TOTALLY GEEKED!

huskerbb · Guru

RE: Sex, Dementia and a Husband on Trial at Age 78

huskerbb · Guru

Heck, let's talk about the mentally disabled that mellow mama was so big on discussing earlier.

One of the BIGGEST factors in deciding whether or not to allow the mentally disabled to have sex is the status of the relationship. It's probably at least as big as any doctor's perceived notion of just how disabled they are.

If it is a fairly long term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship--or if they want to get married--their petition is usually granted.

What could be more evidence of the status of a relationship than a MARRIAGE, and not only a marriage, but a marriage that, by all accounts, was a good and happy one.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I am bothered by the fact that he just decided to have sex in the middle of a nursing home with a roommate behind a curtain. That is just off.
It's hard to keep track of the nonsense that flan and a couple of others are spouting. First, they don't want her to be having sex, at all, because sex between old people is "icky".
Next, they make a big issue out of the roommate--which could be solved by a private room--but points to the fact that they really don't give a crap about the sex issue, at all.
husker, I'll still be enjoying sex when I'm 80.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE AGE. She doesn't know what she is doing. That, to me, is taking advantage.
flan
BS. You don't know that she doesn't know what she is doing, at all.

Again, what is the best predictor of future behavior? It's past behavior. They had a loving marriage, including sex, up until the daughters got involved. What changed? The wife's condition? NO. It didn't magically change one day to the next, or even over the course of several months to any large degree.
The ONLY thing that changed was the involvement of her daughters.
As far as when you are 80, if people like you get their way, it won't be legal for you to have sex.
So you can quote where I said that?
flan
Throughout this entire article. MANY people are going to have some degree of dementia by that age. Even those still living at home--yet you want to prevent them from having sex.

She was worse than "some degree."

There is no question that Donna Lou Rayhons had severe Alzheimer’s.

In the days before being placed in a nursing home in Garner, Iowa, last year, Mrs. Rayhons, 78, could not recall her daughters’ names or how to eat a hamburger. One day, she tried to wash her hands in the toilet of a restaurant bathroom.

flan

ed11563 · Guru

flan327 wrote:

She was worse than "some degree."
There is no question that Donna Lou Rayhons had severe Alzheimer’s.
In the days before being placed in a nursing home in Garner, Iowa, last year, Mrs. Rayhons, 78, could not recall her daughters’ names or how to eat a hamburger. One day, she tried to wash her hands in the toilet of a restaurant bathroom.
flan

Maybe --- sex is now her greatest pleasure in life. Should anyone take that away from her?

She's not getting pregnant, she's unlikely to get and STD from her husband. Where's the downside?

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I am bothered by the fact that he just decided to have sex in the middle of a nursing home with a roommate behind a curtain. That is just off.
It's hard to keep track of the nonsense that flan and a couple of others are spouting. First, they don't want her to be having sex, at all, because sex between old people is "icky".
Next, they make a big issue out of the roommate--which could be solved by a private room--but points to the fact that they really don't give a crap about the sex issue, at all.
husker, I'll still be enjoying sex when I'm 80.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE AGE. She doesn't know what she is doing. That, to me, is taking advantage.
flan
BS. You don't know that she doesn't know what she is doing, at all.

Again, what is the best predictor of future behavior? It's past behavior. They had a loving marriage, including sex, up until the daughters got involved. What changed? The wife's condition? NO. It didn't magically change one day to the next, or even over the course of several months to any large degree.
The ONLY thing that changed was the involvement of her daughters.
As far as when you are 80, if people like you get their way, it won't be legal for you to have sex.
So you can quote where I said that?
flan
Throughout this entire article. MANY people are going to have some degree of dementia by that age. Even those still living at home--yet you want to prevent them from having sex.

She was worse than "some degree."
There is no question that Donna Lou Rayhons had severe Alzheimer’s.
In the days before being placed in a nursing home in Garner, Iowa, last year, Mrs. Rayhons, 78, could not recall her daughters’ names or how to eat a hamburger. One day, she tried to wash her hands in the toilet of a restaurant bathroom.
flan

So what? Who gets to decide what degree someone has to be? Will it be you at that point? NO. Even if you are competent, should every old person get drug into court if they want to have sex just to prove they are mentally fit?

That's a RIDICULOUS proposition.

huskerbb · Guru

ed11563 wrote:
flan327 wrote:

She was worse than "some degree."
There is no question that Donna Lou Rayhons had severe Alzheimer’s.
In the days before being placed in a nursing home in Garner, Iowa, last year, Mrs. Rayhons, 78, could not recall her daughters’ names or how to eat a hamburger. One day, she tried to wash her hands in the toilet of a restaurant bathroom.
flan
Maybe --- sex is now her greatest pleasure in life. Should anyone take that away from her?
She's not getting pregnant, she's unlikely to get and STD from her husband. Where's the downside?

