TOTALLY GEEKED!

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:

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Oh, and the whole salvation thing would be much more impressive if God hadn't, you know. . . CREATED DAMNATION.
He is literally saving you lot from the punishment he would deal out. But yes, so generous.

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It's called free choice for a reason. You can choose to be damned or choose to be saved.

Man created his own damnation with the fall of Adam and Eve. Man was free of damnation before the fall. See how that worked? 

just Czech wrote:

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Lawyerlady wrote:

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Pigs do not have opposable thumbs. Monkeys do.

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Raccoons have opposable thumbs and lots of people eat raccoons.  

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 I do not.

Tinydancer wrote:

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Nothing anyone can say will make me believe any less and nothing I can say will make others believe any more. God made me aware of the truth. No person had that power so I usually just pray that God will find everyone at some point in their life and I always hope it's long before their deathbed. Even though I believe God will know their hearts at the end they've been missing the greatest friend they could have had if they could put all their problems in his hands.

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 That was well-said, TD.

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:

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You know, my whole issue with Christianity stems from the concept of a God that created life for no other reason than to worship him.
I mean, really? If a mother said she had kids so that she would have someone to worship her we would think she was nuts.
It's insane. And yes, I reject the notion that humanity only exists to worship a jealous God that would so test and torment his creations.

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I like you Dona!

flan 

lilyofcourse wrote:

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I want to know when not liking some thing or not agreeing became fear and hate.

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  Because that is modern day bullying disguised as PC and while simultaneously browbeating someone while playing a Victim.  It is a brilliant strategy really. 

WYSIWYG wrote:

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"And it really saddens me when people can't see God's love." - Lawyerlady

Sadder to me is when Christians use God's word to try and beat that love into people. (not saying you do it, Lawyerlady, just that quote of yours fit what I was thinking perfectly).

Teach by example. Show the way by forgiveness, not by oppression. Explain when asked, don't preach when undesired.

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 But this is part of the problem.  You immediately react with negativity.  If I say something good about God, you knee jerk to something bad. 

And when is the last time some random Christian came up to you and started preaching at you?  And yet, somehow, it's ok to start discussions about how Christians are hateful homophobes because of their beliefs. 

It seems everything is ok to discuss whether wanted or not except God. 

Are bakers going around hunting down homosexuals to point at and say "I won't bake you a wedding cake!"  No, but some homosexuals are singling out Christians. 

Mellow Momma wrote:

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But here is the problem as I see it.

I have been to several Subway restaurants owned by Muslims who were right there making the sandwiches. And when I ordered a ham sandwich, and a turkey sandwich with bacon, they made it for me, and I paid them and no one had a religious hissy fit.

I have been to a fabric store owned by Hassidic Jews in NYC. And when I wanted to purchase a cloth of mixed materials, they sold it to me and I paid them and no one had a religious hissy fit.

I have been to Mexican restaurants owned by Catholics with crucifixes on the wall and a Mary statue on the register. And on a Friday in the middle of Lent I ordered a beeft enchilada. And they made it for me and I paid for it and no one had a religious hissy fit.

So I think the bakers who won't bake the cake for the homosexual wedding are doing themselves, their business and their God a HUGE disservice.

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 I don't disagree with you, and I have VERY conflicting feelings about this.  Churches have a different set of laws than public businesses.  The bakery is not a church. If their town/city/state has any discrimination laws concerning homosexuality, then they MUST follow the law and serve.

Lawyerlady wrote:

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Mellow Momma wrote:

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But here is the problem as I see it.

I have been to several Subway restaurants owned by Muslims who were right there making the sandwiches. And when I ordered a ham sandwich, and a turkey sandwich with bacon, they made it for me, and I paid them and no one had a religious hissy fit.

I have been to a fabric store owned by Hassidic Jews in NYC. And when I wanted to purchase a cloth of mixed materials, they sold it to me and I paid them and no one had a religious hissy fit.

I have been to Mexican restaurants owned by Catholics with crucifixes on the wall and a Mary statue on the register. And on a Friday in the middle of Lent I ordered a beeft enchilada. And they made it for me and I paid for it and no one had a religious hissy fit.

So I think the bakers who won't bake the cake for the homosexual wedding are doing themselves, their business and their God a HUGE disservice.

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 Or all the others are doing a great disservice to their religion or their religion only demands THEY not eat it or wear it.  But, if you have one more devout than others, can you really tell the devout one they have to act like the others?  That their stronger beliefs are wrong because you disagree with them? 

But the real issue on that is not should they, but should they be MADE to.

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 Doesn't the baker's religion only demand that the baker not be homosexual ?

