Are you flipping kidding me? Addicts make CHOICES that lead to what they become. Not every kid chooses to do drugs, and those that try drinking and pot - MOST don't then hit the the heroin and cocaine.

This article is such clap-trap, it's ridiculous. Kids are taught from elementary school that drugs are bad, and yet this article wants us to make excuses for and have compassion for the people that choose drugs over their families and responsibilities? No flippin' way. I'll save my sympathy for their family.

Lexxy wrote:

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She made some bad choices yes but that doesn't mean she isn't deserving of sympathy. I've seen it happen to people I went to school with. Good kids who made the bad decision to try drugs one night & were swept up in the current. I thought it was a very good article.

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 She writes very well.

And, yes, I can have sympathy for BOTH the addict and her family.

flan

I hope one day we will discover what makes an addict an addict, Lily.

flan

Well. I do agree that sympathy is a nice thing. But I also think that once they realize they need help and don't do something to get it, then it is all on them and they have made another choice.

I also understand when those around them reach their breaking point and can no longer be in situation. We can only do so much for another. Eventually they have to do for themselves.

Does that mean we cant feel sorry for them? No. That we cant pray for them and even worry about them? No.

We can even give them a meal or something like that. But at some point, everyone has to take responsibility for themselves.

I dont know O4.

I smoked pot and hash like a fiend in my teen years. Never got addicted to any of it. Actually I developed headaches after a while. Got to the point that the smell alone would give me a headache.

But I know some who, once they started, just couldn't quit. Would steal and cheat and lie to get drugs.

Like I said, it is like a switch gets flipped in some people's brain.

Yes. They made the choice to smoke that first time. And the second time. And the third time.

But if one can smoke it up and not get hooked and another does, why? what flips that switch?

I know plenty of recovering alcoholics and addicts, and have sat through hundreds of 12-step meetings.

Janelle's little piece here is not something that is going to help somebody get sober and take responsibility.

Sounds like perhaps she has not yet taken steps 4 through 9 of the 12 steps. She needs to.

I sincerely hope people don't follow her. They would be much better off reading the Big Book.

It is not pure accident that addicts find their way into treatment or 12-step programs. There is some volition on their part. They have to choose to.

lilyofcourse wrote:

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I dont know O4.

I smoked pot and hash like a fiend in my teen years. Never got addicted to any of it. Actually I developed headaches after a while. Got to the point that the smell alone would give me a headache.

But I know some who, once they started, just couldn't quit. Would steal and cheat and lie to get drugs.

Like I said, it is like a switch gets flipped in some people's brain.

Yes. They made the choice to smoke that first time. And the second time. And the third time.

But if one can smoke it up and not get hooked and another does, why? what flips that switch?

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 The person.

flan327 wrote:

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Lawyerlady wrote:

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lilyofcourse wrote:

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I dont know O4.

I smoked pot and hash like a fiend in my teen years. Never got addicted to any of it. Actually I developed headaches after a while. Got to the point that the smell alone would give me a headache.

But I know some who, once they started, just couldn't quit. Would steal and cheat and lie to get drugs.

Like I said, it is like a switch gets flipped in some people's brain.

Yes. They made the choice to smoke that first time. And the second time. And the third time.

But if one can smoke it up and not get hooked and another does, why? what flips that switch?

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 The person.

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Are you a doctor? 

Have you studied brain scans of addicts vs. recreational users?

WHY are you so quick to pass judgment?

flan

p.s. Yes, I know your mother was an alcoholic.

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 It's a choice.  Each time you CHOOSE to do a drug AGAIN, it is a choice.  The person who does not get addicted is the one who chose to stop. 

This is why I'm against any drug being legal, including marijuana.  Don't smoke it - you won't get addicted.  Don't do the drug, you won't get addicted.

The ONLY people I have sympathy for are those who truly got addicted to pain pills and such due to accidents and medical conditions.  If a person got addicted because they were stupid enough to think, "Oh, I can do heroin and not get addicted" - then no, I do not have sympathy for them.  Don't do it in the first place - the fact that someone else who tried it didn't get addicted does not excuse your own actions.

Yeah, MOST people "experiment" when they are young--especially with alcohol, but occasionally with other things, too.

However, at some point, MOST people grow the fvck up, realize that it's not all just about them, and learn to control their intake--or not intake, at all.

Addicts, at their core, are SELFISH. Nothing and no one matters to them in the least. At some point, they'll either decide to get help, or they'll die bitter and alone. I've known a number of them--and that is a trait they ALL have in spades.

flan327 wrote:

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huskerbb wrote:

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Yeah, MOST people "experiment" when they are young--especially with alcohol, but occasionally with other things, too.

