TOTALLY GEEKED!

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

RE: Do the Amish Drink Hard Liquor?

Ohfour · Hooker

Bottom line, they need to follow the laws the rest of us have to follow. Be that EPA laws, Child Labor Laws, Animal Abuse Laws...they don't get a pass because of their religion.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
You brought it up, Lily.

This has NOTHING to do with what happened to the Native Americans.

flan

The attitude towards them smacks of the same toward the Native American.

They didn't vaccinate, they didn't follow the law of the white men, they had their own way of everything.

And the same attitudes are being expressed here, towards the Amish.

It is easy to draw parallels.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And let's not forget - they pay property and school taxes even though they don't use our schools.
Some do, some don't. And lets not forget those silly Child Labor Laws that they don't have to adhere to...
Wow. You REALLY hate the Amish. They are family members working the farms. The law carves out exceptions for ALL family run businesses - not just the Amish.

Next.

Yup. Not even just kids, but pretty much any relation. Most of my cousins worked for my dad at some point, even if just for pocket money. Being Amish has zero to do with it.

Ohfour · Hooker

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And let's not forget - they pay property and school taxes even though they don't use our schools.
Some do, some don't. And lets not forget those silly Child Labor Laws that they don't have to adhere to...
Wow. You REALLY hate the Amish. They are family members working the farms. The law carves out exceptions for ALL family run businesses - not just the Amish.

Next.
Yup. Not even just kids, but pretty much any relation. Most of my cousins worked for my dad at some point, even if just for pocket money. Being Amish has zero to do with it.

I'm not saying it does...there are laws that state what kind of work can be done by kids for a family business. Except for the Amish.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Well, what work are the Amish kids doing?
I 100% guarantee it is less dangerous that what I was doing at seven and eight. (Driving cars and tractors, moving 1200lb animals, handling corrosive chemicals, using powerful and dangerous equipment, etc.)
Was it within the limits of the law? Probably.
Basically all farm kids grow up like this?
Yuppers.

Being Amish has zero to do with it.

Ohfour · Hooker

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Well, what work are the Amish kids doing?
I 100% guarantee it is less dangerous that what I was doing at seven and eight. (Driving cars and tractors, moving 1200lb animals, handling corrosive chemicals, using powerful and dangerous equipment, etc.)
Was it within the limits of the law? Probably.
Basically all farm kids grow up like this?
Yuppers.

Being Amish has zero to do with it.

Nice to know that your family doesn't give a crap about child labor laws either. You must just be so proud! *eyeroll*

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Ohfour wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Well, what work are the Amish kids doing?
I 100% guarantee it is less dangerous that what I was doing at seven and eight. (Driving cars and tractors, moving 1200lb animals, handling corrosive chemicals, using powerful and dangerous equipment, etc.)
Was it within the limits of the law? Probably.
Basically all farm kids grow up like this?
Yuppers.

Being Amish has zero to do with it.
Nice to know that your family doesn't give a crap about child labor laws either. You must just be so proud! *eyeroll*

Well, I honestly don't have a clue about the laws. At which point do you consider a child an employee? How does a government expect to regulate what they actually do? IMHO, government needs to butt out of family businesses, unless there is actual abuse or neglect going on. Non-family child labor should be regulated, but having your kids help out on the farm, or in the greenhouse or at a coffee shop doesn't need the oversight of our oh-so-competent government.

cadiver · Senior Member

Federal does not restrict the work that can be done by a child on a farm owned and operated by the parents.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Well, what work are the Amish kids doing?
I 100% guarantee it is less dangerous that what I was doing at seven and eight. (Driving cars and tractors, moving 1200lb animals, handling corrosive chemicals, using powerful and dangerous equipment, etc.)
Was it within the limits of the law? Probably.
Basically all farm kids grow up like this?
Yuppers.

Being Amish has zero to do with it.
Nice to know that your family doesn't give a crap about child labor laws either. You must just be so proud! *eyeroll*
Well, I honestly don't have a clue about the laws. At which point do you consider a child an employee? How does a government expect to regulate what they actually do? IMHO, government needs to butt out of family businesses, unless there is actual abuse or neglect going on. Non-family child labor should be regulated, but having your kids help out on the farm, or in the greenhouse or at a coffee shop doesn't need the oversight of our oh-so-competent government.