No kidding. Who are these people who want to take away a basic human right--and to be in favor of that, means that you think they are no longer human.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

husker, for you, no sex after 60.

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
flan327 wrote:

She was worse than "some degree."
There is no question that Donna Lou Rayhons had severe Alzheimer’s.
In the days before being placed in a nursing home in Garner, Iowa, last year, Mrs. Rayhons, 78, could not recall her daughters’ names or how to eat a hamburger. One day, she tried to wash her hands in the toilet of a restaurant bathroom.
flan
Maybe --- sex is now her greatest pleasure in life. Should anyone take that away from her?
She's not getting pregnant, she's unlikely to get and STD from her husband. Where's the downside?
No kidding. Who are these people who want to take away a basic human right--and to be in favor of that, means that you think they are no longer human.

A nursing home is NOT the same as your own home.

flan

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
flan327 wrote:

She was worse than "some degree."
There is no question that Donna Lou Rayhons had severe Alzheimer’s.
In the days before being placed in a nursing home in Garner, Iowa, last year, Mrs. Rayhons, 78, could not recall her daughters’ names or how to eat a hamburger. One day, she tried to wash her hands in the toilet of a restaurant bathroom.
flan
Maybe --- sex is now her greatest pleasure in life. Should anyone take that away from her?
She's not getting pregnant, she's unlikely to get and STD from her husband. Where's the downside?
No kidding. Who are these people who want to take away a basic human right--and to be in favor of that, means that you think they are no longer human.
A nursing home is NOT the same as your own home.
flan

Now you are switching arguments, again.

What possible difference does the location of the bedroom make on her ability to give consent? ABSOLUTELY NONE. Therefore, you know your prior argument is ridiculous and that he should just pay for a private room and it would be fine.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
flan327 wrote:

She was worse than "some degree."
There is no question that Donna Lou Rayhons had severe Alzheimer’s.
In the days before being placed in a nursing home in Garner, Iowa, last year, Mrs. Rayhons, 78, could not recall her daughters’ names or how to eat a hamburger. One day, she tried to wash her hands in the toilet of a restaurant bathroom.
flan
Maybe --- sex is now her greatest pleasure in life. Should anyone take that away from her?
She's not getting pregnant, she's unlikely to get and STD from her husband. Where's the downside?
No kidding. Who are these people who want to take away a basic human right--and to be in favor of that, means that you think they are no longer human.
A nursing home is NOT the same as your own home.
flan
Now you are switching arguments, again.

What possible difference does the location of the bedroom make on her ability to give consent? ABSOLUTELY NONE. Therefore, you know your prior argument is ridiculous and that he should just pay for a private room and it would be fine.

No to both. She can't give consent & the nursing home is required to protect her.

flan

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
flan327 wrote:

She was worse than "some degree."
There is no question that Donna Lou Rayhons had severe Alzheimer’s.
In the days before being placed in a nursing home in Garner, Iowa, last year, Mrs. Rayhons, 78, could not recall her daughters’ names or how to eat a hamburger. One day, she tried to wash her hands in the toilet of a restaurant bathroom.
flan
Maybe --- sex is now her greatest pleasure in life. Should anyone take that away from her?
She's not getting pregnant, she's unlikely to get and STD from her husband. Where's the downside?
No kidding. Who are these people who want to take away a basic human right--and to be in favor of that, means that you think they are no longer human.
A nursing home is NOT the same as your own home.
flan
Now you are switching arguments, again.

What possible difference does the location of the bedroom make on her ability to give consent? ABSOLUTELY NONE. Therefore, you know your prior argument is ridiculous and that he should just pay for a private room and it would be fine.
No to both. She can't give consent & the nursing home is required to protect her.
flan

Protect her from what? There is NOTHING in this situation to protect her from--other than maybe her daughters.

You don't know that she can't, or even that she didn't give consent.

ed11563 · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
flan327 wrote:

She was worse than "some degree."
There is no question that Donna Lou Rayhons had severe Alzheimer’s.
In the days before being placed in a nursing home in Garner, Iowa, last year, Mrs. Rayhons, 78, could not recall her daughters’ names or how to eat a hamburger. One day, she tried to wash her hands in the toilet of a restaurant bathroom.
flan
Maybe --- sex is now her greatest pleasure in life. Should anyone take that away from her?
She's not getting pregnant, she's unlikely to get and STD from her husband. Where's the downside?
No kidding. Who are these people who want to take away a basic human right--and to be in favor of that, means that you think they are no longer human.
A nursing home is NOT the same as your own home.
flan

It kind of IS. That's where she lives now.

