TOTALLY GEEKED!

flan327 wrote:

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huskerbb wrote:

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flan327 wrote:

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Lawyerlady wrote:

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flan - you realize this could be you someday? If your husband gets dementia and your stepchildren decide you are not good for him?

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 Thanks, Sunshine.

Both my stepchildren love me.

flan

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 And his don't.  Thanks for proving our point.

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 What is so wrong with adult children having a say in the care of a parent?

WHY was the daughter awarded guardianship?

flan

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 Nothing IF the spouse is incapacitated, also.

flan327 wrote:

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Tinydancer wrote:

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I've posted the quote where he said he didn't have sex with her in the double room but they lied and told him they had it on film. That's when he said "then he must have". I've also posted the quote where the doctor said intimacy was GOOD for people with dementia. I guess I'm glad flan is not running the world because anything she finds distasteful is wrong and anything she agrees with is right whether that's true or not.

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 So the nursing home should have NO rules whatsoever?

Why did he throw her underwear away? Why did the staff support the daughter?

flan

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I haven't gotten all the way through this, so I don't know if this has already been addressed, but he didn't throw her underwear away. He tossed it in the laundry. Kind of a big difference if one is looking at actions to point to guilt... 

Ohfour wrote:

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Tinydancer wrote:

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flan327 wrote:

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Lawyerlady wrote:

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flan - you realize this could be you someday? If your husband gets dementia and your stepchildren decide you are not good for him?

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 Thanks, Sunshine.

Both my stepchildren love me.

flan

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 What if they change their minds?

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Exactly.  What if you have to put your husband in a home because you can't take care of him.  And they resent you for that.  It happens ALL THE TIME.  

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 I would do nothing without consulting them. His son is a psychologist, so he has likely dealt with the problem of aging parents before. He also lives 500 miles away.

flan

Oughttabeworking wrote:

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flan327 wrote:

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Tinydancer wrote:

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I've posted the quote where he said he didn't have sex with her in the double room but they lied and told him they had it on film. That's when he said "then he must have". I've also posted the quote where the doctor said intimacy was GOOD for people with dementia. I guess I'm glad flan is not running the world because anything she finds distasteful is wrong and anything she agrees with is right whether that's true or not.

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 So the nursing home should have NO rules whatsoever?

Why did he throw her underwear away? Why did the staff support the daughter?

flan

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I haven't gotten all the way through this, so I don't know if this has already been addressed, but he didn't throw her underwear away. He tossed it in the laundry. Kind of a big difference if one is looking at actions to point to guilt... 

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 Yes, I made that mistake.

flan

I would like for the Geeks to stand as witness that 1. should I get married again and 2. should I develop dementia, I am giving permission for my husband to have sex with me as often as he likes whether my kids approve or not.

Oughttabeworking wrote:

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I would like for the Geeks to stand as witness that 1. should I get married again and 2. should I develop dementia, I am giving permission for my husband to have sex with me as often as he likes whether my kids approve or not.

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 So noted.  You should put that in writing.

Ohfour wrote:

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Lawyerlady wrote:

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People ASSUME they will agree. They are very often wrong.

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Hell, most of the time, siblings don't even agree.  Throw in a step-parent and all hell breaks loose... 

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 Then I'll just dump him by the side of a deserted road & let him starve to death?

flan

flan327 wrote:

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Ohfour wrote:

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Lawyerlady wrote:

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People ASSUME they will agree. They are very often wrong.

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Hell, most of the time, siblings don't even agree.  Throw in a step-parent and all hell breaks loose... 

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 Then I'll just dump him by the side of a deserted road & let him starve to death?

flan

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No, the husband or wife gets to make the decisions.  Period.  The kids can voice their opinion, but the final decision gets to be made by the spouse if they aren't incapacitated. 