Farms, greenhouses, and coffee shops all have dangerous chemicals around that children, by law, should not be exposed to. It's for the safety of the child as well as for the safety of the public. i can see a well meaning child cleaning a bathroom and mixing ammonia and bleach to get it super clean...

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

cadiver wrote:
Federal does not restrict the work that can be done by a child on a farm owned and operated by the parents.

Thank you.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
cadiver wrote:
Federal does not restrict the work that can be done by a child on a farm owned and operated by the parents.
Thank you.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/youth/agriculture/other.html

The US dept of Labor says otherwise.

Ohfour · Hooker

cadiver wrote:
Federal does not restrict the work that can be done by a child on a farm owned and operated by the parents.

Many states do though:

State laws usurp Federal laws in this case:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/agriemp2.htm#Virginia

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Mellow Momma wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Well, what work are the Amish kids doing?
I 100% guarantee it is less dangerous that what I was doing at seven and eight. (Driving cars and tractors, moving 1200lb animals, handling corrosive chemicals, using powerful and dangerous equipment, etc.)
Was it within the limits of the law? Probably.
Basically all farm kids grow up like this?
Yuppers.

Being Amish has zero to do with it.
Nice to know that your family doesn't give a crap about child labor laws either. You must just be so proud! *eyeroll*
Well, I honestly don't have a clue about the laws. At which point do you consider a child an employee? How does a government expect to regulate what they actually do? IMHO, government needs to butt out of family businesses, unless there is actual abuse or neglect going on. Non-family child labor should be regulated, but having your kids help out on the farm, or in the greenhouse or at a coffee shop doesn't need the oversight of our oh-so-competent government.
Farms, greenhouses, and coffee shops all have dangerous chemicals around that children, by law, should not be exposed to. It's for the safety of the child as well as for the safety of the public. i can see a well meaning child cleaning a bathroom and mixing ammonia and bleach to get it super clean...

That could also happen in your kitchen.

cadiver · Senior Member

Mellow Momma wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
cadiver wrote:
Federal does not restrict the work that can be done by a child on a farm owned and operated by the parents.
Thank you.
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/youth/agriculture/other.html

The US dept of Labor says otherwise.

From your link:

Some exemptions exist. For example, youths of any age may work at any time in any job on a farm owned or operated by their parents, or someone standing in place of their parent.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Ohfour wrote:
But it is the environmental standards that have changed - not the Amish. So, they need to find a way that fits instead of going about it the most difficult, stubborn way.

Animal abuse laws have changed too. I guess we need to just let them get away with that too. Child Labor Laws? The Amish haven't changed, society has. Let's not ruffle their feathers.

What's with the child labor law issue? FAMILY businesses are exempt for most of those rules. For EVERYONE - not just the Amish. You are intentionally trying to find issue with these people.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Also, if you follow and actually read those links, one specifically states that one of the exceptions to the laws is. . . If you are working for a parent.
In the other, while it does not specifically say so, it appears to be only for children actually employed by someone other than family, as certain age and hour restrictions can be lifted if the parent supplies a form saying so. I didn't look at everything, so an exception for working for the parents may well be in there.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Good grief - the nanny state posse is in the house.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Mellow Momma wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Well, what work are the Amish kids doing?
I 100% guarantee it is less dangerous that what I was doing at seven and eight. (Driving cars and tractors, moving 1200lb animals, handling corrosive chemicals, using powerful and dangerous equipment, etc.)
Was it within the limits of the law? Probably.
Basically all farm kids grow up like this?
Yuppers.

Being Amish has zero to do with it.
Nice to know that your family doesn't give a crap about child labor laws either. You must just be so proud! *eyeroll*
Well, I honestly don't have a clue about the laws. At which point do you consider a child an employee? How does a government expect to regulate what they actually do? IMHO, government needs to butt out of family businesses, unless there is actual abuse or neglect going on. Non-family child labor should be regulated, but having your kids help out on the farm, or in the greenhouse or at a coffee shop doesn't need the oversight of our oh-so-competent government.
Farms, greenhouses, and coffee shops all have dangerous chemicals around that children, by law, should not be exposed to. It's for the safety of the child as well as for the safety of the public. i can see a well meaning child cleaning a bathroom and mixing ammonia and bleach to get it super clean...

