How the feck is it fraud? I helped a guy buy groceries. The fact hat he had an ebt card was what introduced me to his need but helping a guy buy groceries is NOT fraud.

Wtf? Seriously. How the **** do ou get fraud outta that? Because someone has a card no one can help them? I helped a guy. That isn't fraud by any ****ing stretch. It's called generosity in my neck of the woods. Should I ask everyone if they have ebt before I help them? If they say yes do I then rescind my offer of help. Talk to me like I'm a six year old cuz I'm not fcking getting this.

Am I not typing in english?

No!!!!! I bought HIM groceries with MY money. Wtf are you reading?

I'm confused. I thought you used to card for your own food and gave him money.

Southern_Belle wrote:

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I'm confused. I thought you used to card for your own food and gave him money.

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 Right.  Cuz I would EVER admit that here.  

voiceofreason wrote:

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Southern_Belle wrote:

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I'm confused. I thought you used to card for your own food and gave him money.

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 Right.  Cuz I would EVER admit that here.  

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 I'd never DO it.

voiceofreason wrote:

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Let me pose this question. What about the people who are buying those cards, or paying 50 cents on the dollar for the snap benefits?

I've paid for groceries for someone who tried to sell me their card and gave them $50. Why? Because I could.

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 THIS?  The part that says TRIED to sell me their card?

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

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Why are we not allowed to be mad about welfare fraud? You should be very angry as well because it means less helpand mobey for those who truly need it.

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 The new Governor of Mass is making the the welfare dept re verify everyone on the dole.  He gets some people should be on it but knows there are many gaming the system. He is getting rid of self declaration of being indigent but not having to produce documents or SS#'s.  And some other stuff.

 

It reminds me of a situation here not that long ago. Auto insurance companies stopped investigating claims under 10K.  So scammers set up "accidents" and paid people $200 each to claim they were a victim and each would collect about 2K from the insurance company, who didn't investigate.  Claim was it was cheaper to pay out then prosecute.  Oh no, no, no it is not cheaper. So a women who BTW was an illegal Immigrant, and a frequent player in this scam was killed in one of the set of accidents.   Well the outcry compelled the insurance industry to start investigating every single car accident claim.  You know what happened?  The car accident rate decreased by like 90% because the insurance industry stopped blindly paying!  What a bunch of jerks for paying in the first place.

 

My point is if you stop having checks and balances, you invite fraud.

Nobody said that whatsoever.

You can't disagree or look at anything critically anymore or have a real discussion. It just turns into a very High School type thing with an " oh u are a hater" or whatever . Sheesh.

Because its like High School. Being critical means you hate everyone and everything.

Tinydancer wrote:

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I can't see how saying all people who receive aid aren't cheaters is wrong...lol. We are disagreeing so you're saying only children disagree? Ok. Then I'm rubber you're glue...lol

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 No Tiny, what MOST of us here are saying is that there definitely is some fraud on the system.  We're not saying ALL the people.  I don't know the percentage.  But it happens.  It definitely happens.  They've had huge articles on scams and rings that have been busted.  I don't think MOST people cheat the system.  And I don't think most here are saying that either.  But it does happen.  To say it doesn't is like sticking your head in the sand.  And to justify the fraud for any reason is just justifying stealing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/us/food-stamp-fraud-in-the-underground-economy.html?_r=0

Food Stamp Fraud, Rare but Troubling

IRWINTON, Ga. — In the back of Shinholster’s Grocery and Meat Market, they simmer pig skin and lard in an old black kettle. Hams from animals raised in the yard hang near an aging cash register.

It is hard to imagine that this tiny store off a country road in the middle of Georgia was the center of $4.6 million in food stamp fraud.

As Republicans in Congress demand cuts to the $79.8 billion food stamp program, every aspect of it is being examined, including whether people should be allowed to buy candy bars and energy drinks with the aid, and who qualifies for help that averages out to about $133 a month for one person.

Allegations of fraud, including an informal economy in which food stamps are turned into cash or used to buy liquor, gasoline or other items besides food have been used to argue that the program is out of control. In fact, the black market accounts for just over 1 percent of the total food stamp program, which is far less than fraud in other government programs like Medicare and Medicaid.

Photo

Elbert Eugene Shinholster and Kim Watkins, his daughter, at the family store in Georgia. He was convicted of fraud, swiping benefits cards for cash. Credit Bryan Meltz for The New York Times

Still, some abuse persists, even in unlikely corners. The little country store that Elbert Eugene Shinholster, 77, opened in the 1980s did not start out as a criminal enterprise. But slowly, as poverty in Wilkinson County worsened, Mr. Shinholster began swiping customers’ electronic benefits cards and handing over a mix of groceries and cash to help people get by.

