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Post Info TOPIC: Childhood Guilt, Adult Depression?


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Childhood Guilt, Adult Depression?
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Childhood Guilt, Adult Depression?

New research shows differences in the brains of kids who show excessive guilty behavior, which may put them at risk for a host of mood disorders later in life.
 

Nicholas Thomas remembers a coat rack. "We were at a family gathering," Thomas said. "I think it was Christmas or something, and we were playing hide-and-go-seek. I knocked over a coat rack and I felt like I had done something terribly wrong." That was when he was 12. Thomas, who was diagnosed with depression at 22 years old, said that he finds himself continually reminding himself of everything that he thought he'd done wrong over the years. "I'd hear a little voice in my head berating me," Thomas said.

Some scientists now believe that extreme feelings of guilt in children, such as the ones Thomas felt, can be a strong warning sign for mental disorders such as depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), and bipolar disorder later on in life. Research has long linked excessive feelings of guilt to mental disorders in adults—the DSM-V lists feelings of excessive guilt as a symptom for depression. But researchers at Washington University in St. Louis have found that excessive guilt in children might be linked to a part of the brain that is connected to controls for several different mental disorders.

As a part of a 12-year study, the researchers looked at a part of the brain called the anterior insula, which regulates perception, self-awareness, and emotion. Smaller anterior insulas have been linked to anxiety disorders, depression, schizophrenia, and other mood disorders.

"I'd hear a little voice in my head berating me."

The researchers took brain scans of 145 school-aged children. They also asked the caregivers to identify whether their kids had exhibited any symptoms of excessive guilt, such as apologizing constantly for minor misbehavior or feeling guilty about things that had happened a long time ago. The researchers found that feelings of extreme guilt correlated highly with smaller anterior insulas.

"In the kids who had high levels of guilt, even the kids who weren't necessarily depressed, they had smaller anterior insula volume, and that smaller anterior insula volume is predictive of later occurrence of depression," said Joan Luby, one of the study authors. "This research suggests that early childhood experiences impact the way the brain develops."

Luby says that findings, which were published in JAMA Psychiatry in November, are significant because it is one of the first studies that links feelings of excessive guilt in children to physical differences in the brain. "There have been a lot of behavioral studies done with children," Luby said. "In terms of brain changes in children ... there's very little data on that."

Michelle New, a psychologist and associate professor at the George Washington University Medical School in Washington, D.C., said that this research could help pinpoint specific brain anatomy to identify children who are at high risk for later-life mental disorders. "This research is really new and exciting because you can look at changes in the brain, and it shows that early intervention is really important. Dismissing early symptomatology is dangerous," she said. New explained that mental disorders are often latent between the ages of four and 12, and so being able to identify children at high risk for mood disorders helps parents and mental-health professionals engage in preventative measures earlier in life.

"Early intervention is really important. Dismissing early symptoms is dangerous."

In addition, this research provides neurological evidence for what researchers have been starting to suspect: Guilt in early childhood has negative effects on children and may cause later life depression and anxiety. In a study published in 2013 by scientists at the University of Jyväskylä, Finland, researchers found that parenting tactics that created feelings of guilt in children caused children to feel an increase in distress and anger for many days afterward. In another study published in 2003, scientists found that children whose parents used guilt-inducing tactics were far more likely to internalize their problems. Depression and anxiety are classic examples of internalizing disorders.

The question is whether guilt causes later life mental disorders or if a biological predisposition to mental disorders causes early symptoms of excessive guilt. But New says that doesn't matter in the clinical setting.

"It's not like that symptom is going to go away," she said. "What's important is that we practice early intervention and prevention."

The researchers at Washington University are also looking at effective ways to help children manage guilt, in case that could mitigate later life mental disorders. Luby says that they are in the early stages of looking at how psychotherapy affects child behavior and how it affects brain function. "We are still in the first year, but my clinical impression is that these kids are getting a lot better," Luby said.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/childhood-guilt-adult-depression/384176/



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Sooo if you don't feel guilt then you are a sociopath/psychopath but if you do then you are destined for depression?

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I don't think he's saying that. Just that it might indicate future problems. Guilt is a very powerful emotion and I can see where too much of it would be depressing while to little of it would be something a sociopath/psychopath would need to do the things they do.

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Itty bitty's Grammy

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Interesting...

For me, being raised Catholic = GUILT.