Well, apparently, that's not an issue for the Amish - they use outhouses.

cadiver · Senior Member

Ohfour wrote:
cadiver wrote:
Federal does not restrict the work that can be done by a child on a farm owned and operated by the parents.
Many states do though:
State laws usurp Federal laws in this case:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/agriemp2.htm#Virginia

the table is a summary, the may be some staes that have extra requirements but you would need to check each state. The footnote from your link:

¹ Agricultural employment is exempted from or is not listed among the covered sectors in the child labor laws of 17 states: Alabama, Delaware (non-hazardous employment), Georgia, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland (non-hazardous employment), Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska (covers only work in detasseling and beet fields), North Carolina, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, West Virginia (non-hazardous employment) and Wyoming. Laws generally exclude minors employed by parents on family farms.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
It's like this - if suddenly the local government decided that all the septic tanks installed in the last 20 years are not environmentally friendly, they can't just tell everyone they have to dig them up and replace them. They can regulate what goes in NEW, but not what already exists.
WRONG! We were told that septic tanks were no longer acceptable in our subdivision and that we had to pay to connect to sewer.

This isn't my subdivision, but it's happening many places...including mine...

Carmel residents forced to move from septic to sewer
by Diana Lamirand
Chris Katterjohn knows it's only a matter of time before he's forced to connect to a new sanitary sewer system installed in his Carmel neighborhood.
The Clay Township Regional Waste District required two of his neighbors in the Oak Tree subdivision to connect, but he and 11 others escaped the district's project to extend sanitary sewer to 25 homes near 116th Street and Shelborne Road.
"It's going to be a big expense and I'd rather not do it," says Katterjohn, an Angie's List member. "I've got a septic system that works just fine. If it's not broken, why fix it?"
CTRWD Utility Director Andrew Williams says pollution from failed septic systems is most often the reason for extending sanitary sewers into a neighborhood. The Hamilton County Health Department requires certain criteria when replacing septics, such as not putting the new one in the same spot.
"There are residents with failed septic systems who don't have enough ground to put in a replacement," Williams says.
Angie's List members Dean and Carole Kimsey spent more than $12,000 to connect to the new sewer in Oak Tree. "We've lived here for 21 years and we worried about our septic tank anyway," Carole says. "In order to replace a septic system to today's standards, it would cost about the same as this."
The Kimseys are among about 266 Clay Township homeowners who have received a connect notice from CTRWD in the last year. Following neighborhood meetings and public hearings, the CTRWD board decides whether to extend sanitary sewer and sets monthly sewer rates.
Residents have five years to connect and 90 days to make financial arrangements. About half opt to pay it immediately while the other half agree to five-, 10- or 20-year repayment plans. If they refuse to connect, a judge could order them to comply.
Jeffrey Franz, one of nearly 100 homeowners in the Holaday Hills and Dales subdivision near 99th Street and Westfield Boulevard, is paying $19.96 a month for 20 years for his neighborhood's sewer lines.
He plans to wait five years before hooking into it, and then he'll pay an additional $1,750 connection and application fee. And that doesn't include the $6,000 to $8,000 he'll likely pay a contractor to install a pump and make the connection.

I'd like to see this withstand a legal challenge before calling it precedent.

cadiver · Senior Member

I am applying labor laws that affect agriculture work. These would not apply to a family coffee house.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

As for EPA regulations, and animal abuse. . .
Animal abuse has been in the news lately. A lot. And there is a growning awareness of it. I have never heard of Amish people 'getting away' with animal abuse, as in, the proper authorities were notified and refused action or legally took no action because of their religion.
If someone does know of an instance where that happened--not just 'all farmers treat their animal horribly, and the Amish are horrible and I hate them' please link it, and I will stand corrected.
Also, one of my pet peeves is people crying abuse of farm animal where no abuse is taking place.
Dehorning is not abuse.
Giving shots is not abuse.
Trailering animals to and fro is not abuse.
Cutting the switch (the part of the tail that is only hair) off of a cow is not abuse.
Using dogs to move animals is not abusive to the cows or the dogs.
I have had people cry abuse at all of those things, and it is so scary. People are losing sight of what abuse is, and how it needs to be handled.

