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Post Info TOPIC: Is Defiance a Medical Condition?


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Is Defiance a Medical Condition?
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Is Defiance a Medical Condition?

The Mental Health Issues of Children and Adolescents, Part II

In real medicine, you use symptoms to help you discern a cause, which then helps you pick a treatment. You take fever, fatigue, swelling, and so on as indicators of, say, a particular virus, and then you attempt to deal with the virus. If you can’t discern the cause or if you can’t decide between two or more causes, you run more tests and, while you are trying to identify the cause, you do things you know are likely to help relieve the symptoms.

In the meantime, as you seriously look for the cause, you work to reduce the pain or bring down the fever. You are reducing the pain and bringing down the fever while you continue to investigate what is actually causing the fever and the pain. You do not focus all of your efforts on reducing the pain or on bringing down the fever. You continue your investigations. You are trying to figure out what is going on. Your job isn’t merely to treat symptoms.

One of our neighbors recently suffered from terrible stomach pains. For a long time, on the order of two months, no conclusive diagnosis could be reached among the four contenders vying as the cause of her affliction. Finally it was conclusively determined that it was cancer located in a certain stomach valve. Treatment began immediately. All along she was being given relief for her symptoms—relief for the pain, help with her inability to keep food down—while the cause was being determined. Treatment for the actual affliction could only commence once it was identified. That is how medicine works.

In the pseudo-medical specialty of “children’s mental health” something very different goes on. There you take the report of a child’s behavior—for example, that little Johnny pulled on the braids of the girl sitting in front of him—and for no reason that you can justify you call that a “symptom of a mental disorder.” You collect several of these “symptoms of mental disorders”—often four is enough—and you attach a provided label to that “symptom picture.”

The label might sound like “oppositional defiant disorder.” Once that name is announced, chemicals are provided. Zero interest is shown in what is causing the behavior; zero interest is shown in whether the behavior reflects something biological going on, something psychological going on, or something situational going on. This is not medicine, no matter how many white coats are in evidence.

A child who loses his temper, argues with his parents, defies his parents’ rules, and is spiteful and resentful is given, based on these four “symptoms,” the pseudo-medical sounding label of “oppositional defiant disorder” and put on chemicals whose job is make him more obedient. This is not medicine. This is behavior control instituted to make the lives of adults easier. Why not ask little Johnny why he is angry and resentful? Is that such a preposterous approach? Why not step back and see if his family is in chaos? Why not look at his life and not just his “symptoms”? Why presume that a child arguing with his parents is caused by some impossible-to-find medical condition? Isn’t it more likely—by a thousand-fold—that he is angry with them?  

We don’t know why little Johnny is acting the way he is acting. But we do not believe it is cause-less and we do not really believe that it is the result of a medical condition. We must test for genuine organic problems like brain damage or neurological damage that can cause explosive rage but  in the absence of such biological challenges we are obliged to presume that little Johnny has everyday human reasons for his anger. Once you rule out brain damage and other possible biological causes of rage, your next step should not be to posit a made-up, invisible medical condition but rather to treat little Johnny like a human being with everyday human reasons for his anger and resentment.

One fact alone should prove the absurdity of considering these behaviors a pseudo-medical “mental disorder.” Imagine for a second that I said to you that my not being able to see any symptoms of your cancer was proof that you had cancer. Or imagine that I said to you that my not being able to see a break in your bone on an x-ray was proof that you had a broken bone. You would find those pretty odd assertions. What is fascinating is that mental health service providers are warned that they may not get to witness any of these “oppositional” behaviors because a child with this “disorder” is likely not to demonstrate any defiance except with his parents and teachers!

Unlike in real medicine, where the sore is visible both at home and in the examining room, with the behaviors associated with “oppositional defiant disorder” those behaviors are likely only observable when little Johnny is actually angry, namely at school and at home. It is absurd but true that an indicator that you have the mental disorder of “oppositional defiant disorder” is that you do not display any signs of it when you are talking to someone you don’t happen to hate. Seriously, shouldn’t the fact that little Johnny is only angry around his parents suggest that little Johnny is angry with his parents?    

Picture what a provider is doing here. He does not personally see any signs of little Johnny’s oppositional defiant disorder and he takes not seeing them as further proof that little Johnny has an oppositional defiant disorder. He relies on reports of things that he has not observed for himself, things that are of course more logically signs of rebellion, protest, and anger than “symptoms of a mental disorder,” and from those reports he “diagnoses” a pseudo-medical condition called a “mental disorder” and moves on to dispensing chemicals. He has not seen the “disorder,” he has no tests for the “disorder,” and he is basing his “diagnosis” in part on the fact that he has seen nothing of the “disorder”! 

This is akin to the absurd claim made that proof of the presence of an attention deficit disorder is the fact that you do not display it when something interests you. Might it not be the case that you like to pay attention to things that interest you, like sports and videos games, and don’t like to pay attention to things that don’t interest you, like math class and your parents’ dinner conversation? It is only through the looking glass that my interest in the things that interest me and that my failure to rage at someone who hasn’t angered me are signs of some pseudo-medical “mental disorder.”

