TOTALLY GEEKED!

voiceofreason · Guru

RE: I Had To End My Pregnancy To Save My Life

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

I am not calling the whole pro life movement sick. . . LL and Chef, among others, have been more balanced, and they are extremely pro life.
As for the rest of you. . . if the shoe fits, wear it.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Ohfour wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
What if you can't afford it and aren't good at selling stuff? Are you allowed to opt out and do an alternative assignment? Just curious.

In my hometown, and in Indiana only high school aged kids went to DC and it was on a volunteer basis. No one had to go.

In Indiana, the 8th graders marched at the clinic. I don't think its right for 13 and 14 year olds to harass women in crisis. If they wanted them to work at the pregnancy center where poor women go for help, I would be all for it. Let's preach and teach a solution and an alternative. Let's not teach children to humiliate others for their choices. No matter how much we may disagree with them. Take the high road.
It's a private school. If you can't afford a field trip, you probably can't afford private school. You have to sign all kinds of forms before each school year saying you agree to this and that...even non-catholics...

I don't know how much experience you have with private schools. I have 18 years of experience with them. A LOT of kids in private school are on tuition assistance of some kind. More than you probably realize. Just because you can budget for private school tuition doesn't mean you can afford a field trip - especially if it costs more than $50 or so. That is why I asked.

We knew several large families of 10 or more who didn't pay anything at all and could NOT afford to pay for field trips. Sometimes another family would pay for them, sometimes the kids didn't go.

Ohfour · Hooker

Mellow Momma wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
What if you can't afford it and aren't good at selling stuff? Are you allowed to opt out and do an alternative assignment? Just curious.

In my hometown, and in Indiana only high school aged kids went to DC and it was on a volunteer basis. No one had to go.

In Indiana, the 8th graders marched at the clinic. I don't think its right for 13 and 14 year olds to harass women in crisis. If they wanted them to work at the pregnancy center where poor women go for help, I would be all for it. Let's preach and teach a solution and an alternative. Let's not teach children to humiliate others for their choices. No matter how much we may disagree with them. Take the high road.
It's a private school. If you can't afford a field trip, you probably can't afford private school. You have to sign all kinds of forms before each school year saying you agree to this and that...even non-catholics...
I don't know how much experience you have with private schools. I have 18 years of experience with them. A LOT of kids in private school are on tuition assistance of some kind. More than you probably realize. Just because you can budget for private school tuition doesn't mean you can afford a field trip - especially if it costs more than $50 or so. That is why I asked.
We knew several large families of 10 or more who didn't pay anything at all and could NOT afford to pay for field trips. Sometimes another family would pay for them, sometimes the kids didn't go.

Went to Catholic School the entire 13 years of primary education. I know that the school I went to, and the ones my brothers went to did not offer any assistance. My kids didn't attend catholic school, but my sisters kids did (her son still does, he's a junior and goes to one of the schools that are in DC). I'm talking about Catholic schools in particular, not private schools.

Blankie · Guru

voiceofreason wrote:
My 1st husband said the same thing to me chef. When it came down to it, he was a man of conviction and he signed my potential death warrant in order to save our 3rd daughter. I divorced him 6 months later. I couldn't be with someone who was so cavalier about my life and would have left my other children motherless. But, I gotta say, that man was a truth teller. He said it, he meant it, he did it.

Wow. Just wow, VoR. I'd say you were certainly justified in divorcing him!

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Yep me too.

Every Catholic school our kids went to had a financial aid application. It was a Diocese application so every school in the diocese had the same one. The billboards in town promoting Catholic schools boasted about what % of kids got tuition assistance to encourage people to apply.

voiceofreason · Guru

Blankie wrote:
voiceofreason wrote:
My 1st husband said the same thing to me chef. When it came down to it, he was a man of conviction and he signed my potential death warrant in order to save our 3rd daughter. I divorced him 6 months later. I couldn't be with someone who was so cavalier about my life and would have left my other children motherless. But, I gotta say, that man was a truth teller. He said it, he meant it, he did it.
Wow. Just wow, VoR. I'd say you were certainly justified in divorcing him!

You know, he's a good man and loves his kids dearly. He was just misguided. He's militantly anti-choice. I'm kinda not. smile

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Ohfour wrote:
voiceofreason wrote:
Oh ffs. Saying someone is sick isn't namecalling. And if we're going there, the word bitch was thrown out earlier....someone wanna wash out a grown womans mouth for that too?
Saying an entire group of people and what the stand for is sick is a whole nother ball of wax.