EPA regulations vary on what kind of farm you have, and how big it is. I have never heard of them varying based on religion.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Lawyerlady wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Well, what work are the Amish kids doing?
I 100% guarantee it is less dangerous that what I was doing at seven and eight. (Driving cars and tractors, moving 1200lb animals, handling corrosive chemicals, using powerful and dangerous equipment, etc.)
Was it within the limits of the law? Probably.
Basically all farm kids grow up like this?
Yuppers.

Being Amish has zero to do with it.
Nice to know that your family doesn't give a crap about child labor laws either. You must just be so proud! *eyeroll*
Well, I honestly don't have a clue about the laws. At which point do you consider a child an employee? How does a government expect to regulate what they actually do? IMHO, government needs to butt out of family businesses, unless there is actual abuse or neglect going on. Non-family child labor should be regulated, but having your kids help out on the farm, or in the greenhouse or at a coffee shop doesn't need the oversight of our oh-so-competent government.
Farms, greenhouses, and coffee shops all have dangerous chemicals around that children, by law, should not be exposed to. It's for the safety of the child as well as for the safety of the public. i can see a well meaning child cleaning a bathroom and mixing ammonia and bleach to get it super clean...
Well, apparently, that's not an issue for the Amish - they use outhouses.

I just choked on my tea! LL for the win!

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

biggrin

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Mellow Momma wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Well, what work are the Amish kids doing?
I 100% guarantee it is less dangerous that what I was doing at seven and eight. (Driving cars and tractors, moving 1200lb animals, handling corrosive chemicals, using powerful and dangerous equipment, etc.)
Was it within the limits of the law? Probably.
Basically all farm kids grow up like this?
Yuppers.

Being Amish has zero to do with it.
Nice to know that your family doesn't give a crap about child labor laws either. You must just be so proud! *eyeroll*
Well, I honestly don't have a clue about the laws. At which point do you consider a child an employee? How does a government expect to regulate what they actually do? IMHO, government needs to butt out of family businesses, unless there is actual abuse or neglect going on. Non-family child labor should be regulated, but having your kids help out on the farm, or in the greenhouse or at a coffee shop doesn't need the oversight of our oh-so-competent government.
Farms, greenhouses, and coffee shops all have dangerous chemicals around that children, by law, should not be exposed to. It's for the safety of the child as well as for the safety of the public. i can see a well meaning child cleaning a bathroom and mixing ammonia and bleach to get it super clean...

If I am not mistaken, and please, correct me if I am, you were saying on another thread that "kids learn how to clean at home". Or something to that effect. And that it is the parent's job to teach the child to do things so they can grow up to be productive, self efficient adults.

But now that same child cant clean a bathroom? Why? Did they suddenly become incapable of thought and carrying out simple tasks?

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Ohfour · Hooker

Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
It's like this - if suddenly the local government decided that all the septic tanks installed in the last 20 years are not environmentally friendly, they can't just tell everyone they have to dig them up and replace them. They can regulate what goes in NEW, but not what already exists.
WRONG! We were told that septic tanks were no longer acceptable in our subdivision and that we had to pay to connect to sewer.

This isn't my subdivision, but it's happening many places...including mine...

