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Pope: Death Penalty Represents 'Failure'

Posted: 03/20/2015 3:48 pm EDT Updated: 03/20/2015 9:59 pm EDT

pin_icon_onhover.pngPOPE FRANCIS
Pope Francis waves to faithful on March 18, 2015 upon his arrival on St. Peter's square at the Vatican to lead his weekly general audience. AFP PHOTO /VINCENZO PINTO (Photo credit should read VINCENZO PINTO/AFP/Getty Images) | VINCENZO PINTO via Getty Images
                                     
 
 
 

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis says nothing can justify the use of the death penalty and there is no "right" way to humanely kill another person.

 

Francis outlined the Catholic church's opposition to capital punishment in a letter to the International Commission against the Death Penalty, a group of former government officials, jurists and others who had an audience with him at the Vatican Friday.

 

The pope wrote that the principle of legitimate personal defense isn't adequate justification to execute someone. "When the death penalty is applied, it is not for a current act of aggression, but rather for an act committed in the past."

 

"Nowadays the death penalty is inadmissible, no matter how serious the crime committed," Francis declared. He was building on church teaching, including pronouncements during St. John Paul II's papacy, that modern prison systems make executions unnecessary.

 

Capital punishment "does not render justice to the victims, but rather fosters vengeance," Francis added.

 

"For the rule of law, the death penalty represents a failure, as it obliges the state to kill in the name of justice," Francis told the anti-death penalty advocates.

 

While he didn't mention the United States by name, Francis cited debates about which method should be used to carry out executions. "There is discussion in some quarters about the method of killing, as if it were possible to find ways of 'getting it right,'" the pope said.

 

"But there is no humane way of killing another person," Francis concluded.

 

In previous comments, Francis denounced life imprisonment as unjustifiable punishment. In his remarks Friday, he called life terms a "sort of covert death penalty," since it "deprives detainees not only of their freedom, but also of hope."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/20/pope-death-penalty_n_6912026.html?cps=gravity_2677_4912689748148837816

 



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Ok. He doen'st want the death penalty and he doesn't want life in prison. Yeah.

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So we send all the murderers to the Vatican?

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I think it's an interesting discussion to have. I go back and forth on the death penalty.

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What does he think we should do with them if we cant lock them up forever and we can't kill them?

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NAOW wrote:

What does he think we should do with them if we cant lock them up forever and we can't kill them?


 Well, I think his POV is that everybody should be evaluated to see if they can be rehabilitated.  Although personally I do thinks life in prison can be a just sentence. 

In general I think the US has a problem with locking people up for too long (I'm not talking murder cases).  Our prison population and the prison for profit system is out of control and it's worth thinking about alternatives for some types of inmates.  Especially non violent offenders.



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NAOW wrote:

What does he think we should do with them if we cant lock them up forever and we can't kill them?


 I do think we are locking people up way too long.  I would like to see other options.  Like instead of years in jail, you get flogged in the public square with 10 lashes or have your head in the stockades or something like that.  Why not?  I think it would be far more humane to be whipped or beaten up a bit and then go on with your life hopefully, having learned your lesson.  It was what they used to do.  It's far more humane in many ways than rotting in jail for years on end for more minor crimes.



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Bonny22Pye wrote:

I think it's an interesting discussion to have. I go back and forth on the death penalty.


I think there are people who have perpetrated such evil that they absolutely should be extinguished from the human race.  Viscious, viscous criminals who have inflicted great suffering, torture and death on others.  They should be executed.  I would have no problem pulling the trigger on some of these perps. 



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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
NAOW wrote:

What does he think we should do with them if we cant lock them up forever and we can't kill them?


 I do think we are locking people up way too long.  I would like to see other options.  Like instead of years in jail, you get flogged in the public square with 10 lashes or have your head in the stockades or something like that.  Why not?  I think it would be far more humane to be whipped or beaten up a bit and then go on with your life hopefully, having learned your lesson.  It was what they used to do.  It's far more humane in many ways than rotting in jail for years on end for more minor crimes.


 I don't agree with whipping, but I wish we made more use of work camps for certain offenses.  They could be out digging fire breaks, etc.