I think doing it in her room with a roommate there is kind of gross. Sorry, pulling the curtain? Nurses or other family or a chaplain or anybody could have been walking in at that time. But, it is his wife and calling it rape seems to be ridiculous.

flan327 wrote:

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

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I think doing it in her room with a roommate there is kind of gross. Sorry, pulling the curtain? Nurses or other family or a chaplain or anybody could have been walking in at that time. But, it is his wife and calling it rape seems to be ridiculous.

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 I think it's the fact that she could not give consent is what upsets her children.

And, for me, sex is about the emotional connection & that takes two people.

flan

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You don't know she "couldn't" do so. 

 

There were two people.   

On Monday, Mr. Yunek asked Dr. Brady if “Donna is happy to see Henry — hugs, smiles, they hold hands, they talk — would that indicate that she is in fact capable at that point of understanding the affection with Henry?” Dr. Brady said no, calling that a “primal response” not indicative of the ability to make informed decisions.

flan

flan327 wrote:

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On Monday, Mr. Yunek asked Dr. Brady if “Donna is happy to see Henry — hugs, smiles, they hold hands, they talk — would that indicate that she is in fact capable at that point of understanding the affection with Henry?” Dr. Brady said no, calling that a “primal response” not indicative of the ability to make informed decisions.

flan

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Exactly--which means he is some kind of quack not to be believed at all.   

flan327 wrote:

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huskerbb wrote:

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flan327 wrote:

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On Monday, Mr. Yunek asked Dr. Brady if “Donna is happy to see Henry — hugs, smiles, they hold hands, they talk — would that indicate that she is in fact capable at that point of understanding the affection with Henry?” Dr. Brady said no, calling that a “primal response” not indicative of the ability to make informed decisions.

flan

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Exactly--which means he is some kind of quack not to be believed at all.   

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 Thank you, Dr. husker!

flan

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You are welcome.  

I've seen dementia first hand.  The power of the human touch is powerful.  Even if they cannot articulate what they are thinking--doesn't mean it has no meaning to them.   

This is part and parcel of how we treat people with dementia. We don't see them as human. We treat them worse than animals. We simply house them without giving them a thought as they live out their last days on earth.

Daughters who probably rarely visited get to make decisions over a spouse who was there every day.

When my dad had dementia, the only time he ever had peace during the last few miserable months of his life was when my mother would sit beside him holding his hand or putting her arms around him. If she left the room even for a short time, he cried for her incessantly. He couldn't even say her name, anymore--he just called her "mom".

People with dementia aren't some type of living corpse that is to be put away--never to be seen or heard from, again. They are still humans--with some capacity to love and be loved, even if we can't understand why or how.

Saying that she can't consent to the most human of all acts--reduces her to less than human.

flan327 wrote:

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I'm going by the doctor's assessment in the OP.

flan

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Doctors aren't God.  And, No , I dont' have to agree with everything they want to dictate or decide.   When my mom was in her end days, she still enjoyed eating Little Debbie Cakes.  So, yeah,  I brought her some in and was resoundly scolded since she was diabetic.  Yes.  I know.  But, she was in the end stages of life.  Allow her to enjoy the few things she still enjoys.  

And, I don't always agree with doctors and neither should anyone blindly follow advice without first really considering what it means. 

huskerbb wrote:

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This is part and parcel of how we treat people with dementia. We don't see them as human. We treat them worse than animals. We simply house them without giving them a thought as they live out their last days on earth.

Daughters who probably rarely visited get to make decisions over a spouse who was there every day.

When my dad had dementia, the only time he ever had peace during the last few miserable months of his life was when my mother would sit beside him holding his hand or putting her arms around him. If she left the room even for a short time, he cried for her incessantly. He couldn't even say her name, anymore--he just called her "mom".

People with dementia aren't some type of living corpse that is to be put away--never to be seen or heard from, again. They are still humans--with some capacity to love and be loved, even if we can't understand why or how.

Saying that she can't consent to the most human of all acts--reduces her to less than human.

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 No, husker, it's just stating a fact.

She is in a vulnerable state. Period.

