TOTALLY GEEKED!

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Sunday's Thread; Pearl Harbor

Divine Geek · Guru

That attack is what prompted my 17-year-old grandfather to enlist in the Navy. He could tell you exactly where he was and what he was doing when he heard the news on the radio. He went right home to begin convincing his father to sign the papers so he could join.

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Divine Geek wrote:
That attack is what prompted my 17-year-old grandfather to enlist in the Navy. He could tell you exactly where he was and what he was doing when he heard the news on the radio. He went right home to begin convincing his father to sign the papers so he could join.

-- Edited by I know what to do_sometimes on Sunday 7th of December 2014 12:18:51 AM

Truth-or-Consequences · Newbie

This was a dark day in our history.

Interesting coincidence that today is Sunday AND the date today is an anagram of that date (12-07-41 vs. 12-07-14).

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Truth-or-Consequences wrote:
This was a dark day in our history.

Interesting coincidence that today is Sunday AND the date today is an anagram of that date (12-07-41 vs. 12-07-14).

Wow! I didn't even think of that.

Truth-or-Consequences · Newbie

Tinydancer · Guru

Divine Geek wrote:
That attack is what prompted my 17-year-old grandfather to enlist in the Navy. He could tell you exactly where he was and what he was doing when he heard the news on the radio. He went right home to begin convincing his father to sign the papers so he could join.

Thanks to your grandfather and all the others who've made it possible for us to live the lives we do. I can't imagine if those brave soldiers hadn't sacrificed as much as they did.

Truth-or-Consequences · Newbie

Tinydancer wrote:
Divine Geek wrote:
That attack is what prompted my 17-year-old grandfather to enlist in the Navy. He could tell you exactly where he was and what he was doing when he heard the news on the radio. He went right home to begin convincing his father to sign the papers so he could join.
Thanks to your grandfather and all the others who've made it possible for us to live the lives we do. I can't imagine if those brave soldiers hadn't sacrificed as much as they did.

I "Second" that thanks... it's because of those brave souls that we are still Americans.

NAOW · Vette's SS

I put my baby to bed at 8:30. She slept for 20 minutes and has been up ever since. She is still happily playing. I wanted to get more wrapping done, but I kept waiting thinking I would do it when she went to sleep. Guess she has other plans, lol.

Truth-or-Consequences · Newbie

You should know better by now than to make plans that depend on a sleeping baby... They know when you make plans... It's one of their baby-powers.

NAOW · Vette's SS

So. I should plan on her staying awake all night.. then she will go to sleep early?! :)

Truth-or-Consequences · Newbie

LOL... no... Knowing that we are trying to outsmart them is another of their baby-powers. ;)

-- Edited by Truth-or-Consequences on Sunday 7th of December 2014 01:59:14 AM

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

Such a sad historical event. If you visit Hawaii and are on Oahu the Arizona memorial is a must see.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

NAOW wrote:
I put my baby to bed at 8:30. She slept for 20 minutes and has been up ever since. She is still happily playing. I wanted to get more wrapping done, but I kept waiting thinking I would do it when she went to sleep. Guess she has other plans, lol.

She wants to see the presents. You should let her - she can't tell anyone.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

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Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

I would like to see Karl weigh in today. I remember when in Japan, they really tried to downplay Pearl Harbor - they warned us, etc. and we knew they were coming. I'm sure their government had to say all that after we dropped the bombs on them.

It's amazing how things can change. It's a horrible tragedy, and our soldiers were (and are) wonderful.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

So, last night, we hosted Parent's Night Out at the church. Which means, we watch TWENTY children for three hours. I'm proud to say they all lived through it and so did I. The Pastor says that is all that matters.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

You deserve two desserts tonight LL! And a ****tail.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

I need to start getting ready for church. Going an hour earlier to be an outside greeter. Very glad it's not super cold or raining!

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Southern_Belle wrote:
You deserve two desserts tonight LL! And a ****tail.

DH says I can't volunteer us for that again, but I think it went pretty well. I mean, it was 20 kids, you have to expect loud, rambunctious, and some arguing. Part of the problem was that we only expected 14 - that's how many were signed up, and 20 showed up.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

More always come! Who wouldn't want a chance to dump their kids on another adult for a few hours!

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Southern_Belle wrote:
More always come! Who wouldn't want a chance to dump their kids on another adult for a few hours!

Well, I'm going to talk to the others, b/c we need a rule about that. I mean, we FEED them. Luckily, I had enough food, but just BARELY. I actually got enough food for 20, so that means, I had EXACTLY enough. Twenty servings of this, twenty of that, etc.