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Bonny22Pye wrote:
NAOW wrote:

What does he think we should do with them if we cant lock them up forever and we can't kill them?


 Well, I think his POV is that everybody should be evaluated to see if they can be rehabilitated.  Although personally I do thinks life in prison can be a just sentence. 

In general I think the US has a problem with locking people up for too long (I'm not talking murder cases).  Our prison population and the prison for profit system is out of control and it's worth thinking about alternatives for some types of inmates.  Especially non violent offenders.


They can pray to God before they are executed and ask forgiveness.   ANd, being forgiven doesn't mean you don't still suffer the consequences of the actions you have chosen. 



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Bonny22Pye wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
NAOW wrote:

What does he think we should do with them if we cant lock them up forever and we can't kill them?


 I do think we are locking people up way too long.  I would like to see other options.  Like instead of years in jail, you get flogged in the public square with 10 lashes or have your head in the stockades or something like that.  Why not?  I think it would be far more humane to be whipped or beaten up a bit and then go on with your life hopefully, having learned your lesson.  It was what they used to do.  It's far more humane in many ways than rotting in jail for years on end for more minor crimes.


 I don't agree with whipping, but I wish we made more use of work camps for certain offenses.  They could be out digging fire breaks, etc.


Well, that's a great point too.  ANd, work camps would instill pride in them versus sitting on their arses in jail being useless.  Hard work is a great rehabilitator. 



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The sentences for everything need overhauled. You get a longer sentence for robbery than for rape. That's wrong. Long sentences for drug crimes are stupid - the time would be better spent in rehab. The guidelines need to be looked at again.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Bonny22Pye wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
NAOW wrote:

What does he think we should do with them if we cant lock them up forever and we can't kill them?


 I do think we are locking people up way too long.  I would like to see other options.  Like instead of years in jail, you get flogged in the public square with 10 lashes or have your head in the stockades or something like that.  Why not?  I think it would be far more humane to be whipped or beaten up a bit and then go on with your life hopefully, having learned your lesson.  It was what they used to do.  It's far more humane in many ways than rotting in jail for years on end for more minor crimes.


 I don't agree with whipping, but I wish we made more use of work camps for certain offenses.  They could be out digging fire breaks, etc.


Well, that's a great point too.  ANd, work camps would instill pride in them versus sitting on their arses in jail being useless.  Hard work is a great rehabilitator. 


 And can provide a skill to use on the outside.  Convicts should also get the option of reducing their sentence by being guinea pigs for science.  Sold a bunch of drugs and got a 10 year sentence?  Knock some time off by seeing if this new drug works.  



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I think making them WORK would be the best approach. Clean the streets. Dig ditches. Break rocks, etc.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I think making them WORK would be the best approach. Clean the streets. Dig ditches. Break rocks, etc.


 I've never understood why they aren't working on farms instead of illegal immigrants



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Bonny22Pye wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I think making them WORK would be the best approach. Clean the streets. Dig ditches. Break rocks, etc.


 I've never understood why they aren't working on farms instead of illegal immigrants


They can "do the jobs that unimprisoned Americans won't do"! 



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I think I have a unique perspective on the prison system.

Yes. There are sentences that are not what we see as right.

A good judge will look at the whole person when sentencing.

I do feel the death penalty is appropriate in most of the cases. I also think the years and years of appeals is ridiculous.

And the benefits of prison is ridiculous too.

Why are death row inmates getting education and life saving medical care?

Can criminals be rehabilitated? I think some can. I also think if the punishment were more serious for first offenses and those were followed up with rehab efforts, it would be more effective in the long run.



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Some people deserve No chance at "rehabilitation". No. Their crimes were so heinous that they deserve nothing and should absolutely never have the opportunity to see the light of day again. For others, yes, I do think there should be a Rehab type track for drug related crimes, etc.

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Mandatory sentences mean judges cannot look at the whole person. They are bound by the law to sentence certain terms.

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My Uncle is in prison for murdering his girlfriend. I also had a good friend from high school get a ridiculous sentence for a series of stupid things. Things that most kids have done, but just didn't get caught - fighting, underage drinking, etc.