I lived in a fraternity house with a room mate (Steve and, occasionally Carol) and occasionally Sandi. That's where we lived.

huskerbb · Guru

Good point. When you move to a nursing home--that IS your home.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Mom worked the last 15 years in a nursing home. My aunt has worked in one her entire adult life.

Both have said the exact same thing.

If they want to, the facility must provide them the ability with in reason.

A room, privacy. Whatever.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

So if u want to have sex in the backseat of your car in the mall parking lot than that is ok? A nursing home is not a private home.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I would like to think when any of us are that age we are still able to enjoy being with our SO.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
I would like to think when any of us are that age we are still able to enjoy being with our SO.

As long as we recognize them...yes.

flan

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
I would like to think when any of us are that age we are still able to enjoy being with our SO.

As long as we recognize them...yes.
flan

A. You don't know that she doesn't.

B. You don't know that you can't enjoy being with someone even if you don't recognize them.

What, you are saying that when we can't tell if someone can recognize their family, anymore, that their family should just abandon them?

That is ABSURD.

-- Edited by huskerbb on Tuesday 14th of April 2015 09:10:23 PM

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
I would like to think when any of us are that age we are still able to enjoy being with our SO.

As long as we recognize them...yes.
flan

A. You don't know that she doesn't.

B. You don't know that you can't enjoy being with someone even if you don't recognize them.

What, you are saying that when we can't tell if someone can recognize their family, anymore, that their family should just abandon them?

That is ABSURD.

-- Edited by huskerbb on Tuesday 14th of April 2015 09:10:23 PM

Sure, husker, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying...NOT.

flan

p.s. And no sex for you after 55!!! evileye

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
I would like to think when any of us are that age we are still able to enjoy being with our SO.

As long as we recognize them...yes.
flan

A. You don't know that she doesn't.

B. You don't know that you can't enjoy being with someone even if you don't recognize them.

What, you are saying that when we can't tell if someone can recognize their family, anymore, that their family should just abandon them?

That is ABSURD.

-- Edited by huskerbb on Tuesday 14th of April 2015 09:10:23 PM
Sure, husker, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying...NOT.
flan
p.s. And no sex for you after 55!!!

It is exactly what you are saying. You are saying that if they can't recognize them, they can't get any enjoyment out of being with them. That being the case, there is no reason to visit them. Your arguments are wholly ridiculous.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

husker, don't make me cut you off at 51!

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

ed11563 wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Actually this seems similar to the discussions we've had about consent & being drunk.

flan
True. Like, if my GF and I had been having sex 4 to 12 times a week, and one time she's drunk (or we're both drunk), is that a crime?
I think possibly, once consent is freely (or eagerly) given, it can be implied to continue until withdrawn.
(flame suit on)

Yep. Especially between a loving married couple where the ONLY change is the dementia.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.

huskerbb · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Actually this seems similar to the discussions we've had about consent & being drunk.

flan
True. Like, if my GF and I had been having sex 4 to 12 times a week, and one time she's drunk (or we're both drunk), is that a crime?
I think possibly, once consent is freely (or eagerly) given, it can be implied to continue until withdrawn.
(flame suit on)
Yep. Especially between a loving married couple where the ONLY change is the dementia.

But that isn't the only change. That isn't even the change in question. Her condition didn't deteriorate to this state overnight, or even over the course of several months. It took many months--even years--and NO ONE had an issue with them having sex.

The ONLY change in this situation is the involvement of the daughters.

huskerbb · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.

And it's the same ones who are avid supporters of gays being able to have sex in churches and whatever else--but don't want husbands and wives to have sex anywhere, apparently.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.

Do you understand what dementia is?

Because THAT is the point of the OP.

flan

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.
Do you understand what dementia is?
Because THAT is the point of the OP.
flan

Yes, I do. Much more than you do.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.
And it's the same ones who are avid supporters of gays being able to have sex in churches and whatever else--but don't want husbands and wives to have sex anywhere, apparently.

Quote me, babe...

flan

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.
And it's the same ones who are avid supporters of gays being able to have sex in churches and whatever else--but don't want husbands and wives to have sex anywhere, apparently.
Quote me, babe...
flan

I'm paraphrasing. You know you are a hypocrite, already.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.
And it's the same ones who are avid supporters of gays being able to have sex in churches and whatever else--but don't want husbands and wives to have sex anywhere, apparently.
Quote me, babe...
flan
I'm paraphrasing. You know you are a hypocrite, already.