Carmel residents forced to move from septic to sewer
by Diana Lamirand
Chris Katterjohn knows it's only a matter of time before he's forced to connect to a new sanitary sewer system installed in his Carmel neighborhood.
The Clay Township Regional Waste District required two of his neighbors in the Oak Tree subdivision to connect, but he and 11 others escaped the district's project to extend sanitary sewer to 25 homes near 116th Street and Shelborne Road.
"It's going to be a big expense and I'd rather not do it," says Katterjohn, an Angie's List member. "I've got a septic system that works just fine. If it's not broken, why fix it?"
CTRWD Utility Director Andrew Williams says pollution from failed septic systems is most often the reason for extending sanitary sewers into a neighborhood. The Hamilton County Health Department requires certain criteria when replacing septics, such as not putting the new one in the same spot.
"There are residents with failed septic systems who don't have enough ground to put in a replacement," Williams says.
Angie's List members Dean and Carole Kimsey spent more than $12,000 to connect to the new sewer in Oak Tree. "We've lived here for 21 years and we worried about our septic tank anyway," Carole says. "In order to replace a septic system to today's standards, it would cost about the same as this."
The Kimseys are among about 266 Clay Township homeowners who have received a connect notice from CTRWD in the last year. Following neighborhood meetings and public hearings, the CTRWD board decides whether to extend sanitary sewer and sets monthly sewer rates.
Residents have five years to connect and 90 days to make financial arrangements. About half opt to pay it immediately while the other half agree to five-, 10- or 20-year repayment plans. If they refuse to connect, a judge could order them to comply.
Jeffrey Franz, one of nearly 100 homeowners in the Holaday Hills and Dales subdivision near 99th Street and Westfield Boulevard, is paying $19.96 a month for 20 years for his neighborhood's sewer lines.
He plans to wait five years before hooking into it, and then he'll pay an additional $1,750 connection and application fee. And that doesn't include the $6,000 to $8,000 he'll likely pay a contractor to install a pump and make the connection.
I'd like to see this withstand a legal challenge before calling it precedent.

The Amish DID challenge it. They lost. They went to jail and had their homes padlocked. If the Amish can't win with their special treatment, an average citizen sure isn't going to win.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Well said Dona. Animal abuse is often cried when there is none.

Same with the child labor.

Don't know when or why our country became a nation of do nothings and tattle tells and such like it is now but it really is becoming a hostile place for those just trying to make a living and feed a family.

I remember a story several years ago. A grandfather was charged with abuse because his 9 year old grandson was helping in the fields after school. He wasn't doing anything but cleaning and pulling. But his grandfather was arrested for this.

It's just crazy.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
It's like this - if suddenly the local government decided that all the septic tanks installed in the last 20 years are not environmentally friendly, they can't just tell everyone they have to dig them up and replace them. They can regulate what goes in NEW, but not what already exists.
WRONG! We were told that septic tanks were no longer acceptable in our subdivision and that we had to pay to connect to sewer.

This isn't my subdivision, but it's happening many places...including mine...

Carmel residents forced to move from septic to sewer
by Diana Lamirand
Chris Katterjohn knows it's only a matter of time before he's forced to connect to a new sanitary sewer system installed in his Carmel neighborhood.
The Clay Township Regional Waste District required two of his neighbors in the Oak Tree subdivision to connect, but he and 11 others escaped the district's project to extend sanitary sewer to 25 homes near 116th Street and Shelborne Road.
"It's going to be a big expense and I'd rather not do it," says Katterjohn, an Angie's List member. "I've got a septic system that works just fine. If it's not broken, why fix it?"
CTRWD Utility Director Andrew Williams says pollution from failed septic systems is most often the reason for extending sanitary sewers into a neighborhood. The Hamilton County Health Department requires certain criteria when replacing septics, such as not putting the new one in the same spot.
"There are residents with failed septic systems who don't have enough ground to put in a replacement," Williams says.
Angie's List members Dean and Carole Kimsey spent more than $12,000 to connect to the new sewer in Oak Tree. "We've lived here for 21 years and we worried about our septic tank anyway," Carole says. "In order to replace a septic system to today's standards, it would cost about the same as this."
The Kimseys are among about 266 Clay Township homeowners who have received a connect notice from CTRWD in the last year. Following neighborhood meetings and public hearings, the CTRWD board decides whether to extend sanitary sewer and sets monthly sewer rates.
Residents have five years to connect and 90 days to make financial arrangements. About half opt to pay it immediately while the other half agree to five-, 10- or 20-year repayment plans. If they refuse to connect, a judge could order them to comply.
Jeffrey Franz, one of nearly 100 homeowners in the Holaday Hills and Dales subdivision near 99th Street and Westfield Boulevard, is paying $19.96 a month for 20 years for his neighborhood's sewer lines.
He plans to wait five years before hooking into it, and then he'll pay an additional $1,750 connection and application fee. And that doesn't include the $6,000 to $8,000 he'll likely pay a contractor to install a pump and make the connection.
I'd like to see this withstand a legal challenge before calling it precedent.
The Amish DID challenge it. They lost. They went to jail and had their homes padlocked. If the Amish can't win with their special treatment, an average citizen sure isn't going to win.

