TOTALLY GEEKED!

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

RE: Duggar Sex Scandal

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Mellow Momma wrote:
The counselling they got their son wasn't counselling, it was work on a construction site with a friend who read him bible verses afterwards. They believed that was counselling. So if they say they got the girls counselling, I am not apt to believe it was true psychological help.

They also sent him to one of those camps for kids with issues for 2 months. They did not just have him do construction work.

And counseling with the pastor.

chillepeppa · Regular

Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
NAOW wrote:
Did they not do anything to help their daughters??

(I stopped reading all of the articles, so I'm not sure what else has been said)
I think the girls were asleep. Would they even know if not told?
Seriously?! It's okay if they were asleep???
flan
That is not even what I said. BUT, if you are unaware what happened, how damaging is it to you? You don't have any memories of it.

That is what the date rape drug does too. Doesn't work out like that for those who try to use it for this purpose though...

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
NAOW wrote:
Did they not do anything to help their daughters??

(I stopped reading all of the articles, so I'm not sure what else has been said)
I think the girls were asleep. Would they even know if not told?
Seriously?! It's okay if they were asleep???
flan
That is not even what I said. BUT, if you are unaware what happened, how damaging is it to you? You don't have any memories of it.
That is what the date rape drug does too. Doesn't work out like that for those who try to use it for this purpose though...

Well, no - but that included sex. This didn't include any penetration. I just have to wonder how much they told them if they didn't know. Would YOU tell your 12 year old, or simply hope she never found out? If my kid didn't know - I would not tell her. EVER.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lawyerlady wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
The counselling they got their son wasn't counselling, it was work on a construction site with a friend who read him bible verses afterwards. They believed that was counselling. So if they say they got the girls counselling, I am not apt to believe it was true psychological help.
They also sent him to one of those camps for kids with issues for 2 months. They did not just have him do construction work.

And counseling with the pastor.

And with this guy:

InTouch reported that his father took Josh to an Arkansas state trooper who was a personal friend, who took no action other than a "very stern talk." That officer is now serving a 56-year term in prison for child pornography, the magazine reported, and no case was ever brought against Josh Duggar.

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

It was also done while they were awake.

flan

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
The counselling they got their son wasn't counselling, it was work on a construction site with a friend who read him bible verses afterwards. They believed that was counselling. So if they say they got the girls counselling, I am not apt to believe it was true psychological help.
They also sent him to one of those camps for kids with issues for 2 months. They did not just have him do construction work.

And counseling with the pastor.

And with this guy:
InTouch reported that his father took Josh to an Arkansas state trooper who was a personal friend, who took no action other than a "very stern talk." That officer is now serving a 56-year term in prison for child pornography, the magazine reported, and no case was ever brought against Josh Duggar.
flan

Yeah, that's a little scary. Actually take your kid to the cops, which had to be a very hard decision, only to have that cop do nothing and be arrested for child porn himself. It's a wonderful world we live in.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

This man says very well how I feel on the subject -

Ben Seewald’s father Michael posted an essay on his blog Monday, defending Josh Duggar, who last week admitted to sexually assaulting children, including his sisters, when he was a teen.

In a post titled “Grace Greater Than Our Sin,” Michael, who is the father-in-law of Josh’s sister Jessa Duggar, says while people shouldn’t “downplay the seriousness” of the molestation offenses, he is “rooting” for the “19 Kids And Counting” star. “I want to say to Josh, hang in there, the shame you feel is legitimate, yet Jesus took your shame as he was punished in your place,” he writes . “Rest in his forgiveness and grace. Remember that he gives you his righteousness as a covering for your shame.”

Michael reveals he was initially hesitant to make a public statement because “it pains me to see that they are now having to relive the nightmare that had been laid to rest well over a decade ago with Josh’s repentance and reformation,” but he decided to break his silence “to bring some context and reason to the bloodletting that many are engaging in and to come to the aid of our dear friends and family.”

