TOTALLY GEEKED!

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

RE: Grandma makes 9 yr old run until she dies

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Where did it say 10 pounds? Show me.

And 3 hours? where did it say that?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Fort Worth Mom wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
I am not down playing this child's death.

I am questioning the report that the activities of that one afternoon caused the death.
The activities of that one afternoon, killed that child. What more is there to question?
The grandmother said, `"I gonna run her `til she can't run no more,"
She got her wish. That poor child, will never run again.

THANK YOU for pointing out the obvious.

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
Where did it say 10 pounds? Show me.

And 3 hours? where did it say that?

Lily, maybe if you actually READ the story...

older woman made the child run for three hours as punishment, and the younger woman -- who was nine months pregnant at the time and has since given birth -- did nothing to intervene

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
No. I don't think it was child abuse.

I think it was extreme punishment and that that girl was going to have ended un in the hospital no matter what that day.

Running and carrying the wood is not what caused her to die. It was something else. Did the running and carrying the wood help matters? No. Did it cause her death? No. Did exacerbate something else that was already going on? Yes.

Do I think this was child abuse? No.

Do I think there was maybe something else going on for a longer period of time? Yes.

But this one thing, in and of itself was not abuse.

I know. Kids are not supposed to be punished for anything. They are not to be disciplined at all. They should all be reasoned with and allowed to express themselves. And they should never have to do anything but sit in a perfectly temperature controlled room with well balanced meals and timed activities that they like. Never do a chore or face any consequences of any kind.

I do not think this was abuse. Extreme and over the top punishment for what offence but not abuse.

Lily, is ANYTHING child abuse to you?

flan

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

lilyofcourse wrote:
Where did it say 10 pounds? Show me.

And 3 hours? where did it say that?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/01/10550273-grandmother-to-face-capital-murder-charge-in-girls-running-death

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
No. I don't think it was child abuse.

I think it was extreme punishment and that that girl was going to have ended un in the hospital no matter what that day.

Running and carrying the wood is not what caused her to die. It was something else. Did the running and carrying the wood help matters? No. Did it cause her death? No. Did exacerbate something else that was already going on? Yes.

Do I think this was child abuse? No.

Do I think there was maybe something else going on for a longer period of time? Yes.

But this one thing, in and of itself was not abuse.

I know. Kids are not supposed to be punished for anything. They are not to be disciplined at all. They should all be reasoned with and allowed to express themselves. And they should never have to do anything but sit in a perfectly temperature controlled room with well balanced meals and timed activities that they like. Never do a chore or face any consequences of any kind.

I do not think this was abuse. Extreme and over the top punishment for what offence but not abuse.

Lily, is ANYTHING child abuse to you?
flan

It is beyond comprehension how some people can defend despicable human beings.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
No. I don't think it was child abuse.

I think it was extreme punishment and that that girl was going to have ended un in the hospital no matter what that day.

Running and carrying the wood is not what caused her to die. It was something else. Did the running and carrying the wood help matters? No. Did it cause her death? No. Did exacerbate something else that was already going on? Yes.

Do I think this was child abuse? No.

Do I think there was maybe something else going on for a longer period of time? Yes.

But this one thing, in and of itself was not abuse.

I know. Kids are not supposed to be punished for anything. They are not to be disciplined at all. They should all be reasoned with and allowed to express themselves. And they should never have to do anything but sit in a perfectly temperature controlled room with well balanced meals and timed activities that they like. Never do a chore or face any consequences of any kind.

I do not think this was abuse. Extreme and over the top punishment for what offence but not abuse.

Lily, is ANYTHING child abuse to you?
flan
It is beyond comprehension how some people can defend despicable human beings.

Yup.

Oh, wait...there's "MORE" to the story...

Let's make Grandma RUN for THREE HOURS straight with NO WATER...

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

ed11563 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
This happened in February. Even in Alabama it's doubtful it was hot out.
When people exercise in hot weather, they feel sweaty because the sweat soaks into their clothing, or runs down their skin.
In cold weather, people sweat just as much, but it evaporates quickly. Either way, the body is losing large amounts of water and salt.
It's reasonable to suspect that loss of water and salt lead to ventricular fibrillation.
When will we see the autopsy report?

February temps range from upper 50's to upper 60's...factor in humidity & the sun, maybe.

flan

Fort Worth Mom · Mod/Penguin lover/Princess!

The trial has been pushed to February, 2015.