Soon, people were coming by just for the cash.

For the service, he kept 30 cents on the dollar for himself. “I know what I was doing was against the law, but I didn’t think I was doing anything wrong,” he said in an interview this month, days before he began serving a three-year sentence in a federal prison.

His children say their father, a former N.A.A.C.P. leader, a veteran and a churchgoer, was simply a soft touch who tried to help people keep the lights on and the children fed. The federal government says he is a conspicuous example of illegal food stamp trafficking.

With a program that has nearly doubled since 2006 to 47.3 million people, the Department of Agriculture has stepped up efforts to stop people like Mr. Shinholster and his customers from abusing it.

Officially, the amount of money lost to underground trafficking is estimated to be 1.3 percent annually. That is down from more than 4 percent in the 1990s when paper coupons had not yet been replaced by electronic benefit cards, called E.B.T.'s, in the program that is formally known as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP.

Include erroneous payments to recipients because of errors on the part of the government or outright lying on applications, and the overall loss to the food stamp program is about 4.07 percent, according to the Department of Agriculture.

Although the sheer size of the program means that more than $3 billion is lost to trafficking, fraud and overpayments each year, the rate is less than other government programs, according to federal audits. The Government Accountability Office has estimated that Medicare and Medicaid lose nearly 10 percent to fraud.

Still, at a time when a congressional committee is trying to reconcile a new farm bill spending package — 78 percent of which is devoted to food stamps and other nutrition programs — reports of black-market food stamp operations capture the public’s attention.

“It’s a small percentage of the program, but I don’t tolerate it, and I worry about it because I don’t want the American public to unfairly paint the millions of people who play by the rules,” said Kevin Concannon, the Department of Agriculture under secretary who oversees the program.

To that end, the department has been getting tough on the food stamp black market. In 2012, more than 100 Food and Nutrition Service investigators reviewed more than 15,000 stores and conducted nearly 4,500 undercover investigations. The effort brought 667 indictments, about 10 percent more than the year before.

Still, with more than 200,000 retailers and millions of users, policing the program is a challenge, and food stamps remain an important underground currency in some communities. On the street or in certain stores, a full E.B.T. card can be turned into cash to keep the lights on, buy alcohol or otherwise soothe the bumps that come with poverty.

In poor neighborhoods both urban and rural, signs announcing “We Accept E.B.T. Cards” hang outside grocery stores, gas stations and even liquor stores.

“The thing is when you live in a county where 18 percent of the people live below the poverty line, they are going to do what they have to do,” said Kim Watkins, Mr. Shinholster’s daughter, who said her family would probably close down the market with her father in prison.

Photo

Mr. Shinholster, 77, is serving a three-year sentence in federal prison for swiping customers' electronic benefits cards in exchange for cash. Credit Bryan Meltz for The New York Times

Another nearby operation that was not much more than a fake storefront was hit in the same federal investigation that took her father’s business, but she says it will not stop the black market in Wilkinson County.

“I can take my E.B.T. card and go down the street right now and fill my car up with gas,” she said.

Who qualifies for food stamps is based a complex mix of age, income and other factors. People who get government help with heating bills or qualify for cash aid, for example, automatically qualify for food stamps. People can buy only food, but not all food. Splenda, but not prepared food like rotisserie chicken; Bloody Mary mix, but not the vodka to put in it.

The digital age has helped investigators track fraud, but it has also opened up new ways to sell food stamps.

Continue reading the main story

Recent Comments

“Anybody got food stamps for sell? Lol really tho. I’ll buy them off you EVERY month starting now lol I’ll give you at least $100 every time,” wrote someone who uses the Twitter name @TroubleManHam.

A reporter’s call to a number on Craigslist brought an offer for a shopping trip with a man in the Atlanta area who was willing to pay $100 to use $200 worth of food stamps. He even suggested the stores: Costco and Kroger.

As part of its increased focus on enforcement, the U.S.D.A. last year sent letters to Craigslist, eBay, Facebook and Twitter asking for help policing food stamp trafficking.

The department has also stepped up data mining, using new software to track people who ask for replacement cards suspiciously often or stores where food stamp sales seem unusually high, Mr. Concannon said.

Although more than 80 percent of food stamps are spent at large grocery stores and retailers like Sam’s Club, the department focuses its investigation on smaller stores because that is where fraud is more likely to occur, he said.

Sometimes, the payoff is big. In Georgia, investigators recently uncovered a string of 13 fake grocery stores where more than $8 million in food stamps and vouchers for the Women, Infants and Children food program had been laundered.

People could get from 10 cents to 60 cents for each government dollar they charged at the stores. Thirteen of the 16 people charged admitted the crime. The others face trial.