Ben’s dad refrains from discussing the legal aspect of Duggar’s abusive actions, but “commends” his parents Jim Bob and Michelle for their handling of the situation. He writes:

“As it stands criminal charges were not brought against Josh but I believe that Josh’s parents acted in a way that godly parents should. They did not turn a blind eye, but earnestly sought help from the church, counselors, and eventually the police. Maybe they didn’t do it in a way that pleases everyone, but they acted decisively to confront the sin, to call a penitent son back from his errors, and to seek to aid the hurting victims. In the end Josh sought forgiveness from those he wronged, repented of his sins, and came to trust Christ as his Savior.”

Michael goes on to argue, “Some people act as if it was the Duggars’ responsibility to have made this sad episode in their family public knowledge. They are to be praised for not hiding this from the appropriate parties and eventually the police, but they owed it to no one else to publicize the sins of a minor child and the court agrees with that assessment, the judge now ordering that the police report be destroyed.”

He also addresses comments from critics who say Duggar committed his offenses because he was sexually repressed. Michael responds:

“They think that had he [had] access to sex education by Planned Parenthood, been allowed to watch edgy Hollywood films, been encouraged to experimentation with a girlfriend, or gotten free condoms from the local school nurse, then none of this would have happened. Right. The stupidity of some people is mind boggling. Fan the flames of youthful lust and you end up with what we have: unprecedented numbers of unwed mothers, millions of abortions, rampant STDs, and the unraveling of the fabric of our whole society. Josh didn’t sin because he was repressed, he sinned because like all of us he is a sinner.”

Michael further writes, “Here is a warning for everyone reading this, by condemning a repentant sinner you have placed yourself in the place of God.” But he also expresses concern for the violated parties, saying they “should not be lost in all of this,” and encourages victims of sexual abuse to speak up. “It is not your fault. No matter what the abuser may have said, you are not the one to blame,” writes Michael. “Do not keep silent if you are being abused, tell someone you trust, a parent, a teacher, a friend, anyone is better than silence.”

Towards the end, Ben’s father says, “I want to say that the Seewald family stands with the Duggar family in solidarity. We stand with the unnamed victims of these incidents. Our thoughts and prayers are for you.” And he tells Duggar, “Don’t be angry at the world for their hatred of you. Show them through your love for them that it is Jesus Christ that made all the difference in your life. I’m rooting for you.”

Michael Seewald isn’t the only one to come to Duggar’s defense. As Gossip Cop reported, Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee posted a statement of support on Facebook Friday, saying, “Good people make mistakes and do regrettable and even disgusting things.” Duggar’s parents also released a statement last week saying they were “shocked” by Josh’s “very bad mistakes,” but claimed God had forgiven his sins.

Meanwhile, Ben Seewald and Jessa Duggar are expecting their first child, which Gossip Cop reported last month. What do you think of his father’s comments on Josh Dugar’s sexual assaults?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

"... Josh didn’t sin because he was repressed, he sinned because like all of us he is a sinner.”

But not all teenage boys fondle their sisters.

flan

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

What is the end goal here? I think the end goal is that the victims have been helped and are able to move on. Apparently they have done that. Not everyone needs hours of counseling. And, people get counseling in many ways, they may have been counseled by ministers, etc. We don't really know what the victims may or may not have done. That is completely their business on how they wished to deal with it.

Point #2. We don't want the offender to offend again. No question. Apparently, that we know of, this has also been the case. I think we can agree as well that there is a difference between a teen boy feeling a girl and moving to penetration or more violent offense. However, we also know that more mild behavior often preceeds more aggressive behavior as well. But, since this DID come to light in their family and the family dealt with it and the victims and everyone else seems satisfied with the outcome. He also recently resigned from his job, so he is going to suffer that financial consequence. The statute of limitations is past to try the crime. So, now what else should be done, TODAY?

chillepeppa · Regular

Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
NAOW wrote:
Did they not do anything to help their daughters??

(I stopped reading all of the articles, so I'm not sure what else has been said)
I think the girls were asleep. Would they even know if not told?
Seriously?! It's okay if they were asleep???
flan
That is not even what I said. BUT, if you are unaware what happened, how damaging is it to you? You don't have any memories of it.
That is what the date rape drug does too. Doesn't work out like that for those who try to use it for this purpose though...
Well, no - but that included sex. This didn't include any penetration. I just have to wonder how much they told them if they didn't know. Would YOU tell your 12 year old, or simply hope she never found out? If my kid didn't know - I would not tell her. EVER.