Garrard capital murder trial pushed back until Feb. 23

By Donna Thornton
Times Staff Writer

Published: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 at 11:42 a.m.

Last Modified: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 at 12:20 p.m.

The capital murder trial of an Etowah County grandmother accused of running her 9-year-old granddaughter to death in 2012 has been reset for next year.

Joyce Hardin Garrard, 49, was scheduled to go to trial Sept. 22.

However, Etowah County Circuit Judge William Ogletree issued an order Thursday moving the trial to the Feb. 23 criminal jury docket.

The judge's order states, “Due to discovery and procedural issues before the Court,” the case is reset. The order states jurors will be summoned for jury questionnaires Feb. 17. The prosecution and the defense will submit jury questionnaires on or before Feb. 9.

The parties were in court Aug. 18, in what was expected to have been the last pretrial motion in the capital case.

Garrard was arrested in February 2012 after her granddaughter, Savannah Hardin, collapsed at her Hudson Hollow Road home after the girl allegedly had been made to run for hours as punishment for a lie about eating candy. She died three days later.

The girl's stepmother, Jessica Mae Hardin, is charged with felony murder in the case.

All parties in the case are under a gag order from the court, banning them from commenting on the case or the court proceedings.

NAOW · Vette's SS

lilyofcourse wrote:
No. I don't think it was child abuse.

I think it was extreme punishment and that that girl was going to have ended un in the hospital no matter what that day.

Running and carrying the wood is not what caused her to die. It was something else. Did the running and carrying the wood help matters? No. Did it cause her death? No. Did exacerbate something else that was already going on? Yes.

Do I think this was child abuse? No.

Do I think there was maybe something else going on for a longer period of time? Yes.

But this one thing, in and of itself was not abuse.

I know. Kids are not supposed to be punished for anything. They are not to be disciplined at all. They should all be reasoned with and allowed to express themselves. And they should never have to do anything but sit in a perfectly temperature controlled room with well balanced meals and timed activities that they like. Never do a chore or face any consequences of any kind.

I do not think this was abuse. Extreme and over the top punishment for what offence but not abuse.

WOW.

Did you even read the story? It says right in it that she was forced to run for THREE hours straight. Without stopping. Without a break fora drink of water. Trained runners don't even do that. Oh, and add in the firewood she had to carry while doing it.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Extreme punishment that harms a kid IS abuse.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lawyerlady wrote:
Extreme punishment that harms a kid IS abuse.

Pretty simple concept...

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Abuse is abuse.

Running and carrying firewood isn't. Not in my book. Maybe because I did both my whole life. It didn't kill me.

And don't give me that "did you do it at the same time" crap. At times, yes.

I am not defending what was done. I haven't the first time. I have questioned the reason why that made a 9 year old dehydrate so quickly. I have asked questions instead of jumping on an emotional bandwagon.

Yes it is horrible that a child died. But the carrying wood and running is not abuse.

I don't know why you cant separate the two.

Everything is not abuse.

Extreme punishment? So a whipping is abuse? Is standing in the corner for 30 minutes abuse if the kid is 7? Is making a child move everything in the garage and clean it out by himself abuse? There are all kinds of punishments that a lot of you would consider extreme. I bet you consider the punishments you extreme.

you can get mad at me all you want, I don't care. I still say the carrying wood and running is not abuse. But what ever caused the extreme dehydration could be. I don't believe it was the 3 hours that is being talked about. I believe it is something more.

NAOW · Vette's SS

lilyofcourse wrote:
Abuse is abuse.

Running and carrying firewood isn't. Not in my book. Maybe because I did both my whole life. It didn't kill me.

And don't give me that "did you do it at the same time" crap. At times, yes.

I am not defending what was done. I haven't the first time. I have questioned the reason why that made a 9 year old dehydrate so quickly. I have asked questions instead of jumping on an emotional bandwagon.

Yes it is horrible that a child died. But the carrying wood and running is not abuse.

I don't know why you cant separate the two.

Everything is not abuse.

Extreme punishment? So a whipping is abuse? Is standing in the corner for 30 minutes abuse if the kid is 7? Is making a child move everything in the garage and clean it out by himself abuse? There are all kinds of punishments that a lot of you would consider extreme. I bet you consider the punishments you extreme.

you can get mad at me all you want, I don't care. I still say the carrying wood and running is not abuse. But what ever caused the extreme dehydration could be. I don't believe it was the 3 hours that is being talked about. I believe it is something more.

