TOTALLY GEEKED!

burns07 wrote:

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I'vI've contemplated joining a church ot even enrolling them in sunday school, but I'm unwilling to lie to them as my parents did to me and im not sure they're at an age where they could navigate the waters of being respectful of the beliefs of others while being honest about mine.
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your parents didn't lie to you, they had faith in something greater than themselves--evidently something you lack

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 If she joins an organized religion WITHOUT believing, THEN she IS lying.

flan

VetteGirl wrote:

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elphaba wrote:

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I think the op was among the least offensive perspectives on atheism I've read online, but that's admittedly not a very high bar. :)

I was raised catholic, but I'd say that I've been an atheist since birth. I went through all the childhood sacrements, but it was purely going through the motions for me, and for my parents as well I presume. It wasn't until I was in my twenties that I actually understood that people actually believed the bible was literal... I'd always assumed everyone paid it lipservice but that it was seen only as a set of parables and guidelines to live your life. I was shocked when I first spoke with an acquaintance who believed in the biblical origin story, but it offered me a great perspective on how others view the world.
I personally classify myself as a bit of a reluctant atheist; I'd love to believe there was a kindhearted caretaker for our world, or in life after death, but life has taught me that I'm just not wired that way. I'd like to believe in karma or some other system that would provide rewards to those who do good in the world and justice for those who don't, but experience has taught me that isn't the case. I try to be a good person because I believe its my responsibility to our society; and I frankly feel better about myself if I truly believe I'm kind, fair and generous, and im teaching my children to be great people.
I struggle with how to raise my kids outside the structure of the church with which I was raised; I think that there is value in understanding the judeochristian origins of our society and that some of the christian stories I was taught as a child teach important life lessons. I'vI've contemplated joining a church ot even enrolling them in sunday school, but I'm unwilling to lie to them as my parents did to me and im not sure they're at an age where they could navigate the waters of being respectful of the beliefs of others while being honest about mine.

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 I would love your opinion on how it is even mildly offensive? I'm not trying to be a smart ass I'm genuinely curious because I didn't think there was anything offensive about it and I showed my atheist brother and he thought it was pretty cool.

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 The presumption that an atheist views their life as having no greater meaning or purpose. I believe lives have substantial meaning and purpose; I just believe that each individual defines that purpose for themself, and that it isn't defined by a higher power.

lilyofcourse wrote:

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If a person is to make an informed decision, don't they need all the information?

That would include going to church, studying the Bible and learning about God too.

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 Well, I've already said i attended church until well into my teens.  I attended sunday school (catechism) for all that time as well. I've always been fascinated with religion, and spent a lot of my twenties reading books about religions and spirituality from a variety of perspectives. I like to challenge my own beliefs, which is a big part of why I joined this board, where the vast majority of the posters have a very different set of beliefs. In addition to that, I live in a society that is dominated by christian belief and philosophy. Even without my particular background, I'd need to be living under a rock to not have an understanding of the Christian God.

I don't really understand why you would presume that someone who doesn't believe doesn't have all the information. IME, non-believers have typically done a substantial amount of sole searching to come to where they are willing to buck the standard within their community and 'out' themselves as a non believer. 

elphaba wrote:

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burns07 wrote:

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I'vI've contemplated joining a church ot eed exhexpectat things arect theyrolling them in sunday school, but I'm unwilling to lie to them as my parents did to me and im not sure they're at an age where they could navigate the waters of being respectful of the beliefs of others while being honest about mine.
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your parents didn't lie to you, they had faith in something greater than themselves--evidently something you lack

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 I wasn't aware you'd met my parents.

My parents took us to church because it was an expectation  in the community where we were raised. Church attendance was seen as part of good parenting. They brought us to church and sunday school, said all the appropriate things and raised us with all the sacrements. When I stopped attending at age 16, the gig was up and the whole family stopped attending. Since they've been empty nesters, even the Easter and Christmas services aren't of interest, unless they happen to be visiting family and friends where the expectation of church attendance exists.  They've admitted that they raised us in the church to meet expectations but say things 'are different now'.

 

You point out my lack of faith as though you're insulting me... my lack of faith is just the way I'm made and I don't see it as a negative any more than I see my blue eyes as a negative...  couldn't change it if I tried; it just is. 