The issue isn't penetration or lack there of. It's about being able to give or deny consent. Specially in the security of her home of all places.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

There are different levels of criminality. I think penetration is another level of that.

chillepeppa · Regular

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
There are different levels of criminality. I think penetration is another level of that.

Regardless, I still give or deny consent in both instances. Or at least the opportunity to tell them to sod off.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Minors can't give consent. The issue of consent is a Non Issue in this case.

chillepeppa · Regular

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Minors can't give consent. The issue of consent is a Non Issue in this case.

My consent issues stems from LL comment about them being asleep thus unaware and potentially unaffected. I doubt that if they were awake they would have been ok with it.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

It doesn't matter if they were OK or not OK with it. They can't consent even if they are OK with it, so not sure of your point?

chillepeppa · Regular

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
It doesn't matter if they were OK or not OK with it. They can't consent even if they are OK with it, so not sure of your point?

so the can't even say no?

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Huh? They can say yes or they can say no. But, either way, it isn't appropriate. Obviously.

chillepeppa · Regular

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Huh? They can say yes or they can say no. But, either way, it isn't appropriate. Obviously.

That is my issue. How could they say no when they were sleeping? The whole situation was inappropriate.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Of course it was.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

I don't think any said otherwise.

chillepeppa · Regular

can't remember saying anyone did

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Ok smile

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

chillepeppa wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Minors can't give consent. The issue of consent is a Non Issue in this case.
My consent issues stems from LL comment about them being asleep thus unaware and potentially unaffected. I doubt that if they were awake they would have been ok with it.

And no one said that was the case. But if they were not aware of it, why would you make them aware of it?

chillepeppa · Regular

Lawyerlady wrote:
chillepeppa wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Minors can't give consent. The issue of consent is a Non Issue in this case.
My consent issues stems from LL comment about them being asleep thus unaware and potentially unaffected. I doubt that if they were awake they would have been ok with it.
And no one said that was the case. But if they were not aware of it, why would you make them aware of it?

Not a question I can answer, actually. Depends on the circumstances. Who did it. How many others know. Who the girls are and what I think they might handle.

Thing is, I cannot imagine living in a house with this many direct family in it. Don't know how it is, specially with the oldest and the youngest having that much of an age difference. It's definitely not an experience I can begin to relate to, so whether they did the right thing by telling the girls that they were molested in their sleep, cannot say, but i would want to know myself. Specially if it's happening in my own house where I'm supposed to feel safest.

WYSIWYG · Guru

Nope...not Christian in any way - Ilumine

________________________

Unfortunately for the rest of us, "not Christian in anyway" is a way that enough self proclaimed Christians act that their actions give a bad image to to good and faithful followers.

I'm not thinking of just the Duggars here, but Westboro Baptist Church comes to mind, and others as well.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Just wondering . Where was the outrage by the Left over Lena Dunham molesting her sister?

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Just wondering . Where was the outrage by the Left over Lena Dunham molesting her sister?

No one cared.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Just wondering . Where was the outrage by the Left over Lena Dunham molesting her sister?
No one cared.

That's simply not true.

Abuse is abuse. Period.

flan

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

flan327 wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Just wondering . Where was the outrage by the Left over Lena Dunham molesting her sister?
No one cared.
That's simply not true.
Abuse is abuse. Period.
flan

I hope one day that whoever realized the names of the victims gets to suffer as much as they have now. And I really don't give a damn if that makes me a bad person. Every last one of those girls were victims. They didn't deserve that.

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Minors can't give consent. The issue of consent is a Non Issue in this case.

As I understand it, he was a minor, also.

Let's say they were not related--which is a whole nuther aspect of this.

But say for instance a 14 year old boy and a 13 year old girl have sexual contact. Is it abuse? Can he be charged?

Consent and willingness would absolutely play a part. They are BOTH minors. Who is to say who initiated what?