Mellow Momma wrote:

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But here is the problem as I see it.

I have been to several Subway restaurants owned by Muslims who were right there making the sandwiches. And when I ordered a ham sandwich, and a turkey sandwich with bacon, they made it for me, and I paid them and no one had a religious hissy fit.

I have been to a fabric store owned by Hassidic Jews in NYC. And when I wanted to purchase a cloth of mixed materials, they sold it to me and I paid them and no one had a religious hissy fit.

I have been to Mexican restaurants owned by Catholics with crucifixes on the wall and a Mary statue on the register. And on a Friday in the middle of Lent I ordered a beeft enchilada. And they made it for me and I paid for it and no one had a religious hissy fit.

So I think the bakers who won't bake the cake for the homosexual wedding are doing themselves, their business and their God a HUGE disservice.

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 For me, the difference is that the other religious folk you mentioned chose to do what you wanted. Were I in your shoes and they said no, citing religious reasons, I would simply ask for another associate to make my food, etc. Some religious folk also aren't as strict as others. Also, the opposite view is that other religious folk you mentioned were being hypocritical to their religion and the Christian was upholding their religion.

I strongly object to any religious person being forced to do something against their religion.

chef wrote:

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Mellow Momma wrote:

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But here is the problem as I see it.

I have been to several Subway restaurants owned by Muslims who were right there making the sandwiches. And when I ordered a ham sandwich, and a turkey sandwich with bacon, they made it for me, and I paid them and no one had a religious hissy fit.

I have been to a fabric store owned by Hassidic Jews in NYC. And when I wanted to purchase a cloth of mixed materials, they sold it to me and I paid them and no one had a religious hissy fit.

I have been to Mexican restaurants owned by Catholics with crucifixes on the wall and a Mary statue on the register. And on a Friday in the middle of Lent I ordered a beeft enchilada. And they made it for me and I paid for it and no one had a religious hissy fit.

So I think the bakers who won't bake the cake for the homosexual wedding are doing themselves, their business and their God a HUGE disservice.

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 For me, the difference is that the other religious folk you mentioned chose to do what you wanted. Were I in your shoes and they said no, citing religious reasons, I would simply ask for another associate to make my food, etc. Some religious folk also aren't as strict as others. Also, the opposite view is that other religious folk you mentioned were being hypocritical to their religion and the Christian was upholding their religion.

I strongly object to any religious person being forced to do something against their religion.

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Then don't open a public business.  There are laws dictating discrimination.  They aren't being "forced" to do anything.  They follow the laws or they shut down the business.   

burns07 wrote:

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Of course they can. There are anti-discrimination laws. And sexual orientation is a classification in many places.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

then the laws are wrong--lord, wish they'd never outlawed dueling

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It doesn't matter.  It's the law and saying that you don't like it doesn't exempt you from it... 

just Czech wrote:

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Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Both the Old and New Testament have passages saying exactly that. That should be enough.


(waiting for the devil to start screaming)

That was an "in general" reference.

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I don't disagree.  But biblically, we are to follow mans law. NO ONE is being forced to serve a gay person.  But if you DECIDE to open a bakery in a place where sexual orientation is a protected class, then you have to serve them.  Don't like it, then don't open a bakery.  There is your choice. 

Mellow Momma wrote:

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And if the baker thinks homosexuality is a sin, then she had better not bake for any other person who sins. If she does, it's discrimination and has nothing to do with her religion.

If she bakes a cake for one bratty 16 year old who is nasty to her mother in the shop...she has no leg to stand on. One sin isn't worse than any other.

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 Everybody sins - that's not the proper comparison.  And she has no standing to refuse to bake say, a birthday cake, for a homosexual - I agree COMPLETELY that would be discrimination. But for a specific event that celebrates entering into a lifetime of sin?  A better comparison would be if she won't bake a cake for a same-sex wedding, she better not bake cakes for divorce celebrations or for 2nd marrige weddings unless they can show annulment papers.

Mellow Momma wrote:

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just Czech wrote:

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Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Both the Old and New Testament have passages saying exactly that. That should be enough.


(waiting for the devil to start screaming)

That was an "in general" reference.

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 There are lots of other sins though. Adultery is a sin. Taking the Lord's name in vain is a sin. Not honoring your father and mother is a sin. Why is homosexuality the ONE sin the baker chooses to take a stand on? If she cites her religion as the reason she won't bake the cake, then she needs to follow her religion all the time. Not pick and choose which sins she doesn't like the most. That's called discrimination. 

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That's a fair point.  What if someone is getting remarried?  Remarriages are not recognized in many churches.