No one is saying running and carrying firewood is abuse. Being forced to run and carry firewood for THREE HOURS STRAIGHT is abuse. With out stopping. Without taking a drink of water. Vomiting from overexertion and still making them keep running.

Please tell me how many times you did that? Or made your kids do that?

NAOW · Vette's SS

lilyofcourse wrote:
Abuse is abuse.

Running and carrying firewood isn't. Not in my book. Maybe because I did both my whole life. It didn't kill me.

And don't give me that "did you do it at the same time" crap. At times, yes.

I am not defending what was done. I haven't the first time. I have questioned the reason why that made a 9 year old dehydrate so quickly. I have asked questions instead of jumping on an emotional bandwagon.

Yes it is horrible that a child died. But the carrying wood and running is not abuse.

I don't know why you cant separate the two.

Everything is not abuse.

Extreme punishment? So a whipping is abuse? Is standing in the corner for 30 minutes abuse if the kid is 7? Is making a child move everything in the garage and clean it out by himself abuse? There are all kinds of punishments that a lot of you would consider extreme. I bet you consider the punishments you extreme.

you can get mad at me all you want, I don't care. I still say the carrying wood and running is not abuse. But what ever caused the extreme dehydration could be. I don't believe it was the 3 hours that is being talked about. I believe it is something more.

I do think whipping is extreme, and I could never do it, but the rest no. I don't think those are even close to abuse.

Lexxy · My dog name is Sasha, too!

It is the extremeness of what she was made to do that is abuse not the act of running with firewood. I know I've run out to the wood pile & run back to the house with an arm load of wood plenty of times. No way could I have done it for three straigh hours. I doubt anyone here could.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
Abuse is abuse.

Running and carrying firewood isn't. Not in my book. Maybe because I did both my whole life. It didn't kill me.

And don't give me that "did you do it at the same time" crap. At times, yes.

I am not defending what was done. I haven't the first time. I have questioned the reason why that made a 9 year old dehydrate so quickly. I have asked questions instead of jumping on an emotional bandwagon.

Yes it is horrible that a child died. But the carrying wood and running is not abuse.

I don't know why you cant separate the two.

Everything is not abuse.

Extreme punishment? So a whipping is abuse? Is standing in the corner for 30 minutes abuse if the kid is 7? Is making a child move everything in the garage and clean it out by himself abuse? There are all kinds of punishments that a lot of you would consider extreme. I bet you consider the punishments you extreme.

you can get mad at me all you want, I don't care. I still say the carrying wood and running is not abuse. But what ever caused the extreme dehydration could be. I don't believe it was the 3 hours that is being talked about. I believe it is something more.

How long were you forced to do that? Was it "punishment" for supposedly stealing a friggin' CANDY BAR?

Several of us have no clue how your mind works...

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lexxy wrote:
It is the extremeness of what she was made to do that is abuse not the act of running with firewood. I know I've run out to the wood pile & run back to the house with an arm load of wood plenty of times. No way could I have done it for three straigh hours. I doubt anyone here could.

Apparently Super Lily can...

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

NAOW wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Abuse is abuse.

Running and carrying firewood isn't. Not in my book. Maybe because I did both my whole life. It didn't kill me.

And don't give me that "did you do it at the same time" crap. At times, yes.

I am not defending what was done. I haven't the first time. I have questioned the reason why that made a 9 year old dehydrate so quickly. I have asked questions instead of jumping on an emotional bandwagon.

Yes it is horrible that a child died. But the carrying wood and running is not abuse.

I don't know why you cant separate the two.

Everything is not abuse.

Extreme punishment? So a whipping is abuse? Is standing in the corner for 30 minutes abuse if the kid is 7? Is making a child move everything in the garage and clean it out by himself abuse? There are all kinds of punishments that a lot of you would consider extreme. I bet you consider the punishments you extreme.

you can get mad at me all you want, I don't care. I still say the carrying wood and running is not abuse. But what ever caused the extreme dehydration could be. I don't believe it was the 3 hours that is being talked about. I believe it is something more.

No one is saying running and carrying firewood is abuse. Being forced to run and carry firewood for THREE HOURS STRAIGHT is abuse. With out stopping. Without taking a drink of water. Vomiting from overexertion and still making them keep running.
Please tell me how many times you did that? Or made your kids do that?

Ran in band till I puked and had to keep going more than once.

The point I am trying to make is, the dehydration didn't happen in 3 hours. Not the kind of dehydration that causes seizures and death.

I believe there is more than just this one instance that needs to be looked at.