I did a "C" theme on the food for Christmas, we had chicken nuggets, chips, cheese, cucumbers, Clementines, cupcakes, and cookies.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

Ugh! Swept the front deck around 4pm yesterday. Just opened the front door and it looks like it did yesterday before I swept.

Blankie · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
I would like to see Karl weigh in today. I remember when in Japan, they really tried to downplay Pearl Harbor - they warned us, etc. and we knew they were coming. I'm sure their government had to say all that after we dropped the bombs on them.

It's amazing how things can change. It's a horrible tragedy, and our soldiers were (and are) wonderful.

Pearl Harbor was a terrible tragedy.

But what we did to Japan was far, far worse. Can't even be compared.

We dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 that killed over 129,000 people - civilians. And that damage left chemical effects which lasted years, and reached into their next generations.

It was unspeakable horror what we did. And the USA has that blood on our conscience.

We get so outraged about what is done to us as Americans.

Where is our outrage about what we did to the Japanese people?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

I love you, Blankie.

That is all.

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Blankie wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
I would like to see Karl weigh in today. I remember when in Japan, they really tried to downplay Pearl Harbor - they warned us, etc. and we knew they were coming. I'm sure their government had to say all that after we dropped the bombs on them.

It's amazing how things can change. It's a horrible tragedy, and our soldiers were (and are) wonderful.

Pearl Harbor was a terrible tragedy.
But what we did to Japan was far, far worse. Can't even be compared.
We dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 that killed over 129,000 people - civilians. And that damage left chemical effects which lasted years, and reached into their next generations.
It was unspeakable horror what we did. And the USA has that blood on our conscience.
We get so outraged about what is done to us as Americans.
Where is our outrage about what we did to the Japanese people?

What we did ended the war with Japan. You were dealing with a mindset of warriors who thought suicide bombing was an honorable way to die and who were not even going to surrender after Hiroshima - and the deaths in Hiroshima were LESS than many other bombings that occurred by more conventional methods. Yes, civilians died. Civilians died in Pearl Harbor, civilians were dying in the bombing in London and other European cities every day by the Germans. MILLIONS of civilian Jews died horrible deaths. And the Japanese were ALLIES with the Germans. Civilian count by country - Japan is much lower than many other countries. Remember, we stayed out of the war until Japan brought us in - they started it, we finished it. So, NO, on the anniversary of the day the Japanese attacked us for no reason - I will not be shamed as an American for winning a war.

(when the number of deaths in a country is disputed, a range of war losses is given)

(the sources of the figures are provided in the footnotes)