Because I disagree with you?

flan

huskerbb · Guru

flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
flan327 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.
And it's the same ones who are avid supporters of gays being able to have sex in churches and whatever else--but don't want husbands and wives to have sex anywhere, apparently.
Quote me, babe...
flan
I'm paraphrasing. You know you are a hypocrite, already.
Because I disagree with you?
flan

No, because you are all for "rights" when it suits you--and completely against them when it doesn't.

just Czech · Give Me Grand's!

The case is pure bullsh1t.
When the time arrives that a married couple can not have sex because someone else says so, our freedoms are lost. This is a married couple for crying out loud.
My grandparents had sex well into their late 80's and grandma had Alzheimer's. Is someone saying they shouldn't have?
Nuts!
One of the most ridiculous cases I have ever heard.
And I worked, as a nurse, in a nursing home for years. This was never an issue as long as they were married to each other. We just closed the damn door!

huskerbb · Guru

Well, hopefully that ends the nonsense.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

I don't think this is a clear black and white issue.
While in general, I am sure most couples that have to deal with this don't have a problem, I do think there needs to be some assurence that there is no abuse, especially when one party is so severely compromised mentally.
As long as the wife seems happy about it, leave them be, but if she finds sex confusing or uncomfortable or distressing, it is probably better to abstain.
Arresting the husband was probably overkill regardless.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.
Do you understand what dementia is?
Because THAT is the point of the OP.
flan

Yes, I do. Apparently better than you do.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.
And it's the same ones who are avid supporters of gays being able to have sex in churches and whatever else--but don't want husbands and wives to have sex anywhere, apparently.

I am all for married couples doing what they want to do. But, if my mom was the Roommate, I don't think she should have to be in a room listening to her roommate having sex. That doesn't make me "against" married sex.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.
And it's the same ones who are avid supporters of gays being able to have sex in churches and whatever else--but don't want husbands and wives to have sex anywhere, apparently.
I am all for married couples doing what they want to do. But, if my mom was the Roommate, I don't think she should have to be in a room listening to her roommate having sex. That doesn't make me "against" married sex.

I think you are overly concerned about this. The roommate didn't complain - and in a nursing home, it's quite possible the roommate is deaf or out of it, too.

Tinydancer · Guru

It hasn't even been proven that he had sex with her in the double room but that gets conveniently forgotten. Some people are overly concerned with other peoples sex lives. Whether they're gay or old it's nobodies business but their own. Maybe if this couple was gay you'd have a different answer because we know you should never judge a gay couple.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lawyerlady wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And what I find hilarious is the same people that argue that teens should be able to have sex without parental interference are some of the same ones arguing against a grown woman having sex with her husband.
And it's the same ones who are avid supporters of gays being able to have sex in churches and whatever else--but don't want husbands and wives to have sex anywhere, apparently.
I am all for married couples doing what they want to do. But, if my mom was the Roommate, I don't think she should have to be in a room listening to her roommate having sex. That doesn't make me "against" married sex.
I think you are overly concerned about this. The roommate didn't complain - and in a nursing home, it's quite possible the roommate is deaf or out of it, too.

The roommate DID hear:

That evening, her roommate reported that Mr. Rayhons drew the curtain around his wife’s bed and that sexual noises were heard.

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I don't understand why anyone would think this was wrong.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

lilyofcourse wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would think this was wrong.

Me, neither.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

I just mentioned this story to DH.

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lawyerlady wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would think this was wrong.

Me, neither.

Because IF she doesn't recognize him and can't consent, he's basically masturbating.

flan

burns07 · Guru

Because IF she doesn't recognize him and can't consent, he's basically masturbating.
________________________________________________________________

that's pretty damned presumptuous--regardless of where her mind may be, her body will still recognize his touch--rather primal in all of us

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

It's my opinion.

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

You don't know much about cognitive brain diseases. That's apparent.

The complete stimuli that comes along with intercourse can cause clarity.

All the neurons fire during sex.

It's actually good for the patient.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
You don't know much about cognitive brain diseases. That's apparent.

The complete stimuli that comes along with intercourse can cause clarity.

All the neurons fire during sex.

It's actually good for the patient.

Then WHY did the nursing home advise him NOT to have sex with her?

flan

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
You don't know much about cognitive brain diseases. That's apparent.

The complete stimuli that comes along with intercourse can cause clarity.

All the neurons fire during sex.

It's actually good for the patient.

Then WHY did the nursing home advise him NOT to have sex with her?
flan

Probably has more to do with liability. It is easy for an elderly person to hurt themself.

Or just plain ignorance.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I was advised not to engage in sex for while because of my heart.

There may be other things going on.

I don't know.

But they are old enough to make that choice.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

lilyofcourse wrote:
I was advised not to engage in sex for while because of my heart.

There may be other things going on.

I don't know.

But they are old enough to make that choice.

He is, but she isn't, because of the advanced dementia.

flan