And yet, this whole thread you have done nothing but whine and complain that the laws don't apply to the Amish?

Are you even reading what you are posting?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
It's like this - if suddenly the local government decided that all the septic tanks installed in the last 20 years are not environmentally friendly, they can't just tell everyone they have to dig them up and replace them. They can regulate what goes in NEW, but not what already exists.
WRONG! We were told that septic tanks were no longer acceptable in our subdivision and that we had to pay to connect to sewer.

This isn't my subdivision, but it's happening many places...including mine...

Carmel residents forced to move from septic to sewer
by Diana Lamirand
Chris Katterjohn knows it's only a matter of time before he's forced to connect to a new sanitary sewer system installed in his Carmel neighborhood.
The Clay Township Regional Waste District required two of his neighbors in the Oak Tree subdivision to connect, but he and 11 others escaped the district's project to extend sanitary sewer to 25 homes near 116th Street and Shelborne Road.
"It's going to be a big expense and I'd rather not do it," says Katterjohn, an Angie's List member. "I've got a septic system that works just fine. If it's not broken, why fix it?"
CTRWD Utility Director Andrew Williams says pollution from failed septic systems is most often the reason for extending sanitary sewers into a neighborhood. The Hamilton County Health Department requires certain criteria when replacing septics, such as not putting the new one in the same spot.
"There are residents with failed septic systems who don't have enough ground to put in a replacement," Williams says.
Angie's List members Dean and Carole Kimsey spent more than $12,000 to connect to the new sewer in Oak Tree. "We've lived here for 21 years and we worried about our septic tank anyway," Carole says. "In order to replace a septic system to today's standards, it would cost about the same as this."
The Kimseys are among about 266 Clay Township homeowners who have received a connect notice from CTRWD in the last year. Following neighborhood meetings and public hearings, the CTRWD board decides whether to extend sanitary sewer and sets monthly sewer rates.
Residents have five years to connect and 90 days to make financial arrangements. About half opt to pay it immediately while the other half agree to five-, 10- or 20-year repayment plans. If they refuse to connect, a judge could order them to comply.
Jeffrey Franz, one of nearly 100 homeowners in the Holaday Hills and Dales subdivision near 99th Street and Westfield Boulevard, is paying $19.96 a month for 20 years for his neighborhood's sewer lines.
He plans to wait five years before hooking into it, and then he'll pay an additional $1,750 connection and application fee. And that doesn't include the $6,000 to $8,000 he'll likely pay a contractor to install a pump and make the connection.
I'd like to see this withstand a legal challenge before calling it precedent.
The Amish DID challenge it. They lost. They went to jail and had their homes padlocked. If the Amish can't win with their special treatment, an average citizen sure isn't going to win.

The Amish without a lawyer? Yeah, that's not much of a fight. But I was talking about this example you used above.

Ohfour · Hooker

The government got it right THIS time. The Amish would rather lose their homes than follow the law, so they are still trying to fight it, Bible be darned! They are losing their entitled status (not fast enough though). Maybe someday, they will have to follow the same laws everyone else does...*sigh*

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Ohfour wrote:
The government got it right THIS time. The Amish would rather lose their homes than follow the law, so they are still trying to fight it, Bible be darned! They are losing their entitled status (not fast enough though). Maybe someday, they will have to follow the same laws everyone else does...*sigh*

Maybe someday big brother will stop changing the laws on them and expecting them to just heel.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
Well said Dona. Animal abuse is often cried when there is none.