I remember coming home from school one day, very excited about something that I just HAD to tell my mother. I knocked on the door, then knocked again.

When she finally opened it, she said that she had fallen down the stairs earlier that day & was moving slowly.

Darn right I felt guilty for not magically knowing that...

flan

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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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flan327 wrote:

Interesting...

For me, being raised Catholic = GUILT.

I remember coming home from school one day, very excited about something that I just HAD to tell my mother. I knocked on the door, then knocked again.

When she finally opened it, she said that she had fallen down the stairs earlier that day & was moving slowly.

Darn right I felt guilty for not magically knowing that...

flan


 I guess I don't understand how this is the result of being Catholic. 



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Itty bitty's Grammy

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Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:

Interesting...

For me, being raised Catholic = GUILT.

I remember coming home from school one day, very excited about something that I just HAD to tell my mother. I knocked on the door, then knocked again.

When she finally opened it, she said that she had fallen down the stairs earlier that day & was moving slowly.

Darn right I felt guilty for not magically knowing that...

flan


 I guess I don't understand how this is the result of being Catholic. 


 Obviously it starts with the concept of Original Sin.

Guilt in instilled at a young age. You are never good enough, especially if you are female.

flan



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I think a lot of people understand what flan is talking about. My BFF was raised with a sternly Catholic mother, whom for everything she did was wrong and worthy of Hellfire. She left home as soon as she could, put herself through college and then married a man 17 yrs older who was divorced with kids. For her mom, that was simply unforgivable. And, even though it is 20+yrs later, her mom still likes to carry some sort of grudge. Now, that doesn't mean all Catholics are like that, they aren't. I have met many warm, loving Catholics. But, it seems that Catholicism can bring out the Pharisee.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I think a lot of people understand what flan is talking about. My BFF was raised with a sternly Catholic mother, whom for everything she did was wrong and worthy of Hellfire. She left home as soon as she could, put herself through college and then married a man 17 yrs older who was divorced with kids. For her mom, that was simply unforgivable. And, even though it is 20+yrs later, her mom still likes to carry some sort of grudge. Now, that doesn't mean all Catholics are like that, they aren't. I have met many warm, loving Catholics. But, it seems that Catholicism can bring out the Pharisee.


 And, looking back, my experience was more intense because I attended a Catholic school. I honestly believe some of those nuns hated children.

flan



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The Catholic Church did seem to take a turn toward legalism. And, I agree, I have seen that as well, with my BFF and DH and others that I know who have left the Catholic church and are now evangelical Christians. However, the current Catholic church seems much more relaxed.

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Itty bitty's Grammy

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

The Catholic Church did seem to take a turn toward legalism. And, I agree, I have seen that as well, with my BFF and DH and others that I know who have left the Catholic church and are now evangelical Christians. However, the current Catholic church seems much more relaxed.


 Yes, they have made lots of changes, but I grew up during a different time.

flan



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There are a lot of things about the Catholic church I admire. I love how reverent it is and the rituals and how they celebrate the Holiness of God versus the casual, relaxed, jean and sneakers Protestant churches in gyms and warehouses. I like the beauty of the Catholic ceremonies and find them very moving.

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When I think of Catholic school I think of that scene in the Blues Brothers where the nun was swatting them back and forth with a ruler. My father said that was true to form when he attended Catholic school, which is why he put us in public. My mother wanted me to send the boys to Catholic school but my father agreed that it would not be a good decision. I do think they are more relaxed now, but still. They go to RE and Mass every Sunday. We say a prayer before bed, and they have learned the Bible. That's enough.

As for guilt, my husband was raised with it, and his father still tries to use it on him. I make extra efforts to remind him that he is a good son and has done nothing to deserve the poor treatment. He doesn't seem depressed, but I still worry, usually when his father tries to contact him. Which thankfully is not that often anymore.

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Itty bitty's Grammy

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I had the same nun for 3rd and 4th grade. When one kid misbehaved, she punished ALL of us.

One of her favorite lines: "I don't care who you are or who you think you are."

Frankly, I thought I was a shy child...

flan

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This article interests me a great deal because one of my children always feels unnaturally guilty. She can't forgive herself for tiny misdeeds, she can't even lie without her stomach feeling very sick.
She now has anxiety and depression disorders.
This guilt and shame was not something we raised her with.
As a matter of fact she hardly ever got into trouble with us because whatever she had done I could already see she was being too hard on herself because of it.
So we mainly soothed her and let her know that these minor infractions were very normal of all kids.
She is in her twenties and is still this way.