Same as "Death Culture."

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Mellow Momma wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
voiceofreason wrote:
And quit acting all holier than thou O4. ****.
Just calling out the blatant hypocrisy of the majority of the left. They scream a preach tolerance, until someone disagrees with them...then they are "sick"

Well the whole "left" didnt say that. One poster did. Don't lump us all in one group.

But it's so much more dramatic that way...

flan

Ohfour · Hooker

Mellow Momma wrote:
Yep me too.

Every Catholic school our kids went to had a financial aid application. It was a Diocese application so every school in the diocese had the same one. The billboards in town promoting Catholic schools boasted about what % of kids got tuition assistance to encourage people to apply.

Now, families did and still do get sibling discounts. So that may be considered assistance? I've never seen a billboard promoting any Catholic school here, but they all have waiting lists so they probably don't need to advertise. Maybe that's WHY they don't offer tuition assistance. They don't need to. Everyone is more than willing to pay full tuition and if they can't, then there are a line of people that can...

My sister literally put her kids on the list immediately after they were born. Since she was Catholic and a member of the Church that sponsored the school, she got preferential admittance, but that still didn't guarantee her kids a spot.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Ohfour wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Yep me too.

Every Catholic school our kids went to had a financial aid application. It was a Diocese application so every school in the diocese had the same one. The billboards in town promoting Catholic schools boasted about what % of kids got tuition assistance to encourage people to apply.
Now, families did and still do get sibling discounts. So that may be considered assistance? I've never seen a billboard promoting any Catholic school here, but they all have waiting lists so they probably don't need to advertise. Maybe that's WHY they don't offer tuition assistance. They don't need to. Everyone is more than willing to pay full tuition and if they can't, then there are a line of people that can...
My sister literally put her kids on the list immediately after they were born. Since she was Catholic and a member of the Church that sponsored the school, she got preferential admittance, but that still didn't guarantee her kids a spot.

Lol that is totally the difference. We don't have any schools with a waiting list. The only one that did was for kindergarten because the Catholic school kindergarten was all day and the public school was not. That makes total sense.

just Czech · Give Me Grand's!

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
I am not calling the whole pro life movement sick. . . LL and Chef, among others, have been more balanced, and they are extremely pro life.
As for the rest of you. . . if the shoe fits, wear it.

Then I guess I'm a sick pro-lifer. I'll proudly wear the title.

-- Edited by just Czech on Friday 23rd of January 2015 04:42:15 PM

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Blankie wrote:
voiceofreason wrote:
My 1st husband said the same thing to me chef. When it came down to it, he was a man of conviction and he signed my potential death warrant in order to save our 3rd daughter. I divorced him 6 months later. I couldn't be with someone who was so cavalier about my life and would have left my other children motherless. But, I gotta say, that man was a truth teller. He said it, he meant it, he did it.
Wow. Just wow, VoR. I'd say you were certainly justified in divorcing him!

When I was rushed to surgery after the birth of our 2nd, all I could think about was leaving the children without a mother. A new born baby who would never know me. It was terrifying. As the anesthesia took over instead of counting backwards I was saying the name of my newborn over and over.

I can totally understand what you were feeling. I am glad it didn't come to that for you.

voiceofreason · Guru

You know, my life has value. It just does. And my daughters lives have value. If it were a choice between my child or my unborn grandchild I would choose my daughter Every.SingleTime. My daughters lives are more important to me. Same with my dad. He was furious when this happened. As his daughter, I was (and still am) far more valuable than a fetus. He has never forgiven Dh1 for that.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

voiceofreason wrote:
Blankie wrote:
voiceofreason wrote:
My 1st husband said the same thing to me chef. When it came down to it, he was a man of conviction and he signed my potential death warrant in order to save our 3rd daughter. I divorced him 6 months later. I couldn't be with someone who was so cavalier about my life and would have left my other children motherless. But, I gotta say, that man was a truth teller. He said it, he meant it, he did it.
Wow. Just wow, VoR. I'd say you were certainly justified in divorcing him!
You know, he's a good man and loves his kids dearly. He was just misguided. He's militantly anti-choice. I'm kinda not.

I was going to ask a really personal question, but have decided against it.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

voiceofreason wrote:
You know, my life has value. It just does. And my daughters lives have value. If it were a choice between my child or my unborn grandchild I would choose my daughter Every.SingleTime. My daughters lives are more important to me. Same with my dad. He was furious when this happened. As his daughter, I was (and still am) far more valuable than a fetus. He has never forgiven Dh1 for that.