 

 

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 You are a very welcome breath of fresh air!

flan

elphaba wrote:

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burns07 wrote:

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My parents took us to church because it was an expectation in the community where we were raised. Church attendance was seen as part of good parenting.
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so they did it for you, not for themselves--perhaps they hoped it would be beneficial or revelatory to YOU--regardless of your experience, if you are of the opinion that life is about seeking some " harmony of desires / expectations " without accepting the truth that none of this happened by accident, by pure chance--you're going to have one helluva time in this life whether you find faith or not

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 I never said they did it "to me". They lied, with good intentions. It was 'what was done' at the time. I don't hold it against them, but i'm making different decisions with my kids. My point in bringing it up was simply to correct your assumption that they held great faith.

 

With respect to the rest of your comment, I have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Where did "harmony of desires/expectations" from? I think we build our own path. Some things that happen are consequences of our actions, others are  pure chance, but how we deal with them is what defines our life. 

If believing in God/Jesus/the Bible/Allah/karma/whatever works for you, great! it doesn't work for me, and that is actually okay too. I really don't understand why you're so invested in me having a different opinion.

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 Because IF you are right, then they are wrong...

flan

burns07 wrote:

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Is the comment re: insecurity directed solely at Flan, at both of us or at all atheists?
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flan, of course



regards your remarks, would presume your parents ( like my parents, most other parents ) wanted ( and want ) what's best for you--you are the future, for your family, for our culture--to say that they lied to you about something as significant as faith is a rather broad indictment of them--would rather believe better of them ( as tried to state ) and believe better of my own than to state something like that publicly--my opinion, of course, but consider public accusations like that to be dishonorable to parents in general and to yours in particular

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 My parents absolutely were doingg what they felt was best at the time. The facts in evidence however indicate that the were lying / overstating their commitment to the religion they were raising us in. I really don't see how stating that is any more offensive than acknowledging that we didn't wear seat belts as kids. Times were different, the made the best decision with the information available... how do you see that as insulting to my parents? is the 'accusation' you're concerned about the lying or the lack of faith in the first place?

Lawyerlady wrote:

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Some parents who don't believe still send their kids to church because a) they want the kid to learn so they can decide for themselves, and b) they understand that church provides a solid foundation in morality.

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 I know. That was presumably the logic behind my parents community pressure and their decision to go with it.  And I was just speaking with a co-worker about her husband decisions to take their daughter to lent services for the same reason. 

I think it can be a reasonable decision, it's just not one I'm willing to make, as I see the benefits as relatively minor (imo) and insufficient to outweigh my concerns about having to either lie to my kids about what I believe our potentially put them in an awkward position of defending my lack of faith.

burns07 wrote:

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well, began attending church as a child ( as per my mother's faith and the social norms of the time ) and can't say that I ever had any negative experiences with the process ( and attended well into my mid-thirties )--it was partly about faith, partly about fellowship, partly about learning--as to my own personal epiphany, occurred high in the mountains, when I was truly alone in the wilderness--each to his / her own in that regard--have had a few others since--what you believe is your business, of course, but personally believe that the Almighty speaks to us all if we would just listen--and whoever posted about why a merciful God would allow such suffering, such terror, such evil in this world, have wondered the same myself--but guess it is not for me to know, but for me to believe just the same

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God "allows" suffering because the suffering is brought on by the choices of free will.  To not allow it to happen would mean that we don't have free will. 

And a question for you, how many people turn to God when their lives are wonderful and hunky dorey and perfect?   Some people just have to learn the hard way.  Like a kid that won't listen the 10,000 times you tell them not to jump on the bed, and they don't learn until they fall off and get hurt.

burns07 wrote:

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And a question for you, how many people turn to God when their lives are wonderful and hunky dorey and perfect?
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well, to answer your question, we give thanks everyday for the blessings we have--regards others, can't speak for them

when mentioning evil, am not talking about falling off the bed, making bad personal choices, etc.

am talking about people who are in this world that are purely evil--whose existence consists of deliberately harming others--and there are many of them--have dealt with quite a few face-to-face and seen the results of others' actions--to allow those sorts to live in this world and perpetrate their own special hate / madness / fury on innocents makes me question the why of it all

doesn't it you ?

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 Not really.   This may be a bit too philisophical for a Monday morning, but the existence of evil in the world is because we have free will and because we are all sinners.  Some people give into the influence of the devil over the influence of God, and many of them don't even know they are doing it.  But, without evil in the world, how would we know and understand the depth of good that exists?  How could we appreciate miracles?  Without evil to overcome, what need would people have for God?