There is MORE to this than this one thing. Not that this is the one and only thing. There is MORE.

Even a 9 year old wont dehydrate to the point of seizure in as little as 3 hours. Some thing else is going on. There is more to the story. more in the home and in the life of this little girl.

I am questioning the circumstances and saying there has to be more than just this 3 hours frame of time. It takes days to become that dehydrated. What else was going on that is not being reported or known about? There is more.

I don't know how much more clear I can be.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Where did you get your medical degree, Lily?

"It takes DAYS to become that dehydrated." BS

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Alright LIly - go prove your point. Go outside and run for 3 hours straight without water. Don't forget the firewood. Let us know how it went when you get back.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lawyerlady wrote:
Alright LIly - go prove your point. Go outside and run for 3 hours straight without water. Don't forget the firewood. Let us know how it went when you get back.

LOLOLOLOL

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I don't need a medical degree. I can read. And I know that level of dehydration takes more than 3 hours.

Use your head people.

I am NOT saying this was ok. I don't agree that it was child abuse in and of itself.

I AM saying there is more to this. You want to see abuse. I am saying there is more than this one 3 hour frame of time. There could very well be abuse in the home. To be that dehydrated, something else had to be going on.

Don't you see that? There is more. Something else was going in for longer than this 3 hours.

Step back and look at the bigger picture. Use your head and not your heart. Think about it. Be logical. Not emotional.

What else had been going on to cause that level of dehydration?

The trained athlete keeps coming up, well, at the end of a marathon they are not having seizures and going unconscious. Why? Because 3 hours is not going to dehydrate someone to that degree.

There are kids younger than this who go days without food or water. Extreme situations like being trapped in a well or something like that. No seizures.

So what else was going on? there was more than this one 3 hour time frame.

Lindley · Guru

Oh my goodness! my DIL ran track and marathons and no way do they run 3 hours straight with no water. You watch the boston marathon and they have water stations all over the place. When my children played sports outside the coach always made them drink water. It is not good to run 3 hours without water and I do not believe you ever ran 3 hours straight with wood on your back outside without water either.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001977/

a link that explains how important it is to stay hydrated.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Ya'll are not getting what I am saying.

There is more to this. something that hasn't been found out or reported. There is more abuse than this.

Dehydration of this level takes more than 3 hours.

Yes. I know she was 9.

There is something more. Ya'll are stuck on this and not seeing something bigger.

Why was she that dehydrated to start with?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
I don't need a medical degree. I can read. And I know that level of dehydration takes more than 3 hours.

Use your head people.

I am NOT saying this was ok. I don't agree that it was child abuse in and of itself.

I AM saying there is more to this. You want to see abuse. I am saying there is more than this one 3 hour frame of time. There could very well be abuse in the home. To be that dehydrated, something else had to be going on.

Don't you see that? There is more. Something else was going in for longer than this 3 hours.

Step back and look at the bigger picture. Use your head and not your heart. Think about it. Be logical. Not emotional.

What else had been going on to cause that level of dehydration?

The trained athlete keeps coming up, well, at the end of a marathon they are not having seizures and going unconscious. Why? Because 3 hours is not going to dehydrate someone to that degree.

There are kids younger than this who go days without food or water. Extreme situations like being trapped in a well or something like that. No seizures.

So what else was going on? there was more than this one 3 hour time frame.

Where do I even start?

1. What ELSE had been going on? She had a medical condition & her family had taken her to a doctor several times.

2. How many marathons have you run?

3. Do the kids trapped in a mine also RUN for THREE HOURS?

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

See my post above yours.

I am tired of saying the same thing over and over.

There is more to this.

She was dehydrated before she started this. Why?

NAOW · Vette's SS

lilyofcourse wrote:
See my post above yours.

I am tired of saying the same thing over and over.

There is more to this.

She was dehydrated before she started this. Why?

Because she was at school all day and kids aren't that great at keeping themselves hydrated.

ETA: I don't think it matters. I would never presume anyone could run for 3 hours without water. It seems absolutely possible to me to become that dehydrated that quickly while running. But maybe the grandma should have thought about that before running her granddaughter to death.

-- Edited by NAOW on Wednesday 19th of November 2014 02:07:15 PM

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

So they forced a sickly nine year old run--while carrying heavy objects--until she started to seizure.
I can't believe anyone is defending this
And FYI, Lily, I get terribly dehydrated in the winter while working. Yes, you can become severely dehydrated very quickly when doing strenuous labor.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

lilyofcourse wrote:
Ya'll are not getting what I am saying.