But your daughter is alive, right? You are both still here.

just Czech · Give Me Grand's!

IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.

Ohfour · Hooker

Lawyerlady wrote:
voiceofreason wrote:
You know, my life has value. It just does. And my daughters lives have value. If it were a choice between my child or my unborn grandchild I would choose my daughter Every.SingleTime. My daughters lives are more important to me. Same with my dad. He was furious when this happened. As his daughter, I was (and still am) far more valuable than a fetus. He has never forgiven Dh1 for that.
But your daughter is alive, right? You are both still here.

and yet...

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

just Czech wrote:
IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.

On this board it is, though.

flan

chef · Guru

just Czech wrote:
IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.

I agree - all life has value. I'm mostly pro-life.

But, when one life is certain to be lost - which life matters more? When a decision has to be made, which life matters more?

huskerbb · Guru

All life does have value.

However, in human terms, "lives" are relatively equal in value. If the baby dies and the mother lives, or the mother lives and the baby dies are morally equivalent concepts.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

huskerbb wrote:
All life does have value.

However, in human terms, "lives" are relatively equal in value. If the baby dies and the mother lives, or the mother lives and the baby dies are morally equivalent concepts.

If the mother dying leaves other children motherless, then no, I don't think they are equivalent concepts.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

chef wrote:
just Czech wrote:
IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.
I agree - all life has value. I'm mostly pro-life.
But, when one life is certain to be lost - which life matters more? When a decision has to be made, which life matters more?

I think it has to be decided on an individual basis.

flan

huskerbb · Guru

Mellow Momma wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
All life does have value.

However, in human terms, "lives" are relatively equal in value. If the baby dies and the mother lives, or the mother lives and the baby dies are morally equivalent concepts.
If the mother dying leaves other children motherless, then no, I don't think they are equivalent concepts.

But they are. Many women have chosen to carry risky pregnancies to term--and some of those had tragic results. They gave their life so that their child could live. A precious gift.

I'm not saying the opposite choice is morally wrong if a life is a life--but they are morally equivalent concepts.

You don't know what that child will grow up to be--the grandchildren that child will have that never would have existed.

Blankie · Guru

chef wrote:
just Czech wrote:
IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.
I agree - all life has value. I'm mostly pro-life.
But, when one life is certain to be lost - which life matters more? When a decision has to be made, which life matters more?

I believe in medical ethics, physicians have a responsibility to save the mother's life first.

huskerbb · Guru

Blankie wrote:
chef wrote:
just Czech wrote:
IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.
I agree - all life has value. I'm mostly pro-life.
But, when one life is certain to be lost - which life matters more? When a decision has to be made, which life matters more?
I believe in medical ethics, physicians have a responsibility to save the mother's life first.

That may be--but--are you truly pro-choice? If so, then why is it not then the mother's choice in this case?

It works both ways. If it should be their choice to end a pregnancy--then it should also be their choice to let it continue.

Blankie · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
Blankie wrote:
chef wrote:
just Czech wrote:
IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.
I agree - all life has value. I'm mostly pro-life.
But, when one life is certain to be lost - which life matters more? When a decision has to be made, which life matters more?
I believe in medical ethics, physicians have a responsibility to save the mother's life first.
That may be--but--are you truly pro-choice? If so, then why is it not then the mother's choice in this case?
It works both ways. If it should be their choice to end a pregnancy--then it should also be their choice to let it continue.

She did make the choice. She made the choice to take her doctor's advice. And she did the right thing to save her own life.

If this were an emergency situation, and she was unconscious and doctors had to act quickly, they would have done what was necessary to save her life without her consent.

huskerbb · Guru

Blankie wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Blankie wrote:
chef wrote:
just Czech wrote:
IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.
I agree - all life has value. I'm mostly pro-life.
But, when one life is certain to be lost - which life matters more? When a decision has to be made, which life matters more?
I believe in medical ethics, physicians have a responsibility to save the mother's life first.
That may be--but--are you truly pro-choice? If so, then why is it not then the mother's choice in this case?
It works both ways. If it should be their choice to end a pregnancy--then it should also be their choice to let it continue.
She did make the choice. She made the choice to take her doctor's advice. And she did the right thing to save her own life.
If this were an emergency situation, and she was unconscious and doctors had to act quickly, they would have done what was necessary to save her life without her consent.