His life was ruined by a tough sentence judge and he ended up dying in prison from a fight. It was horrible. He could have easily been given a work camp type of punishment and he most likely would have turned out fine.

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I struggle a bit with the death penelty. I do believe that it should be an option and utilized. However, I honestly don't know if I could be on a jury and vote to put someone to death. I just can't wrap my brain around the internal struggle of making that decision.

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Divine Geek wrote:

I struggle a bit with the death penelty. I do believe that it should be an option and utilized. However, I honestly don't know if I could be on a jury and vote to put someone to death. I just can't wrap my brain around the internal struggle of making that decision.


 DG, I'm with you & Bonny on this one.

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There are some people who are pure evil. And their crimes are atrocious and unfathomable. But I don't believe in the death penalty. Our justice system should be about punishment not revenge - and it's a fine line.

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On principle, I'm not a death penalty advocate. I believe that society should be protected from killers, so they should at least be locked up for life. But I don't generally believe in killing them. It's not logical to kill someone to prove that it's not right to kill.

However, I do object to all the taxpayer resources it takes to keep a prisoner for life. So I don't see any easy answer to this.

The longer, harder solution is to make society less violent so we'll have fewer criminals. Good luck with that.



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There are evil people that will never be rehabilitated and need to be taken off the earth - serial killers, for example. For them, I firmly believe in the death penalty.

However, the grandma that ran her grandchild to death? No. That is not worthy of the death penalty. Killing needs to be intentional to be worthy of the death penalty.

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I wouldn't have a problem with the more violent and vicious rapes having the death penalty. Especially those involving kids.

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well, the Pope's entitled to his opinion--the main thing about the death penalty is that it's permanent--the offender will never hurt anyone again--in that regard, for some offenders, it is the best option

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I'm for the death penalty in cases like LL describes. I don't think it has anything to do with vengeance. Its more like 'putting the rabid dog down.' Its sad that it has to come to that, but there's no chance of rehabilitation and the crime was too horrific.

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People are not rabid dogs though. And killing is wrong - even state sponsored killing. I can't get behind spending all that money (it's more expensive to sentence someone to death than to life in prison) and also taking a life to send a message that taking a life is wrong. The death penalty is not a deterrent to crime. And sending someone to prison with no possibility of parole is a pretty hefty punishment.

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Mellow Momma wrote:

People are not rabid dogs though. And killing is wrong - even state sponsored killing. I can't get behind spending all that money (it's more expensive to sentence someone to death than to life in prison) and also taking a life to send a message that taking a life is wrong. The death penalty is not a deterrent to crime. And sending someone to prison with no possibility of parole is a pretty hefty punishment.


 If that's true, then I'll keep my stance against the death penalty.

Especially because the system does not always work, and innocent people have been executed in the past.  I think it's less probable now with DNA evidence, but it has happened. Money buys good lawyers, and poor folks with very bad legal representation don't always get a fair verdict.



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The legal fees involved in all the appeals (most cases get court appointed lawyers so the taxpayers are paying for both the prosecutor AND the defense attorney) make it more expensive than life in prison.

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And...it costs an avg of $90,000 a year more to house someone on death row than in the general population.

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Mellow Momma wrote:

People are not rabid dogs though. And killing is wrong - even state sponsored killing. I can't get behind spending all that money (it's more expensive to sentence someone to death than to life in prison) and also taking a life to send a message that taking a life is wrong. The death penalty is not a deterrent to crime. And sending someone to prison with no possibility of parole is a pretty hefty punishment.


 That's true, but these people are actually worse IMO. A rabid dog is diseased and can't help it. A person chooses to commit heinous crimes against other people.



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Have you ever seen one of the prison documentary series? I watch Lockup. Most of the men who have life in prison without the possibility of parole are miserable and wish they could die. Seems to me that's a worse punishment than just killing them. Forcing them to live a long life incarcerated seems to punish them much much more.

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Mellow Momma wrote:

Have you ever seen one of the prison documentary series? I watch Lockup. Most of the men who have life in prison without the possibility of parole are miserable and wish they could die. Seems to me that's a worse punishment than just killing them. Forcing them to live a long life incarcerated seems to punish them much much more.