Country	Total population 1/1/1939	Military deaths	Civilian deaths due to military activity and crimes against humanity	Civilian deaths due to war related famine and disease	Total deaths	Deaths as % of 1939 population
Albania^A	1,073,000	30,000			30,000	2.81
Australia^B	6,998,000	39,700	700		40,400	0.57
Austria (German-controlled)^C	6,650,000	Included with German Army	120,000		120,000	(see table below)
Belgium^D	8,387,000	12,100	75,900		88,000	1.05
Brazil^E	40,289,000	1,000	1,000		2,000	0.02
Bulgaria^F	6,458,000	22,000	3,000		25,000	0.38
Burma (British)^G	16,119,000	22,000		250,000	272,000	1.69
Canada^H	11,267,000	45,400			45,400	0.40
China ^I	517,568,000	3,000,000 to 4,000,000	7,000,000 to 11,000,000	5,000,000	10,000,000 to 20,000,000	(1.93 to 3.86)
Cuba^J	4,235,000		100		100	0.00
Czechoslovakia (in Nov. 1938 borders)^K	10,400,000 [25]	25,000	300,000		325,000	3.15
Denmark^L	3,795,000	2,100	1,100		3,200	0.08
Dutch East Indies^M	69,435,000			3,000,000 to 4,000,000	3,000,000 to 4,000,000	(4.3 to 5.76)
Estonia (within 1939 borders)^N	1,122,000	Included with the Soviet, German, and Finnish Armies	50,000		50,000	4.44
Ethiopia^O	17,700,000	5,000	95,000		100,000	0.6
Finland^P	3,700,000	95,000	2,000		97,000	2.62
France^Q	41,700,000	200,000 including colonies [26]	350,000		550,000	1.35
French Indochina^R	24,600,000			1,000,000 to 2,000,000	1,000,000 to 2,200,000	(4.07 to 8.1)
Germany^S	69,850,000	4,300,000 to 5,500,000	1,100,000	400,000 to 2,400,000	7,000,000 to 9,000,000	(see table below)
Greece^T	7,222,000	20,000 to 35,100	160,000	140,000 to 600,000	320,000 to 807,000	(4.5 to 11.2)
Guam^TA	20,000	1,000 to 2,000			1,000 to 2,000	(5.0 to 10.0)
Hungary^U	9,129,000	300,000	280,000		580,000	6.35
Iceland^V	119,000		200		200	0.17
India (British)^W	378,000,000	87,000		1,500,000 to 2,500,000	1,587,000 to 2,587,000	(0.42 to 0.68)
Iran^X	14,340,000	200			200	0.00
Iraq'^Y	3,698,000	500			500	0.01
Ireland^Z	2,960,000	10,000 Irish volunteers included with UK	200		200	0.00
Italy^AA	44,394,000	301,400 (includes 10,000 African conscripts)	153,200		454,600	1.03
Japan^AB	71,380,000	2,120,000	500,000	500,000	2,620,000 to 3,120,000	(3.67 to 4.37)
Korea (Japanese Colony)^AC	23,400,000		378,000 to 483,000		378,000 to 483,000	(1.6 to 2.06)
Latvia (within 1939 borders)^AD	1,951,000	Included with the Soviet and German Armies	190,000	40,000	230,000	11.78
Lithuania (within 1939 borders)^AE	2,442,000	Included with the Soviet and German Armies	275,000	75,000	350,000	14.33
Luxembourg^AF	295,000		2,000		2,000	0.68
Malaya (British)^AG	4,391,000		100,000		100,000	2.28
Malta (British)^AH	269,000		1,500		1,500	0.56
Mexico^AI	19,320,000		100		100	0.00
Mongolia^AJ	819,000	300			300	0.04
Nauru (Australian)^AK	3,400		500		500	14.7
Nepal ^BG	6,000,000	Included with British Indian Army
Netherlands^AL	8,729,000	17,000	198,000	86,000	301,000	3.45
Newfoundland (British)^AM	300,000	included with the U.K.	100		100	0.03
New Zealand^AN	1,629,000	11,900			11,900	0.73
Norway^AO	2,945,000	3,000	6,500		9,500	0.32
Papua and New Guinea (Australian)^AP	1,292,000		15,000		15,000	1.17
Philippines (U.S. Territory)^AQ	16,000,000	57,000	100,000	400,000 to 900,000	557,000 to 1,057,000	(3.48 to 6.6)
Poland (within 1939 borders)^AR	34,849,000	240,000	4,880,000 to 5,080,000	500,000	5,620,000 to 5,820,000	(16.1 to 16.7)
Portuguese Timor^AS	500,000		40,000 to 70,000		40,000 to 70,000	(8.00 to 14.00)
Romania (within 1939 borders)^AT	19,934,000	300,000	500,000		800,000	4.01
Ruanda-Urundi (Belgian)^AU	4,200,000			0 to 300,000	0 to 300,000	(0.00 to 7.1)
Singapore (British)^AV	728,000		50,000		50,000	6.87
South Africa^AW	10,160,000	11,900			11,900	0.12
South Pacific Mandate (Japanese)^AX	1,900,000		57,000		57,000	3.00
Soviet Union (within 1946–91 borders) ^AY	168,524,000	8,700,000 to 13,850,000	7,000,000 to 12,000,000	6,000,000	21,800,000 to 28,000,000	(see table below)
Spain^AZ	25,637,000	Included with the German Army
Sweden^BA	6,341,000		600		600	0.01
Switzerland^BB	4,210,000		100		100	0.00
Thailand^BC	15,023,000	5,600	2,000		7,600	0.04
Turkey^BD	17,370,000	200			200	0.00
United Kingdom^BE	47,760,000	383,800 including Overseas Territories^[11]	67,100		450,900	0.94
United States^BF	131,028,000	407,000 (including 1,900 members of the U.S. Coast Guard)	12,000 (including 9,500 members of the U.S. Merchant Marine and 64 of the Civil Air Patrol.)		420,000	0.32
Yugoslavia^BG	15,400,000	300,000 to 446,000	581,000 to 1,400,000		1,027,000 to 1,700,000	(6.7 to 11.00)
Approx. Totals	2,000,000,000	22,000,000 to 30,000,000	19,000,000 to 30,000,000	19,000,000 25,000,000	60,000,000 to 85,000,000	(3.17 to 4.00)

ed11563 · Guru

Blankie wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
I would like to see Karl weigh in today. I remember when in Japan, they really tried to downplay Pearl Harbor - they warned us, etc. and we knew they were coming. I'm sure their government had to say all that after we dropped the bombs on them.