But not all cases are like this. Many do not make her choice--so you would compel them to?

huskerbb · Guru

Also, no, it really isn't completely up to the doctor. They would almost certainly consult with whomever has their medical POA--often a husband, but it could be someone else--before they do what they do.

Blankie · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
Blankie wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Blankie wrote:
chef wrote:
just Czech wrote:
IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.
I agree - all life has value. I'm mostly pro-life.
But, when one life is certain to be lost - which life matters more? When a decision has to be made, which life matters more?
I believe in medical ethics, physicians have a responsibility to save the mother's life first.
That may be--but--are you truly pro-choice? If so, then why is it not then the mother's choice in this case?
It works both ways. If it should be their choice to end a pregnancy--then it should also be their choice to let it continue.
She did make the choice. She made the choice to take her doctor's advice. And she did the right thing to save her own life.
If this were an emergency situation, and she was unconscious and doctors had to act quickly, they would have done what was necessary to save her life without her consent.
But not all cases are like this. Many do not make her choice--so you would compel them to?

Where do you get that from what I've said? Stop inventing things that you think I'm saying. It just makes you look foolish.

I said that doctors have an ethical responsibility. And that informs the discussion about which life "matters more" - Chef's words, not my own.

Blankie · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
Also, no, it really isn't completely up to the doctor. They would almost certainly consult with whomever has their medical POA--often a husband, but it could be someone else--before they do what they do.

If there is time, of course they consult. In an emergency when seconds count, they act.

huskerbb · Guru

Blankie wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Blankie wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Blankie wrote:
chef wrote:
just Czech wrote:
IMHO, ALL life has value.
But, that isn't politically correct.
I agree - all life has value. I'm mostly pro-life.
But, when one life is certain to be lost - which life matters more? When a decision has to be made, which life matters more?
I believe in medical ethics, physicians have a responsibility to save the mother's life first.
That may be--but--are you truly pro-choice? If so, then why is it not then the mother's choice in this case?
It works both ways. If it should be their choice to end a pregnancy--then it should also be their choice to let it continue.
She did make the choice. She made the choice to take her doctor's advice. And she did the right thing to save her own life.
If this were an emergency situation, and she was unconscious and doctors had to act quickly, they would have done what was necessary to save her life without her consent.
But not all cases are like this. Many do not make her choice--so you would compel them to?
Where do you get that from what I've said? Stop inventing things that you think I'm saying. It just makes you look foolish.
I said that doctors have an ethical responsibility. And that informs the discussion about which life "matters more" - Chef's words, not my own.

You haven't denied it, either. You hide behind this "ethical responsibility"--when that would RARELY, if ever, come into play. Usually with a risky pregnancy, the decision is make LONG beforehand on whether or not to carry it to term. On the day of the actual birth, it is almost NEVER at that point an either/or scenario that has not been contemplated by the mother, doctor, and other parties.

huskerbb · Guru

Blankie wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Also, no, it really isn't completely up to the doctor. They would almost certainly consult with whomever has their medical POA--often a husband, but it could be someone else--before they do what they do.
If there is time, of course they consult. In an emergency when seconds count, they act.

That is an exceedingly RARE scenario. I doubt you can even find such an instance. Even if you can, it certainly is FAR from common.

Blankie · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
Blankie wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Also, no, it really isn't completely up to the doctor. They would almost certainly consult with whomever has their medical POA--often a husband, but it could be someone else--before they do what they do.
If there is time, of course they consult. In an emergency when seconds count, they act.

That is an exceedingly RARE scenario. I doubt you can even find such an instance. Even if you can, it certainly is FAR from common.

I have seen many cases of malpractice data on emergent childbirth situations in my work. And what is your experience with data on actual childbirth cases?

huskerbb · Guru

Blankie wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Blankie wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Also, no, it really isn't completely up to the doctor. They would almost certainly consult with whomever has their medical POA--often a husband, but it could be someone else--before they do what they do.
If there is time, of course they consult. In an emergency when seconds count, they act.

That is an exceedingly RARE scenario. I doubt you can even find such an instance. Even if you can, it certainly is FAR from common.
I have seen many cases of malpractice data on emergent childbirth situations in my work. And what is your experience with data on actual childbirth cases?

OK, thank you for that irrelevant tangent.

Blankie · Guru

Why am I even engaging with Husker? Not worth it. And he won't even answer the question.