However, at some point, MOST people grow the fvck up, realize that it's not all just about them, and learn to control their intake--or not intake, at all.

Addicts, at their core, are SELFISH. Nothing and no one matters to them in the least. At some point, they'll either decide to get help, or they'll die bitter and alone. I've known a number of them--and that is a trait they ALL have in spades.

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 So, a "number" of addicts...what 10? 15?

Sorry, it doesn't make you an expert.

flan

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Probably in that area, maybe a few more.  Show me one that isn't selfish and MAYBE you'll have a point.  You can't do so.  They don't exist.   

voiceofreason wrote:

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They do exist. My dear friend would give you the shirt off his back. He saved my ass more than once. He was a heroin addict for years but he still treated his friends and family with such love. He died recently and the world lost a really good person. I'm almot positiv that selfish wouldn't show up on the top 10 words to describe him.

Then again, in my opinion there are far worse character flaws than being selfish.

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Did they try to get him off heroin?  I'm betting some of them did.

 

If he truly loved them--he would have done it.  

huskerbb wrote:

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voiceofreason wrote:

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They do exist. My dear friend would give you the shirt off his back. He saved my ass more than once. He was a heroin addict for years but he still treated his friends and family with such love. He died recently and the world lost a really good person. I'm almot positiv that selfish wouldn't show up on the top 10 words to describe him.

Then again, in my opinion there are far worse character flaws than being selfish.

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Did they try to get him off heroin?  I'm betting some of them did.

 

If he truly loved them--he would have done it.  

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 Yeah, because it's JUST that simple...

You have no idea of the pain some addicts are in.

flan

huskerbb wrote:

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flan327 wrote:

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huskerbb wrote:

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voiceofreason wrote:

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They do exist. My dear friend would give you the shirt off his back. He saved my ass more than once. He was a heroin addict for years but he still treated his friends and family with such love. He died recently and the world lost a really good person. I'm almot positiv that selfish wouldn't show up on the top 10 words to describe him.

Then again, in my opinion there are far worse character flaws than being selfish.

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Did they try to get him off heroin?  I'm betting some of them did.

 

If he truly loved them--he would have done it.  

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 Yeah, because it's JUST that simple...

You have no idea of the pain some addicts are in.

flan

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I don't care.  They are selfish and putting their needs above all else.  If they are in pain, they deserve it and then some for all the pain they've caused everyone else in their life.   

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 The pain is what drives them to addiction, not the end result.

(Why oh why do I even bother?)

flan

If and when an addict decides to get help and deal with their issues--I'll be the most sympathetic son of a b!tch you'll ever run across.

However, I can't make them do so any more than anyone else can--and until they get to that point, all the "sympathy" in the world doesn't amount to a mouse pissing in an ocean.

They have to make that choice.

lilyofcourse wrote:

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I can see how it happens with those who take pain meds for things like, well, like what I have.

You get to the point where doctors just throw pain meds at you instead of trying to help and sometimes there is nothing else that can be done.

And there are times, when it gets really bad, you just want it to stop.

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Oh, I can see how it happens to anyone.  Alcohol can feel good, at least temporarily.  I like booze, myself.  Drugs can feel good.

 

The question is when do you stop? How much do you do? And, most importantly, how is it affecting the rest of your life?

 

If you aren't paying the light bill because you need to buy scotch--sorry, but that is the height of selfishness.   

lilyofcourse wrote:

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I understand what you are saying.

And I agree, to an extent.

I do think there is a misfire or chemical reaction or some other something that alters in a person's brain that triggers the addict in them.

Not making an excuse for anything or anyone. But I do wonder what that is and how it works.

And can it be "undone" for lack of a better word.

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But whether or not something is "wrong" in their brain is rather irrelevant.  The solution is still the same one way, or another--unless they can find some magic pill that allows people to do blow and never get addicted.  

I am talking the science of addiction. Not the behavior.

Yes behavior is what leads to addiction.

But the science behind it, those like me who smoked pot and hash for years not becoming addicted vs. those who only do it a time or two and cant put it down.

There was some talk back in the day about alcohol and dependency and heredity. Is it something genetic? Could it be?

Anyway.

Don't do it in the first place is the best advice anyone could ever heed in their life.

Oh - for what it's worth, she was adopted. Her birth mother was a junkie who delivered her high. She was removed by the state and left the hospital in her foster mother's arms.