It's amazing how things can change. It's a horrible tragedy, and our soldiers were (and are) wonderful.

Pearl Harbor was a terrible tragedy.
But what we did to Japan was far, far worse. Can't even be compared.
We dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 that killed over 129,000 people - civilians. And that damage left chemical effects which lasted years, and reached into their next generations.
It was unspeakable horror what we did. And the USA has that blood on our conscience.
We get so outraged about what is done to us as Americans.
Where is our outrage about what we did to the Japanese people?

My understanding is that the Japanese people were prepared to fight to the death ... of every man, woman and child.

After the first bomb, their government was asked to surrender, and given an opportunity to surrender. They didn't.

After the second, it was clear that we could wipe them from the face of the Earth, without having a single soldier set foot there, without putting any Americans in the line of fire.

Had we not dropped the Bomb, had Japan not surrendered, the death toll would have been many times higher.

Unfortunately, the government in power in IRAN fails to see that Israel could wipe THEM off the face of the Earth in 30 minutes or less. IRAN is working diligently to build their own Bomb, so they can wipe ISRAEL off the face of the Earth, along with OUR East Coast cities.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

What is the harm in seeing the whole picture?

flan

ed11563 · Guru

flan327 wrote:
What is the harm in seeing the whole picture?

flan

?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
What is the harm in seeing the whole picture?

flan

Excellent question. Try considering all the people that would have died had we NOT dropped the bomb. Think of how much longer the war would have gone on. The Japanese were NOT being deterred, not even by the first bomb. You can sit back and feel sorry for the civilians all you want, but they are certainly not the only civilians that died. Japan chose to ally itself with Germany - who were the most horrible offenders of human rights violations and civilian deaths ever. They didn't have to do that. We were not part of the war, and they chose to attack us anyway. They didn't have to do that, either. Choices have consequences.

Loss of civilian life is always sad, but our goal was to end the war, and we did.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

This reminds me of threads where a parent forgets a child in a hot car in the summer, and the child dies. Some posters are full of righteous indignation for anyone who has sympathy for the parent (as well as the child).

So I can have sympathy for Japanese civilians who suffered & died because of their government's actions.

flan

Blankie · Guru

No matter what anyone says to justify our (US) actions in dropping the bombs, we can never ever change the fact that we were the first to unleash the horror of nuclear war on the world.

What a horrible example to set.

And what a curse on the world.

We can never take that back.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
This reminds me of threads where a parent forgets a child in a hot car in the summer, and the child dies. Some posters are full of righteous indignation for anyone who has sympathy for the parent (as well as the child).

So I can have sympathy for Japanese civilians who suffered & died because of their government's actions.

flan

No one has said you can't.

But that it not the same thing and trying to shame America over it.

And unleashing nuclear power has kept governments from attacking us for over 70 years now.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Blankie wrote:
No matter what anyone says to justify our (US) actions in dropping the bombs, we can never ever change the fact that we were the first to unleash the horror of nuclear war on the world.
What a horrible example to set.
And what a curse on the world.
We can never take that back.

On the contrary - it has prevented WWIII for a very long time now.

ed11563 · Guru

Blankie wrote:
No matter what anyone says to justify our (US) actions in dropping the bombs, we can never ever change the fact that we were the first to unleash the horror of nuclear war on the world.
What a horrible example to set.
And what a curse on the world.
We can never take that back.

The Nazis almost beat us to it. If they'd been a month faster, you'd be speaking German, and I'd be ... My parents in Ohio would have been exterminated.

If the decision was yours, and you firmly believed you HAD TO DO THIS to protect your children,

how far would you go to protect your children?

If some madman was shooting at your house constantly, and you had an advanced weapon (like a grenade launcher or a bazooka) that would blow up his house with him and his family inside,

would you use it? Remember, the alternative is that your whole family dies. (That's what WAR is.)

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

And while you are having all that sympathy for the Japanese civilians, you might want to consider the upwards of TEN MILLION Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese during the war. And some of those were HORRIBLE deaths, chemical warfare, experiments, etc. They were as bad as the Nazis. We were NOT going to let that happen to us.

The Japanese also committed a war crime in attacking us, a neutral country.

We did not commit any war crimes, as horrible as you may think the bomb to be.

Bonny22Pye · Guru

My son is named after his grandfather who fought at Pearl Harbor.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Good morning.

And I am another who is proud of our soldiers and thankful for them.