Unless there were some coercion, or there was a significant age difference--say more than 3 years--it would absolutely matter.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

He wasn't related to all the girls involved.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Y'all really need to read up on this.

flan

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

flan327 wrote:
Y'all really need to read up on this.

flan

What am I lacking? I have kept up with it. And I meant released. The victims names should not have been released.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Apparently JOSH is the victim, according to the Duggar reasoning.

flan

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

flan327 wrote:
Apparently JOSH is the victim, according to the Duggar reasoning.

flan

The Duggars never claimed that Josh was a victim. The only thing they said that even INFERS that is that those records were all supposed to be sealed and they were released. He was a minor. Those records should not have been let go to the public. I don't even like the Duggars but I think they handled this well. And I didn't hear them even once claim that Josh was a victim.

cadiver · Senior Member

huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Minors can't give consent. The issue of consent is a Non Issue in this case.
As I understand it, he was a minor, also.

Let's say they were not related--which is a whole nuther aspect of this.

But say for instance a 14 year old boy and a 13 year old girl have sexual contact. Is it abuse? Can he be charged?
Consent and willingness would absolutely play a part. They are BOTH minors. Who is to say who initiated what?
Unless there were some coercion, or there was a significant age difference--say more than 3 years--it would absolutely matter.

Many of the instances the girls were asleep. As for the age difference the youngest was 5 and sitting on his lap when he touched her.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Josh was wrong. He shouldn't have done it.

cadiver · Senior Member

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Apparently JOSH is the victim, according to the Duggar reasoning.

flan
The Duggars never claimed that Josh was a victim. The only thing they said that even INFERS that is that those records were all supposed to be sealed and they were released. He was a minor. Those records should not have been let go to the public. I don't even like the Duggars but I think they handled this well. And I didn't hear them even once claim that Josh was a victim.

I do not think they handled it well. He admitted to going into his sisters bedroom 4 to 5 times fondling them while they slept. Several months later they allow the other girl over and he fondled her on the couch while she slept. What were they doing to protect her.

huskerbb · Guru

cadiver wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Minors can't give consent. The issue of consent is a Non Issue in this case.
As I understand it, he was a minor, also.

Let's say they were not related--which is a whole nuther aspect of this.

But say for instance a 14 year old boy and a 13 year old girl have sexual contact. Is it abuse? Can he be charged?
Consent and willingness would absolutely play a part. They are BOTH minors. Who is to say who initiated what?
Unless there were some coercion, or there was a significant age difference--say more than 3 years--it would absolutely matter.
Many of the instances the girls were asleep. As for the age difference the youngest was 5 and sitting on his lap when he touched her.

Duh. I wasn't talking about this situation, specifically. I said "for instance".

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

cadiver wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Apparently JOSH is the victim, according to the Duggar reasoning.

flan
The Duggars never claimed that Josh was a victim. The only thing they said that even INFERS that is that those records were all supposed to be sealed and they were released. He was a minor. Those records should not have been let go to the public. I don't even like the Duggars but I think they handled this well. And I didn't hear them even once claim that Josh was a victim.
I do not think they handled it well. He admitted to going into his sisters bedroom 4 to 5 times fondling them while they slept. Several months later they allow the other girl over and he fondled her on the couch while she slept. What were they doing to protect her.

They thought it was over and done with. Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you were in that situation you would kick your son out of the house? If he said he only did it that one time would you believe him or send him away? They believed him as most NORMAL parents would. No parent just ASSUMES their child is a predator.

cadiver · Senior Member

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
cadiver wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Apparently JOSH is the victim, according to the Duggar reasoning.

flan
The Duggars never claimed that Josh was a victim. The only thing they said that even INFERS that is that those records were all supposed to be sealed and they were released. He was a minor. Those records should not have been let go to the public. I don't even like the Duggars but I think they handled this well. And I didn't hear them even once claim that Josh was a victim.
I do not think they handled it well. He admitted to going into his sisters bedroom 4 to 5 times fondling them while they slept. Several months later they allow the other girl over and he fondled her on the couch while she slept. What were they doing to protect her.
They thought it was over and done with. Are you honestly trying to tell me that if you were in that situation you would kick your son out of the house? If he said he only did it that one time would you believe him or send him away? They believed him as most NORMAL parents would. No parent just ASSUMES their child is a predator.