There is more to this. something that hasn't been found out or reported. There is more abuse than this.

Dehydration of this level takes more than 3 hours.

Yes. I know she was 9.

There is something more. Ya'll are stuck on this and not seeing something bigger.

Why was she that dehydrated to start with?

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. A person can become dehydrated in less than an hour of exercise. Continuing to exercise while dehydrated makes it exponentially worse.

None of your facts are founded in health science.

msrock · Guru

Lily, you are dead wrong. Apparently you have never heard of high school athletes collapsing and dying due to overexertion. It happens. The younger the person, the greater the risk.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Not to mention that if the child was already dehydrated when she began, it was because the idiot adults didn't give her enough to drink.

msrock · Guru

It's important that kids who participate in sports or strenuous activities should drink some extra fluid before the activity begins. They should also drink at regular intervals (about every 20 minutes) during the course of the activity and after it ends.

If the body loses a substantial amount of fluids and salts and they are not quickly replaced; for example: by drinking, the body starts to "dry up" or get dehydrated. Severe dehydration can cause death. The usual causes of dehydration are a lot of diarrhoea and vomiting. Dehydration can also occur if you do not eat or drink much during an illness or if you do not drink enough during or after strenuous exercise.

From a couple of medical sites.

msrock · Guru

She dehydrated so quickly because she was FORCED to run while carrying heavy weight for 3 hours nonstop with no breaks and no fluids. She was 9 years old. It's really that simple. YOU don't get it!

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Apparently Lilly knows more than the Medical Examiner who did the Autopsy. Oh, ok. Wow.

msrock · Guru

Apparently her grandma and stepmom knew what Lily knows. Not a whole lot.

eta: regarding strenuous activity and dehydration.

-- Edited by msrock on Wednesday 19th of November 2014 02:27:06 PM

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

If she indeed did have an underlying medical condition that made her more fragile, then they are even MORE culpable for forcing her to do that.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
If she indeed did have an underlying medical condition that made her more fragile, then they are even MORE culpable for forcing her to do that.

It depends on what the underlying condition was. I am in no way defending these people. The grandma needs to serve time. Three hours is too long for a nine year old to run. I don't think the step mom will get time though. But if the medical condition was something like asthma or a heart condition then yes, it will be worse for them. If the underlying condition was something like chronic allergies or colds then I doubt those will play into it. Again, not defending these women just saying that WHAT the condition is matters in the case.

msrock · Guru

Their only defense as far as I'm concerned would be ignorance.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

It really doesn't matter if they intended for her to die. If what they were doing is deemed as abuse, and she died in the process of them doing what a reasonable, prudent person would NOT do, then this is murder.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I am not defending them. Nor am I saying they didn't intend for her to die. I am saying it does matter what the underlying medical conditions were because they may not have played into her death. However, that still makes them just as responsible.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Lawyerlady wrote:
Not to mention that if the child was already dehydrated when she began, it was because the idiot adults didn't give her enough to drink.

This is what I am saying.

She had been to the doctor several time with an undiagnosed, mystery illness. There was MORE than this one instance. There is more to this. What was the underlying illness? Had she been dehydrated for a long time? What were the reasons she had been to the doctor so much? What sent her to the doctors?

What else was going on in that home life? What else is there to this?

Don't Ya'll get it? This was an end result of something that had been going on for a long time.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Yeah, we get it. The end result is that a child who has long been neglected and abused, finally died. We get it. Why don't you?

msrock · Guru

What you don't get is she would be alive today if the grandmother did not punish her in this manner. The punishment killed her.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

You don't know that.

Not with the combination of an unsolved medical problem and such a level of dehydration. It may have only sped up the process.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

lilyofcourse wrote:
You don't know that.

Not with the combination of an unsolved medical problem and such a level of dehydration. It may have only sped up the process.

Yeah, it sped up her dying process by about 65 yrs. Wow. confuse

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

You don't know that.

She was already dangerously dehydrated if a seizure happened in 3 hours.

And she had an underlying, undiagnosed medical problem.

We don't know she wouldn't have had a seizure at any point that day or the next.

msrock · Guru

What I know is that the punishment the grandmother inflicted could have killed a perfectly healthy child.

Tinydancer · Guru

Come on guys do you really think lily is going to admit she was wrong? I have never seen her say "sorry I was wrong" it's always turns into her saying something else and we really didn't understand...lol