One of the operations was called the Baby Spot, now a small, empty storefront in a strip mall in a part of metropolitan Atlanta, so desolate even the fast food restaurants have packed up and left.

At a video game and computer repair shop next door, customers said that the E.B.T. black market was nothing new and that it still thrived.

“Most of the people I know use food stamps, but 90 percent of the people who are on food stamps need them,” said Reginald Davis, the owner of the store.

The bigger issue, he said, is why poor people are being targeted at all.

“They make a bigger deal of people trying to sell $200 worth of food stamps than they do over a banker who steals $10 million,” he said. “You come out here and look around and then tell me you’re going to sweat someone for that. People here got nothing.”

Just two articles. There's many more. Fraud exists.

That poor horse. It's been beat to death over and over and over and over.

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

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We ride hard!

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 Rode hard and put up wet!

Tinydancer wrote:

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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

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Lawyerlady wrote:

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voiceofreason wrote:

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It doesn't matter one bit to me that people resent the food assistance program. Be grateful. The 80 year old man I helped was tearfully grateful. I know the ASSumption was that he was a woman with children who smoked and drank and probably shot heroin. My first post about perception stands solid.

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 I don't care if he's an 80 year old man.  Someone who is attempting to sell their EBT food assistance card for cash is committing fraud.  And of course he was grateful, that doesn't make what he attempted to do any less wrong. 

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 I agree.  It's wrong.  And then people cry, "I'm hungry.  I'm on food stamps and don't get enough to eat!"  If you're selling your food stamps you don't have the right to complain.

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 What if he was selling his card because he needed heat? I understand the anger at all the cheaters who use the system but the people I volunteer for make lot's of difficult choices like that especially during winters like this. I have way more anger for the people who take advantage of my seniors by giving them a fraction of what the cards are worth and pat themselves on the back about what a good deal they got.

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 An 80 year old man who qualifies for food stamps would also qualify for utility assistance.  I don't buy that excuse.  

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

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Southern_Belle wrote:

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I'm confused. I thought you used to card for your own food and gave him money.

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 I was confused too.  Because that's exactly how I took her post. 

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 I did not take her post that way.  I took her post that he tried to sell her his card, and INSTEAD, she bought him groceries and gave him money.  She let him keep his card.  But, he still ATTEMPTED fraud.  And I bet you that even after she bought him food and gave him money, he sold his card to someone else. 

 

And BTW - the comment VOR made about not caring about government waste is simply absurd.  I pretty much hate and resent just about everything the dumb ass people in the government do and I wish we could arrest them for embezzlement of taxpayer dollars. 

Tinydancer wrote:

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

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Tinydancer wrote:

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I can't see how saying all people who receive aid aren't checan r wrong...lol. We are disagreeing so you're saying only children disagree? Ok. Then I'm rubber you're glue...lol

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 Which is like trying to have a discussion about flu season and you saying we cant because there are healthy people too so somehow we cant talk about it.

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 I think that goes both ways. Why can't we also discuss the people who really need it? Oh yeah because then there wouldn't be enough drama...lol

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 I am not sure what there is to talk about when someone goes on food stamps honestly.  They tell the truth, qualify, and receive their benefits.  What's there to discuss with that situation?  That they needed them?  Apparently they did or they wouldn't get them.  If they're using them honestly what more needs to be discussed?  There are a lot of people that get food stamps honestly every day.  Kudos to them.  Why do we need to lecture the honest people?  We don't.

And again, like LL said, fraud is fraud no matter where it takes place.  It's all wrong.

Tiny, you seem to be the only one that is saying ALL people view food stamp recipients as scum. The majority of us here have said that most people are honest but the few bad apples really make everyone look bad.

I'm still not sure what needs to be discussed about people who receive food stamps honestly. They got them honestly. End of story. Do we need to lecture them? No. Why? Because they're honest. They are using the system as it is designed. So what is there to discuss? That's like saying, I studied for my final exam and made an A. Please discuss. Everyone just says Um, isn't that how it's supposed to work? Nothing to discuss there!

Who is bashing the people who need it? Tell me. I see no one. And if you can't agree that selling your food stamp card for cash is wrong no matter what then that's on you.

As LL says there are charities everywhere. They are all over. There is help for those who need it. He doesn't HAVE to sell his card. That is his choice. And you act like I have no knowledge of the system. I put myself through college on the welfare system. I got it all, a welfare check, food stamps, subsidized housing. You name it. There are always people/agencies to help. I never said living on the system is easy. But is it supposed to be? Why is living on they system supposed to be a walk in the park? I'm not getting that.

lilyofcourse wrote:

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There is only so much charity before it runs out.

It is easy to sit in judgement in a warm house with a full belly.

A mile in another's shoes and all that.

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 I have been in those shoes.  So don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about.