think those people would simply be divisive in God's flock and would serve no good purpose to be there.

Certainly we would welcome those who want to explore the faith and who are trying to come to an understanding of God's Word, and there is certainly no timetable for that, but if they really have no honest intention to ever try to come to faith--I don't see the point.
I would hope you are in the minority. How are they possibly doing harm to anyone? Maybe they come for community, maybe a chance to reflect, to learn...
flan
Not if they never have any intention of coming to faith.
And THANKFULLY not everyone feels the same as you.
flan

That is ridiculous. Why would anyone who not only doesn't believe--but has NO INTENTION of every doing so go to church?

I would welcome unbelievers who have a sincere desire to become part of the faith.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Because they go to church cause they have always gone to church.

It's a habit. It's a status thing.

So many reasons. Not saying any of them are good ones but there are many.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Flan. Thanks for talking to me. I hope you didn't mind my questions and I am sorry if they seemed anything other than plain old curious.

I am not going to continue with it here though. If you want to talk more about it then you can PM. If not that is ok too.

It's just not worth the Husker factor to continue here.

huskerbb · Guru

THIS is the purpose of church:

“11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” – Eph 4:11-16

Those who attend need to be in "unity of faith", or at least "till we all come" to that point (verse 13). Unbelievers who never have any intention of doing so are the "sleight of me, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive" (verse 14).

The point is that unbelievers who have a desire to come to the unity of faith are welcomed with open arms. Those who do not have that desire are divisive.

Church is PARTLY about fellowship--but it's about fellowship with other believers. It's about building each other up in faith. An unbeliever is not going to do that. They are going to tear down.

-- Edited by huskerbb on Thursday 30th of October 2014 07:19:00 PM

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
Flan. Thanks for talking to me. I hope you didn't mind my questions and I am sorry if they seemed anything other than plain old curious.

I am not going to continue with it here though. If you want to talk more about it then you can PM. If not that is ok too.

It's just not worth the Husker factor to continue here.

I don't mind at all, Lily.

In the same way that you don't understand NOT believing in God...I guess I'm the opposite side of the equation.

Believe me, I have discussed this with both husbands, friends and, of course, on message boards.

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Is this one of those International House of Coffee commercials? smile

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

I am pretty much with Flan here. . . I liked church, when I went. I likes the community, the words, the peacefulness of the building. But, I never once really believed in a higher being. I never 'felt moved by the spirit', or anything like it. Sometimes I almost believe, but I often feel like it's more that I want there to be something, rather than actual belief. But, I have never met an interpretation of God that I actually feel I could worship, so maybe it is for the best that I do not believe in one.
The guys are trying to convince me to go with them on Sunday. They insist I will be welcome. And that we will magically get done chores in time for us all to go.
And, even when I was in desperate situations, where my life was truly at risk, I never did ask God for help. (This is because people often bring up how atheists would pray if the situation was dire enough. It annoys me.)

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Maybe it's all a big Truman show.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
I am pretty much with Flan here. . . I liked church, when I went. I likes the community, the words, the peacefulness of the building. But, I never once really believed in a higher being. I never 'felt moved by the spirit', or anything like it. Sometimes I almost believe, but I often feel like it's more that I want there to be something, rather than actual belief. But, I have never met an interpretation of God that I actually feel I could worship, so maybe it is for the best that I do not believe in one.
The guys are trying to convince me to go with them on Sunday. They insist I will be welcome. And that we will magically get done chores in time for us all to go.
And, even when I was in desperate situations, where my life was truly at risk, I never did ask God for help. (This is because people often bring up how atheists would pray if the situation was dire enough. It annoys me.)

The cliche "There are no atheists in foxholes" always makes me roll my eyes.

flan

Domestic Engineer · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
THIS is the purpose of church:

“11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” – Eph 4:11-16

Those who attend need to be in "unity of faith", or at least "till we all come" to that point (verse 13). Unbelievers who never have any intention of doing so are the "sleight of me, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive" (verse 14).

The point is that unbelievers who have a desire to come to the unity of faith are welcomed with open arms. Those who do not have that desire are divisive.

Church is PARTLY about fellowship--but it's about fellowship with other believers. It's about building each other up in faith. An unbeliever is not going to do that. They are going to tear down.

-- Edited by huskerbb on Thursday 30th of October 2014 07:19:00 PM

I can agree with most everything, but the bolded. DH regularly attends church with me, but has little interest in religion. He goes because what it means to me. He is supportive of others, just not in the spiritual way.

Someday, I hope that his interest in believing changes.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

To me going if I don't believe would be like going to a sewing club when I hate sewing. Or joining a ski club not wanting to ever ski. Why would I? I think I can find community in things that matter to me.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
To me going if I don't believe would be like going to a sewing club when I hate sewing. Or joining a ski club not wanting to ever ski. Why would I? I think I can find community in things that matter to me.

Spirituality matters a lot to me.

flan

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

My SIL goes to church every Sunday because they get a free meal afterward.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Free eats! Winner winner chicken dinner with a side of God!

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Free eats! Winner winner chicken dinner with a side of God!

Yep. Every Sunday after church my IL's take her and the brood to dinner at the restaurant of her choosing. That's the only reason she goes.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Well who knows? Personal reasons can be complicated. So if you are happy going then keep going.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Well who knows? Personal reasons can be complicated. So if you are happy going then keep going.

She's a moocher. See the vent thread. She cheated on her husband. Why? Because she could. She is just not a nice person. But then she has no issues tearing apart gay people or other people she deems socially unacceptable. And, for the record, I am one of those people.