There are many things we wish for little Johnny. We wish that he were having an easier time of it. We wish that he could stop his raging, for his own sake, since he is making everyone around him dislike him. We wish we knew what was causing his difficulties so that we could offer him help at the same level as his difficulties: if he is raging because school is too difficult for him, we would offer one sort of help, if he is raging because his parents are abusive alcoholics, we would offer another sort of help, if he is raging because he can’t abide his parents’ strict rules, we would offer another sort of help. We wish all this for Johnny.       

If a child has a medical condition, treat the medical condition. If a child is angry with his parents, do not call that a medical condition. Labeling an angry child with the pseudo-medical sounding “mental disorder” label of “oppositional defiant disorder” may serve adult needs for peace and order, just as prisons do. But it is not medicine and it is not right. Little Johnny is making it very difficult on the adults around him, who will naturally return the favor and make it hard on him. But that he is making life hard is not the same thing as being mentally ill.

We simply must stop saying that he is suffering from a mental disorder, that is, that he has a medical or pseudo-medical condition. It makes no sense on the face of it to believe that an angry child is angry because he has a disease. It makes much more sense to believe that he is angry because he is angry, just as you are angry when you are angry. Maybe little Johnny is a lot angrier than you are—but that he is angrier than you are doesn’t turn his anger into a disease. As a society, we may not be equipped to deal with all of our sad, anxious, and angry children—but the answer to that shortcoming must not be to call them all diseased.

**

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rethinking-psychology/201410/the-mental-health-children-part-1

Dr. Maisel

This is the second in a series on the mental health issues of childhood and adolescence. Part 1 can be found here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rethinking-psychology/201411/is-defiance-medical-condition

 



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The first time I heard "Oppositional Defiant Disorder", I thought what idiocy.

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I think a lot of "defiance" issues are simply issues of someone who feels entitled to have the world revolve at their command. So sad, too bad. Life isn't fair, get over yourself.

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My son went thru a period of teen angst and teen anger. And, finally, I just said, you know, you have a good life. And, if you want to get angry about stupid crap that doesn't matter, then go ahead. But, I personally don't like walking around with a knot in my stomach every day and if you do, then carry on. But, I am not going to feel bad because you want to do that, nor am I going to walk on eggshells trying to make you happy. Happiness comes from you and you alone. He eventually got over it, lol.

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Yes. It can be a medical term. It can also be the result other things. You ever have a chronic problem that really just got on your nerves?

I know J was on steroids for a long time as a child due to chronic sinus infections. And it did create a lot of challenges with his behavior.

(honestly, I would like to see a study done on the connection between steroids and autism)

I know that after my heart attack I went through a period in which I was angry at the world. There was no real reason for it. But what ever happened, anger was the emotion that seemed to come out first. It seems that when I asked my doctor about it, he said that was not uncommon.

I do think it is real.

HOWEVER

I do think, like a lot of other diagnosis, it is used when it shouldn't be.





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And there is a difference between being defiant and being stubborn.

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lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. It can be a medical term. It can also be the result other things. You ever have a chronic problem that really just got on your nerves?

I know J was on steroids for a long time as a child due to chronic sinus infections. And it did create a lot of challenges with his behavior.

(honestly, I would like to see a study done on the connection between steroids and autism)

I know that after my heart attack I went through a period in which I was angry at the world. There was no real reason for it. But what ever happened, anger was the emotion that seemed to come out first. It seems that when I asked my doctor about it, he said that was not uncommon.

I do think it is real.

HOWEVER

I do think, like a lot of other diagnosis, it is used when it shouldn't be.




Anger can be a condition of illness, but it is not in of itself an Illness.  Yes, if you are dealing with chronic pain, chronic conditions, medical issues, you can become angry or depressed as a result.  The point of the article is that it is unlikely to be a diagnosis in of itself.  It may be a symptom, not  a disease. 



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Why not? If depression can be a medical diagnosis why cant defiance?

It's all a matter of what and how chemicals are being released and absorbed.



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I think anger and defiance and stubbornness are different things are they not? Defiance is more of an action than a feeling? You may feel angry, you may feel depressed, sad, lonely, happy, joyful, whatever. You aren't "defiant" until you back that up with an action. So, you may be angry at your teacher or life in general, but then refusing to do your homework because you are angry would then be 'defiance". So, you can still do your homework and be angry or depressed or have whatever feelings you are having. Two different things.

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I've seen repeatedly that people who have a frontal lobe brain injury are "difficult", defiant, and angry. In those cases there is a clear medical reason.

That doesn't mean that they should be drugged because of it.

 

I've also seen my brother's two sons, who were verbally abused by their mother, put on Ritalin because the older one didn't pay attention much in class, and, along with 20% of the boys in his elementary school, was "diagnose" as ADHD by people who (1) wanted kids to be compliant, and (2) made money from the diagnosis and treatment.