-- Edited by Mellow Momma on Friday 23rd of January 2015 10:23:27 PM

huskerbb wrote:

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voiceofreason wrote:

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They do exist. My dear friend would give you the shirt off his back. He saved my ass more than once. He was a heroin addict for years but he still treated his friends and family with such love. He died recently and the world lost a really good person. I'm almot positiv that selfish wouldn't show up on the top 10 words to describe him.

Then again, in my opinion there are far worse character flaws than being selfish.

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Did they try to get him off heroin?  I'm betting some of them did.

 

If he truly loved them--he would have done it.  

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 Ohhhh...so my cousin OD'd because she didn't love us enough. Now I get it. <head/desk>

All those family therapy sessions...I wisn the therapist had just told her to love us more. 

Mellow Momma wrote:

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huskerbb wrote:

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voiceofreason wrote:

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They do exist. My dear friend would give you the shirt off his back. He saved my ass more than once. He was a heroin addict for years but he still treated his friends and family with such love. He died recently and the world lost a really good person. I'm almot positiv that selfish wouldn't show up on the top 10 words to describe him.

Then again, in my opinion there are far worse character flaws than being selfish.

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Did they try to get him off heroin?  I'm betting some of them did.

 

If he truly loved them--he would have done it.  

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 Ohhhh...so my cousin OD'd because she didn't love us enough. Now I get it. <head/desk>

All those family therapy sessions...I wisn the therapist had just told her to love us more. 

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????  No, she OD'd because she was selfish and took too many drugs and died.  Don't know where you got that other irrelevant nonsense.  

-- Edited by huskerbb on Saturday 24th of January 2015 01:33:33 AM

It isn't that simple. It just isn't.

She was born addicted to drugs. She never had the opportunity to just "not take the first hit". She took her first hit when she was in utero. This means that before she was even born, her brain was hard wired to crave the drug. Her brain was re-structured to make the drug more important than anything else. The brain scans of addicts show physical differences from the brain scans of non addicts. "Just say no" was never an option for my cousin.

It isn't always about the choices you make. Sometimes the choices are made for you.

Blankie wrote:

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IMO that is the saddest situation - babies who are born addicted.

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 Yes it is. She never had a chance to NOT want the drug. She never had an opportunity to "just say no". And by lumling all addicts in together and saying they should just NOT choose to take the first hit - it over simplifies a very very complicated problem. Not all addicts are alike. To say they all have the same behaviors is ridiculous. They have similarities for sure. They will do anything to feed their habit. But I also know that my cousin worked just as hard to quit. 

 

When she she gave her testimony in church, I went to support her. She said that when she took her first hit of heroin, it was the first time in her life that she felt normal physically and mentally. She finally felt ok. Previous to that she felt physically like she was missing a limb, and mentally like no one could understand her. She was emotionally unstable and she didn't realize why. It was the addiction from when she was a baby. Her body was craving the drug. And once she got it, she finally felt ok. That is a tough feeling to tell someone they have to quit and never feel again.

 

They only time she felt peace is when she was using. But knowing that, she still went to rehab and struggled to get clean. She wanted to be clean more than anything in the world. But her body was telling her that the drug made her whole. it was like oxygen for her. So let me tell the rest of you "just don't breathe, you are an oxygen addict". Just don't do it. Don't take the first breath today. It's easy. You can just choose to not breathe. Your body may be sending you signals that you need to breathe but you don't. Just ignore those signals. Choose not to do it. Simple. Right? 

 

Thats how an addict feels. And all the ways your body tells you that you need to breathe to live, her body was telling her she needed heroin to live. So to say she "if she really loved us" she would have quit or "just choose not to do it" is just a huge oversimplification of a complex problem and shows that you just truly don't understand addiction. And I am happy for you that you don't. Because I would not wish what my family went through on anyone. 

 

ed11563 wrote:

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There is real brain science showing that addiction is real, and that it's chemical.

That it's incredibly important that kids, teenagers and younger, NEVER take that first "hit". With tobacco, with crack, with cocaine,

JUST ONE EXPOSURE can trigger chemical dependency. Not in everyone, and (surprisingly) heroin is less addictive than nicotine, but once the trigger is pulled, the craving, the drive to satisfy it AT ANY COST, can be irresistible.

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 I've read that several times, ed.

And I agree 100%.

flan

voiceofreason wrote:

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I know most of us look at the world through our own demographic optic. However, smart people know they're doing that and will manage their ideological beliefs and participate in open discussions without stomping their wee feet and insisting their lens is the only lens. Wafda.

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 And VoR for the win! Could you please bronze this post and make a billboard out of it?