Same with the child labor.

Don't know when or why our country became a nation of do nothings and tattle tells and such like it is now but it really is becoming a hostile place for those just trying to make a living and feed a family.

I remember a story several years ago. A grandfather was charged with abuse because his 9 year old grandson was helping in the fields after school. He wasn't doing anything but cleaning and pulling. But his grandfather was arrested for this.

It's just crazy.

How about those cheating the system and bragging about it?

After DH1 died, I never got a penny of help: no reduced school lunches, no WIC, nothing. I didn't qualify.

Maybe I should have lied about my income...

flan

Ohfour · Hooker

Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
It's like this - if suddenly the local government decided that all the septic tanks installed in the last 20 years are not environmentally friendly, they can't just tell everyone they have to dig them up and replace them. They can regulate what goes in NEW, but not what already exists.
WRONG! We were told that septic tanks were no longer acceptable in our subdivision and that we had to pay to connect to sewer.

This isn't my subdivision, but it's happening many places...including mine...

Carmel residents forced to move from septic to sewer
by Diana Lamirand
Chris Katterjohn knows it's only a matter of time before he's forced to connect to a new sanitary sewer system installed in his Carmel neighborhood.
The Clay Township Regional Waste District required two of his neighbors in the Oak Tree subdivision to connect, but he and 11 others escaped the district's project to extend sanitary sewer to 25 homes near 116th Street and Shelborne Road.
"It's going to be a big expense and I'd rather not do it," says Katterjohn, an Angie's List member. "I've got a septic system that works just fine. If it's not broken, why fix it?"
CTRWD Utility Director Andrew Williams says pollution from failed septic systems is most often the reason for extending sanitary sewers into a neighborhood. The Hamilton County Health Department requires certain criteria when replacing septics, such as not putting the new one in the same spot.
"There are residents with failed septic systems who don't have enough ground to put in a replacement," Williams says.
Angie's List members Dean and Carole Kimsey spent more than $12,000 to connect to the new sewer in Oak Tree. "We've lived here for 21 years and we worried about our septic tank anyway," Carole says. "In order to replace a septic system to today's standards, it would cost about the same as this."
The Kimseys are among about 266 Clay Township homeowners who have received a connect notice from CTRWD in the last year. Following neighborhood meetings and public hearings, the CTRWD board decides whether to extend sanitary sewer and sets monthly sewer rates.
Residents have five years to connect and 90 days to make financial arrangements. About half opt to pay it immediately while the other half agree to five-, 10- or 20-year repayment plans. If they refuse to connect, a judge could order them to comply.
Jeffrey Franz, one of nearly 100 homeowners in the Holaday Hills and Dales subdivision near 99th Street and Westfield Boulevard, is paying $19.96 a month for 20 years for his neighborhood's sewer lines.
He plans to wait five years before hooking into it, and then he'll pay an additional $1,750 connection and application fee. And that doesn't include the $6,000 to $8,000 he'll likely pay a contractor to install a pump and make the connection.
I'd like to see this withstand a legal challenge before calling it precedent.
The Amish DID challenge it. They lost. They went to jail and had their homes padlocked. If the Amish can't win with their special treatment, an average citizen sure isn't going to win.

The Amish without a lawyer? Yeah, that's not much of a fight. But I was talking about this example you used above.

Hey, that's their choice. No one told them they couldn't hire a lawyer.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Not everyone can afford a lawyer, and most Amish won't take government assistance like a public defender.

Ohfour · Hooker

Lawyerlady wrote:
Not everyone can afford a lawyer, and most Amish won't take government assistance like a public defender.

Meh, then they have a problem, don't they?

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Well said Dona. Animal abuse is often cried when there is none.

Same with the child labor.

Don't know when or why our country became a nation of do nothings and tattle tells and such like it is now but it really is becoming a hostile place for those just trying to make a living and feed a family.

I remember a story several years ago. A grandfather was charged with abuse because his 9 year old grandson was helping in the fields after school. He wasn't doing anything but cleaning and pulling. But his grandfather was arrested for this.