His brother was put on Ritalin because he was also not the most compliant, happy little boy (at least in part because of his mother's abuse).

He wasn't disruptive, but his mother wanted him on Ritalin. So the school employees diagnosed him and sent him to a doctor who diagnosed EVERY boy as ADHD.

 

When these boys visited my family, away from their parents, they were normal, cooperative, smart little kids. Until they were on Ritalin, then they were cooperative little zombies.

 



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School employees don't "diagnose" and put people on Ritalin. Only a doctor can do that. And, only a doctor can prescribe it. Yes, the School may be asked to participate in filling out a questionnaire, regarding behavior in the classroom.



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lilyofcourse wrote:

Why not? If depression can be a medical diagnosis why cant defiance?

It's all a matter of what and how chemicals are being released and absorbed.


 No it isn't.  It's about how one chooses to live their life.  As a taxpayer I do not want to support someone on disability because the are defiant, as the case with depression. There are so many treatment programs and anti depressants out there for people to claim depression as a disability. 



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Being "defiant" doesn't make one a very good employee. Sooo, if you want to get a job, then you have to learn one thing. To SHUT UP and DO your JOB and play the game. Sorry, if you don't "want" too, wah, wah. You are persona non grata until you have worked your way up. Then, you can speak and maybe someone will do things your way.

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The Whys of anything only matter to a point.  If there is work to be done, you need to do it.



-- Edited by Lady Gaga Snerd on Sunday 16th of November 2014 05:44:29 PM

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Why is being a normal kid labeled? Let kids be kids for crying out loud.
I swear, people are far less tolerant of kids today then ever before in history.
Good grief, every single boy I grew up with would have been labeled by todays standards. no

Oh, wait, MONEY is involved. evileye



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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

School employees don't "diagnose" and put people on Ritalin. Only a doctor can do that. And, only a doctor can prescribe it. Yes, the School may be asked to participate in filling out a questionnaire, regarding behavior in the classroom.


Right, the Principal didn't "diagnose" him, the Principal TOLD the parents they had to take him to Dr. Whoziz and get him on Ritalin. Dr. Whoziz prescribed Ritalin for every boy the school sent his way. 20% of the boys in that "good" school. 

 

 



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Why is your brother allowing his wife to abuse his kids?

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I think being a doormat is more of a disorder than being defiant.

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ed11563 wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

School employees don't "diagnose" and put people on Ritalin. Only a doctor can do that. And, only a doctor can prescribe it. Yes, the School may be asked to participate in filling out a questionnaire, regarding behavior in the classroom.


Right, the Principal didn't "diagnose" him, the Principal TOLD the parents they had to take him to Dr. Whoziz and get him on Ritalin. Dr. Whoziz prescribed Ritalin for every boy the school sent his way. 20% of the boys in that "good" school. 

 

 


Yeah. Schools do push this. If kid isn't compliant enough they are labeled a trouble maker and if it continues or the right one gets involved, the kid will be on Ritalin before the year is out.



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Lawyerlady itherrote:

I think being a doormat is more of a disorder than being defiant.


 Is it an either/or?



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Lawyerlady wrote:

I think being a doormat is more of a disorder than being defiant.


 that is not a disorder, but a weak person and one I will not support on welfare.  Grow a pair.  I did.



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I think IKWTDS has it.

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biggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin



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I was going to say, "being defiant could be a medical condition once they get knocked up-side the head."

But I tend to agree with the article. Mental health professionals, as well as medical professionals, seem to be more interested in administering a drug to alleviate symptoms rather than really look for causality.

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I know what to do_sometimes wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

I think being a doormat is more of a disorder than being defiant.


 that is not a disorder, but a weak person and one I will not support on welfare.  Grow a pair.  I did.


 Doormats make very good employees in some places so they are often not unemployed because they tend to do what they are told or are "supposed to do".  You can teach a doormat to be more assertive.  It is much harder to teach a defiant Ahole to tow the line.   biggrin



-- Edited by Lady Gaga Snerd on Monday 17th of November 2014 06:28:45 AM

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I know what to do_sometimes wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

I think being a doormat is more of a disorder than being defiant.


 that is not a disorder, but a weak person and one I will not support on welfare.  Grow a pair.  I did.


 I don't want to support any ADULT on welfare who has 2 good arms and legs and can walk and talk.  Um, no.  blankstare



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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I know what to do_sometimes wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

I think being a doormat is more of a disorder than being defiant.


 that is not a disorder, but a weak person and one I will not support on welfare.  Grow a pair.  I did.


 Doormats make very good employees in some places so they are often not unemployed because they tend to do what they are told or are "supposed to do".  You can teach a doormat to be more assertive.  It is much harder to teach a defiant Ahole to tow the line.   biggrin



-- Edited by Lady Gaga Snerd on Monday 17th of November 2014 06:28:45 AM


 So you're saying that I would be a problem employee? evileye

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I would squash you like a bug!

 

 



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Then you would have to explain my absence...or yours!

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