 I'm fine with them being locked up for life too. As long as they are not back on the streets putting everyone else at risk.



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Shorter appeals process.

No wasting tax money on education for the inmates on death row.

No life saving medical care.

No counseling.

No therapy.

Just basic 3 squares and a cot.

That would cut a lot of the cost of keeping an inmate. 

 



-- Edited by lilyofcourse on Wednesday 25th of March 2015 01:18:57 PM

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Bonny22Pye wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I think making them WORK would be the best approach. Clean the streets. Dig ditches. Break rocks, etc.


 I've never understood why they aren't working on farms instead of illegal immigrants


 What do you have against farmers?  What makes you think a farmer would want a bunch of criminals on his property and around his family?  What makes you think criminals would do a good job?

 

Farmers hire illegals because, unlike most homegrown Americans--they will actually work. 



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huskerbb wrote:
Bonny22Pye wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I think making them WORK would be the best approach. Clean the streets. Dig ditches. Break rocks, etc.


 I've never understood why they aren't working on farms instead of illegal immigrants


 What do you have against farmers?  What makes you think a farmer would want a bunch of criminals on his property and around his family?  What makes you think criminals would do a good job?

 

Farmers hire illegals because, unlike most homegrown Americans--they will actually work. 


 I think she meant one of those work farms run but the evil prison Warden like in the movies not actual family farms.



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Tinydancer wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Bonny22Pye wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I think making them WORK would be the best approach. Clean the streets. Dig ditches. Break rocks, etc.


 I've never understood why they aren't working on farms instead of illegal immigrants


 What do you have against farmers?  What makes you think a farmer would want a bunch of criminals on his property and around his family?  What makes you think criminals would do a good job?

 

Farmers hire illegals because, unlike most homegrown Americans--they will actually work. 


 I think she meant one of those work farms run but the evil prison Warden like in the movies not actual family farms.


 Actually I meant real farms.  Non violent offenders could be used and supervised.  Farmers could get free labor.  Probably not practical at all, but it would be nice if it could work.



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huskerbb wrote:
Bonny22Pye wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I think making them WORK would be the best approach. Clean the streets. Dig ditches. Break rocks, etc.


 I've never understood why they aren't working on farms instead of illegal immigrants


 What do you have against farmers?  What makes you think a farmer would want a bunch of criminals on his property and around his family?  What makes you think criminals would do a good job?

 

Farmers hire illegals because, unlike most homegrown Americans--they will actually work. 


 How do you know farmers wouldn't hire them?  If the price is right and the work gets done, they might welcome it.



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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Bonny22Pye wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

I think making them WORK would be the best approach. Clean the streets. Dig ditches. Break rocks, etc.


 I've never understood why they aren't working on farms instead of illegal immigrants


 What do you have against farmers?  What makes you think a farmer would want a bunch of criminals on his property and around his family?  What makes you think criminals would do a good job?

 

Farmers hire illegals because, unlike most homegrown Americans--they will actually work. 


 How do you know farmers wouldn't hire them?  If the price is right and the work gets done, they might welcome it.


 Because why would farmers want criminals in their business any more than a bank, a grocery store, a factory, or a fast food joint?  Why single out farmers?  If it's such a good idea for criminals to have work--let those other businesses hire them. 



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Other businesses do hire them. A friend of ours owns a multi-state roofing company. They regularly hire felons. He says they are the hardest workers he has becsuse they need the work and it's decent pay. Plus it's outside, and a lot of those guys haven't been outside in so long, they love it. He gets a referral from the prison for people they think would be good workers and that's who he hires. No experience needed.

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Mellow Momma wrote:

Other businesses do hire them. A friend of ours owns a multi-state roofing company. They regularly hire felons. He says they are the hardest workers he has becsuse they need the work and it's decent pay. Plus it's outside, and a lot of those guys haven't been outside in so long, they love it. He gets a referral from the prison for people they think would be good workers and that's who he hires. No experience needed.


People who have been previously convicted of felonies and have served their time--or people currently in prison? Huge difference.  



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