-- Edited by Blankie on Friday 23rd of January 2015 06:15:54 PM

huskerbb · Guru

Blankie wrote:
Why am I even engaging with Husker? Not worth it. And he won't even answer the question.

-- Edited by Blankie on Friday 23rd of January 2015 06:15:54 PM

I've put as much "data" on here as you have.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

I just can't even believe this would be a debate in this situation - the odds were extremely high if she tried to save the baby, they would both die. This wasn't even an either/or situation.

msrock · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
I just can't even believe this would be a debate in this situation - the odds were extremely high if she tried to save the baby, they would both die. This wasn't even an either/or situation.

This. Unfortunately these types of threads... ugh, you know where it's going to go when you read the title. We all pretty much know what's going to happen.

Ohfour · Hooker

I realize that I take a too harsh of stance sometimes. As I said before, I'm jaded. I've come in contact with far too many people that abort for convenience. So I tend to be a little over the top on this...

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Ohfour wrote:
I realize that I take a too harsh of stance sometimes. As I said before, I'm jaded. I've come in contact with far too many people that abort for convenience. So I tend to be a little over the top on this...

That would anger me too, ohfour.

Abortion does NOT equal birth control.

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
Blankie wrote:
Why am I even engaging with Husker? Not worth it. And he won't even answer the question.

-- Edited by Blankie on Friday 23rd of January 2015 06:15:54 PM
I've put as much "data" on here as you have.

So her career experience counts for nothing?

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

msrock wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
I just can't even believe this would be a debate in this situation - the odds were extremely high if she tried to save the baby, they would both die. This wasn't even an either/or situation.
This. Unfortunately these types of threads... ugh, you know where it's going to go when you read the title. We all pretty much know what's going to happen.

And I get frustrated b/c MOST pro-life people I know understand that sometimes abortion IS necessary to save the life of the mother. But if THIS can't be seen as that - what would be?

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Lawyerlady wrote:
msrock wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
I just can't even believe this would be a debate in this situation - the odds were extremely high if she tried to save the baby, they would both die. This wasn't even an either/or situation.
This. Unfortunately these types of threads... ugh, you know where it's going to go when you read the title. We all pretty much know what's going to happen.
And I get frustrated b/c MOST pro-life people I know understand that sometimes abortion IS necessary to save the life of the mother. But if THIS can't be seen as that - what would be?

I am glad to know that there are reasonable people out there. Even though peiple SAY they believe in an exception for the life of the mother, most pro-lifers that I know never seem to think any actual medical cases meet that standard. In theory they believe in the exception but not in practice. It's good to see some pro-lifers actually stand behind that exception.

On the flip side, both flan and I are pro-choice but don't think abortion should be used as birth control. Not all of us would have an abortion just to prove we could.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Ohfour wrote:
I realize that I take a too harsh of stance sometimes. As I said before, I'm jaded. I've come in contact with far too many people that abort for convenience. So I tend to be a little over the top on this...

I am sure this mother thought is was more convenient to live. Since, you know, if she had died, her baby was also going to die.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

55 Million Abortions were not done to "save the life of the mother" . This is simply more propaganda. There is NO medical indication to have an abortion. If mom is in danger, so is baby. The treatment for that is delivery.

Blankie · Guru

Its rather incredible that some people won't believe there are circumstances where abortion is the only correct medical move to save a mother's life. Perhaps folks might hear it better straight from the ACOG:

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists issued a statement saying: "Abortions are necessary in a number of circumstances to save the life of a woman or to preserve her health. Unfortunately, pregnancy is not a risk-free life event."

Conditions that might lead to ending a pregnancy to save a woman's life include severe infections, heart failure and severe cases of preeclampsia, a condition in which a woman develops very high blood pressure and is at risk for stroke, says Erika Levi, a obstetrician and gynecologist at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

"There are certain cases where ending the pregnancy is the only option, cases where it would be putting the mother's life at risk to continue the pregnancy," she says.

Blankie · Guru

Course, why would we want to believe the ACOG over the experts on this board who obviously know better? What could the country's foremost collection of OBs know?

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

55 MILLION ABORTIONS were not due to the "life of the mother". So, go bullschit someone else.

Blankie · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
55 MILLION ABORTIONS were not due to the "life of the mother". So, go bullschit someone else.

I wasn't referring to that statement, dear heart. I was referring to this one of yours:

"There is NO medical indication to have an abortion. If mom is in danger, so is baby. The treatment for that is delivery."

Maybe you might want to backpedal from that a bit?