-- Edited by rose on Thursday 8th of January 2015 09:21:01 AM

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Guilt and shame are not bad things of themselves. Do we really want to raise a generation of people who never feel guilty or shame? Guilt and shame are great motivators that help you find your way in life and in doing the right things. There is nothing inherently wrong with those emotions. And, people that don't feel that are scary. But, like anything in life , there must be Balance. Our lives blow up when we get out of balance one way or the other. So, yes, feeling guilt forever and shame forever is not healthy. At most, those should be temporary emotions that you feel greatly, then you course correct and then you have to leave those things behind you. Some people feel it deeply all of their lives and it inhibits them from enjoying life and being who they could really be.

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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

There are a lot of things about the Catholic church I admire. I love how reverent it is and the rituals and how they celebrate the Holiness of God versus the casual, relaxed, jean and sneakers Protestant churches in gyms and warehouses. I like the beauty of the Catholic ceremonies and find them very moving.


 Yes.  I think it is beautiful. 



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Lawyerlady wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

There are a lot of things about the Catholic church I admire. I love how reverent it is and the rituals and how they celebrate the Holiness of God versus the casual, relaxed, jean and sneakers Protestant churches in gyms and warehouses. I like the beauty of the Catholic ceremonies and find them very moving.


 Yes.  I think it is beautiful. 


I agree, and I was brought up Catholic.  My church, IMHO, is still the most beautiful church I've ever been in.  It's not gaudy, but simple, with the exception of the Crucifix.  I still tremble any time I get the chance to visit. (I haven't attended that church for many many years, but still stop there if I am out that way...)

 



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rose wrote:

This article interests me a great deal because one of my children always feels unnaturally guilty. She can't forgive herself for tiny misdeeds, she can't even lie without her stomach feeling very sick.
She now has anxiety and depression disorders.
This guilt and shame was not something we raised her with.
As a matter of fact she hardly ever got into trouble with us because whatever she had done I could already see she was being too hard on herself because of it.
So we mainly soothed her and let her know that these minor infractions were very normal of all kids.
She is in her twenties and is still this way.



-- Edited by rose on Thursday 8th of January 2015 09:21:01 AM


 My DDis the same way. When she was 5, we found her on her knees prayinf over and over asking God to forgive her for some minor offenses. In talking to her, she had been like that for over an hour. (Catholic school, flan! We took her out that year!) 

She ended up having depression and panic attacks in high school and college. Now she is almost 24 and lives in NYC (which actually helped decrease her panic attacks). The key for us was helping DD learn coping skills, and then letting go and allowing her to use those skills on her own. It's hard.

 

feel free to pm me if you want to talk more about it. 



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My DD is much more conscious of guilt as well. I think girls tend to be in general. One time, she spilled something in the kitchen and just ran out of the room crying. I have never scolded her for anything like that. And she seemed to really take those kinds of things to heart and I would have to go talk to her and tell her that there is nothing "wrong" with spilling something or making a mess or dropping a plate or whatever. She would feel guilty about a lot of things. And, I have had to work with her and really teach her to be a strong, resilient young lady and have confidence in herself.

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Itty bitty's Grammy

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

My DD is much more conscious of guilt as well. I think girls tend to be in general. One time, she spilled something in the kitchen and just ran out of the room crying. I have never scolded her for anything like that. And she seemed to really take those kinds of things to heart and I would have to go talk to her and tell her that there is nothing "wrong" with spilling something or making a mess or dropping a plate or whatever. She would feel guilty about a lot of things. And, I have had to work with her and really teach her to be a strong, resilient young lady and have confidence in herself.


 You're a GREAT mom.

flan



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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

My DD is much more conscious of guilt as well. I think girls tend to be in general. One time, she spilled something in the kitchen and just ran out of the room crying. I have never scolded her for anything like that. And she seemed to really take those kinds of things to heart and I would have to go talk to her and tell her that there is nothing "wrong" with spilling something or making a mess or dropping a plate or whatever. She would feel guilty about a lot of things. And, I have had to work with her and really teach her to be a strong, resilient young lady and have confidence in herself.


 My DD burst out sobbing one day, and it was because she had lied to me earlier in the day.  Apparently the guilt over the lie ate at her for hours until she couldn't stand it anymore. 



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