It's just crazy.
How about those cheating the system and bragging about it?
After DH1 died, I never got a penny of help: no reduced school lunches, no WIC, nothing. I didn't qualify.
Maybe I should have lied about my income...
flan

And what exactly does one have to do with the other?

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Ohfour wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Not everyone can afford a lawyer, and most Amish won't take government assistance like a public defender.
Meh, then they have a problem, don't they?

They can't afford lawyers? If they can supposedly pay cash for everything else, then I would say they would have no trouble affording a lawyer.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

They can afford lawyers.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

To to rehash. . . You are annoyed that they aren't paying for taxes that don't exist for them, they are violating laws they are already exempt to, and they aren't being held to the same standard even though a whole bunch were apparently JAILED and REMOVED FROM THEIR HOMES for a septic violation.

Right. Totally makes sense.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

We have a lot of former migrant workers here. They now stay year round. They pay for stuff with rolls of cash but get all the welfare benefits. HUGE rolls of cash. They have little rent, many families stay in one home.

Ohfour · Hooker

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
To to rehash. . . You are annoyed that they aren't paying for taxes that don't exist for them, they are violating laws they are already exempt to, and they aren't being held to the same standard even though a whole bunch were apparently JAILED and REMOVED FROM THEIR HOMES for a septic violation.

Right. Totally makes sense.

Doesn't go quite far enough...

They should be paying more taxes, they shouldn't be exempt from certain laws, and they should be punished for the ones they break. They are no better than the rest of us.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

This is why we need a use tax instead of income tax. If they go out and buy stuff then they can pay taxes like everyone else.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Ohfour wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
To to rehash. . . You are annoyed that they aren't paying for taxes that don't exist for them, they are violating laws they are already exempt to, and they aren't being held to the same standard even though a whole bunch were apparently JAILED and REMOVED FROM THEIR HOMES for a septic violation.

Right. Totally makes sense.
Doesn't go quite far enough...
They should be paying more taxes, they shouldn't be exempt from certain laws, and they should be punished for the ones they break. They are no better than the rest of us.

Apparently, they are. You expect them to pay taxes the law doesn't require. Do you just hand your money over willy nilly to the government for taxes they don't charge you?

And the exemptions from the law are available to everyone, you just don't use them.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

They do.

This is really getting silly now.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Southern_Belle wrote:
This is why we need a use tax instead of income tax. If they go out and buy stuff then they can pay taxes like everyone else.

Well, that still won't work for cars and the tag registration fees and wheel tax. They don't buy those. Of course, maybe we should MAKE them buy cars like any good American should do. evileye

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

lilyofcourse wrote:
They do.

This is really getting silly now.

Yes, it is. Just outlaw being Amish and be done with it. Who cares about the pesky first amendment?

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

Lawyerlady wrote:
Southern_Belle wrote:
This is why we need a use tax instead of income tax. If they go out and buy stuff then they can pay taxes like everyone else.
Well, that still won't work for cars and the tag registration fees and wheel tax. They don't buy those. Of course, maybe we should MAKE them buy cars like any good American should do.

Yes, we need more cars on the road!

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Ohfour wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
To to rehash. . . You are annoyed that they aren't paying for taxes that don't exist for them, they are violating laws they are already exempt to, and they aren't being held to the same standard even though a whole bunch were apparently JAILED and REMOVED FROM THEIR HOMES for a septic violation.

Right. Totally makes sense.
Doesn't go quite far enough...
They should be paying more taxes, they shouldn't be exempt from certain laws, and they should be punished for the ones they break. They are no better than the rest of us.

You are making no sense.

Why on earth shouldn't they be exempt from the same laws that plenty of other people are also exempt from? Specifically, the child labor laws? Basically every family farm is exempt, yet the Amish shouldn't be? Why not?

You said yourself that taxes based off road use are payed for and enforced by car registration. So, Amish communities that own a car or two are paying that tax, and ones that don't, are not required to. So, what, exactly, is the issue here? They are not 'exempted' from the tax by some magical prowess granted by being Amish, they don't own cars. Which is how the tax is regulated and collected.

They went to JAIL for breaking a law. How much more punishment do you want?