He said he did it 4 to 5 times. I would not let him have access to a girl sleeping on the couch. If that meant she could not come over so be it.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

It's really easy for us to sit here on the outside and judge. It's easy to say what we would do. One, it's so much different when you are actually going through it. Two, these weren't "normal" people in the sense that they have a very strict set of religious guidelines. I believe their naivete played into it.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Um, do you know how many NON Duggar families out there where someone in the family abuses a child? Do you realize how common it is? And do you also realize what the number one response to the abuse is? Overall, most parents don't want to admit it happened. People go all their lives feeling guilty because a parent KNEW but wouldn't admit they were being abused. The fact that the Duggars even had the guts to admit, address, and discuss it openly says a helluva lot about them.

This is a story because it's the DUGGARS and people hate them.

WYSIWYG · Guru

It's really easy for us to sit here on the outside and judge. It's easy to say what we would do. One, it's so much different when you are actually going through it. Two, these weren't "normal" people in the sense that they have a very strict set of religious guidelines. I believe their naivete played into it.
- Nobody Just Nobody

_______________________

I agree. Especially with the last sentence.

I also agree with the post that followed that one.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

What did the parents do to protect their daughters?

Nothing.

flan

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

I really don't know what people WANT. They did what most normal parents probably would do. They sent him out of the home for a while. They got counseling in the way they know how to get counseling. They took steps to protect their daughters. The daughters and the family including him now see to be leading healthy, productive lives. Can any of you say you would have immediately jumped to call the Police? We know what happens when Police are called. Then you are inviting the Govt into your home and God only knows where that can lead. So, no, I can't say I would have called the Police and I doubt most of you would have for fondling. Sorry, but fondling is the not the SAME thing as rape and penetration, etc. Yes, if it was something more of that nature, then I would involve the Police.
As for saying they did "nothing" is patently false and people just want to find ways to bash a Goody Two Shoes type family.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

WYSIWYG wrote:
It's really easy for us to sit here on the outside and judge. It's easy to say what we would do. One, it's so much different when you are actually going through it. Two, these weren't "normal" people in the sense that they have a very strict set of religious guidelines. I believe their naivete played into it.
- Nobody Just Nobody

_______________________

I agree. Especially with the last sentence.

I also agree with the post that followed that one.

Well, they certainly are not naïve about sex! There's a lot of sex going on in that house, lol.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Here are few of the "nothings" they did flan:

Jim Bob and Michelle learned of son Josh's molestation secret in 2002

Four years later, they moved into their new 7,000sq ft Arkansas home

Custom-built house physically separates their boys from their sisters

Girls' and boys' bedrooms are located at opposite ends of second floor

Daughters' one is 'blocked' by parents' master suite, built in front of it

It is also only accessible via highly-visible catwalk over the living room

Duggars spoke of 'safeguards' in home during The Kelly File interview

But they did not mention house layout - as Daily Mail Online can reveal
'
Safeguards' include not allowing their daughters to sit on brothers' laps or play hide and seek with them - and banning boys from babysitting

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Here are few of the "nothings" they did flan:

Jim Bob and Michelle learned of son Josh's molestation secret in 2002

Four years later, they moved into their new 7,000sq ft Arkansas home

Custom-built house physically separates their boys from their sisters

Girls' and boys' bedrooms are located at opposite ends of second floor

Daughters' one is 'blocked' by parents' master suite, built in front of it

It is also only accessible via highly-visible catwalk over the living room

Duggars spoke of 'safeguards' in home during The Kelly File interview

But they did not mention house layout - as Daily Mail Online can reveal
'
Safeguards' include not allowing their daughters to sit on brothers' laps or play hide and seek with them - and banning boys from babysitting

So FOUR YEARS after the abuse, the sleeping situation changed...

I don't "hate" the Duggars. I've always felt there was something off about the family, especially Jim Bob, but so many people here defended them & I began to wonder. Any time you live your life in front of a TV camera, people are going to want to know more.

They got what they wanted.

flan