Those bombs put us at the top of the food chain for a very, very long time. Yes, there were civilians to die. That is sad.

However.

It was a necessary action.

I think a couple of well placed A-bombs could make a huge difference in the middle east today. And I would support that.

America was once a force to be reckoned with. But thanks to mamby pamby attitudes of people and our government today, we are basically the joke now.

American pride once meant something.

Well. Ya'll have a great day.

chef · Guru

God Bless soldiers and their families.

just Czech · Give Me Grand's!

DH's father is a member of the Greatest Generation. He fought in the Pacific theater for 3 1/2 years. Of the 156 men he went to war with, he was one of 8 to survive and 1 of three who were never wounded. He fought in Burma and on Tinian, plus several other island hopping expeditions.
We just recently found his war pictures. He was a true hero.
Our country did what it had to do to end the war as quickly as possible, therefore saving hundred of thousands of lives, American and Japanese.
IMHO, we are now a weak nation. Thanks to the mamby-pambies in charge.
Oh, and good morning to all.

just Czech · Give Me Grand's!

Love your avatar, chef!

voiceofreason · Guru

Mr.VoR called me from Chicago this morning. Poor guy hasn't been in cold weather for 20+ years. He has sniffles. Cute!

My dad has been calling me every morning so I "don't get lonely and decide to go talk to some unsuspecting check out lady at Walgreens" He cracks me up.

just Czech · Give Me Grand's!

voiceofreason wrote:
Mr.VoR called me from Chicago this morning. Poor guy hasn't been in cold weather for 20+ years. He has sniffles. Cute!

My dad has been calling me every morning so I "don't get lonely and decide to go talk to some unsuspecting check out lady at Walgreens" He cracks me up.

Apparently, he knows you.

voiceofreason · Guru

just Czech wrote:
voiceofreason wrote:
Mr.VoR called me from Chicago this morning. Poor guy hasn't been in cold weather for 20+ years. He has sniffles. Cute!

My dad has been calling me every morning so I "don't get lonely and decide to go talk to some unsuspecting check out lady at Walgreens" He cracks me up.
Apparently, he knows you.

Right? I told him I was gonna impose my humor and brilliance on the welcoming folks on TG. He sends his condolences.

just Czech · Give Me Grand's!

voiceofreason wrote:
just Czech wrote:
voiceofreason wrote:
Mr.VoR called me from Chicago this morning. Poor guy hasn't been in cold weather for 20+ years. He has sniffles. Cute!

My dad has been calling me every morning so I "don't get lonely and decide to go talk to some unsuspecting check out lady at Walgreens" He cracks me up.
Apparently, he knows you.
Right? I told him I was gonna impose my humor and brilliance on the welcoming folks on TG. He sends his condolences.

Wise man indeed.

We will TAKE IT! The humor and brilliance of course.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Blankie wrote:
No matter what anyone says to justify our (US) actions in dropping the bombs, we can never ever change the fact that we were the first to unleash the horror of nuclear war on the world.
What a horrible example to set.
And what a curse on the world.
We can never take that back.

Blankie, I understand what you're saying. I agree with you.

Maybe my compassion outweighs my survival instinct. I don't know.

What I do know is that I'm sorry your beliefs are not respected here.

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
Blankie wrote:
No matter what anyone says to justify our (US) actions in dropping the bombs, we can never ever change the fact that we were the first to unleash the horror of nuclear war on the world.
What a horrible example to set.
And what a curse on the world.
We can never take that back.
Blankie, I understand what you're saying. I agree with you.
Maybe my compassion outweighs my survival instinct. I don't know.
What I do know is that I'm sorry your beliefs are not respected here.
flan

Disrespect? How about disrespecting our country on Pearl Harbor Day by arguing about sympathy for the Japanese, who tortured and killed MILLIONS of innocent civilians and aligned themselves with the Nazis?

-- Edited by Lawyerlady on Sunday 7th of December 2014 12:53:35 PM

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I just can not understand the mentality.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

You are, as always, welcome to your opinion.

flan

voiceofreason · Guru

Oh ffs. Commence the rightous indignation. How dare you blah blah blah. I'm right blah blah blah. You aren't a real patriot blah blah blah.

Blankie, you're a very good soul. Very good. I don't disagree with you.

My grandfather never got over his role in killing the civilians. That stayed with him his entire life. And he was a good man, a patriot. He felt a true regret that his duty to his country meant he was responsible for the death of so many innocent people. We spoke of it as I held his hand in the hospital while he was dying. I asked him what his greatest regret was and without delay, he said being involed in pearl harbor. It simply horrified him.