And I'm very sorry about your father, but your mother's action were comforting & not sexual.

flan

flan327 wrote:

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huskerbb wrote:

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This is part and parcel of how we treat people with dementia. We don't see them as human. We treat them worse than animals. We simply house them without giving them a thought as they live out their last days on earth.

Daughters who probably rarely visited get to make decisions over a spouse who was there every day.

When my dad had dementia, the only time he ever had peace during the last few miserable months of his life was when my mother would sit beside him holding his hand or putting her arms around him. If she left the room even for a short time, he cried for her incessantly. He couldn't even say her name, anymore--he just called her "mom".

People with dementia aren't some type of living corpse that is to be put away--never to be seen or heard from, again. They are still humans--with some capacity to love and be loved, even if we can't understand why or how.

Saying that she can't consent to the most human of all acts--reduces her to less than human.

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 No, husker, it's just stating a fact.

She is in a vulnerable state. Period.

And I'm very sorry about your father, but your mother's action were comforting & not sexual.

flan

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It is NOT "stating a fact".  You have no idea what that woman knows or does not--and neither does the doctor.  It is a GUESS, at best.

As to your last bit of nonsense--so what?  Why can't sex be a part of it?  Just because you think sex between old people is "icky"?   

Well, you just can't "solve" it by a private room. You have to pay extra for a private room and oftentimes there aren't any available.

And, yeah, it is kind of icky. Nobody wants to see or hear that. I don't think you should expect a roommate to be subjected to that. That is completely unfair to the roommate who is paying for that room too.

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

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And, yeah, it is kind of icky. Nobody wants to see or hear that. I don't think you should expect a roommate to be subjected to that. That is completely unfair to the roommate who is paying for that room too.

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Did you ever live in a college dorm with room mates? 

Well, if you are drunk and your husband sleeps with you, I don't think that is rape.

flan327 wrote:

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Actually this seems similar to the discussions we've had about consent & being drunk.

flan

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True. Like, if my GF and I had been having sex 4 to 12 times a week, and one time she's drunk (or we're both drunk), is that a crime? 

I think possibly, once consent is freely (or eagerly) given, it can be implied to continue until withdrawn.

(flame suit on)

flan327 wrote:

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huskerbb wrote:

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

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I am bothered by the fact that he just decided to have sex in the middle of a nursing home with a roommate behind a curtain. That is just off.

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 It's hard to keep track of the nonsense that flan and a couple of others are spouting.  First, they don't want her to be having sex, at all, because sex between old people is "icky".

Next, they make a big issue out of the roommate--which could be solved by a private room--but points to the fact that they really don't give a crap about the sex issue, at all. 

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 husker, I'll still be enjoying sex when I'm 80.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE AGE. She doesn't know what she is doing. That, to me, is taking advantage.

flan

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BS.  You don't know that she doesn't know what she is doing, at all. 

 

Again, what is the best predictor of future behavior?  It's past behavior.  They had a loving marriage, including sex, up until the daughters got involved.  What changed?  The wife's condition?  NO.  It didn't magically change one day to the next, or even over the course of several months to any large degree. 

The ONLY thing that changed was the involvement of her daughters. 

As far as when you are 80, if people like you get their way, it won't be legal for you to have sex.   

ed11563 wrote:

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flan327 wrote:

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Actually this seems similar to the discussions we've had about consent & being drunk.

flan

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True. Like, if my GF and I had been having sex 4 to 12 times a week, and one time she's drunk (or we're both drunk), is that a crime? 

I think possibly, once consent is freely (or eagerly) given, it can be implied to continue until withdrawn.

(flame suit on)

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This. 

 

Yes, marital rape happens--but NOT in otherwise loving relationships.  The most common instances involved those who are headed for divorce--maybe even have the papers drawn up.  After that, it's usually found in abusive relationships.

 

NEITHER situation applies here. 

 

Again, we can't say for certain that she did consent--but NEITHER can we say she did not.  The default position has to be the status of their relationship and their past behavior.  There is ZERO reason to conclude that she either didn't consent--or wouldn't.