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Post Info TOPIC: I think they should lose this one.


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I think they should lose this one.
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religious-freedom-protester-1024x768.jpg

CREDIT: AP Photo/Bruce Smith

A protester who may also have strong views about ethics in video game journalism

Missouri state Rep. Paul Joseph Wieland (R) does not want his daughters’ health plan to cover birth control — even though two of those daughters are adults. So he and his wife sued the Obama administration. Though this lawsuit was rejected on jurisdictional grounds by a federal trial court, a panel of three appellate judges reinstated the suit on Monday. Should the Wielands ultimately prevail in their effort to deny birth control coverage to their daughters, the decision could have implications far beyond the Wieland family, potentially forcing insurance companies to maintain elaborate records to track many of their customers’ views on religion and sexual morality.

Wieland v. Department of Health and Human Services seeks to expand the Supreme Court’s decision in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, which allowed many private businesses to ignore federal rules requiring them to include birth control in their employee’s health plans if the business’ owners object to contraception on religious grounds. The Wielands claim that a similar rule should apply in their case. Because they claim that they “cannot provide, fund or in any way be a participant in the provision of health care coverage” that includes birth control “without violating their sincerely-held religious beliefs,” they argue that they should be given a special health plan that does not include contraceptive care.

On the surface, this argument has some appeal — at least if one accepts the legitimacy of Hobby Lobby. The Wielands are helped by the fact that Missouri did offer the special contraception-free plan they seek until 2013, when a court order instructed the state to stop offering this plan in order to comply with the Affordable Care Act. They can also point to Hobby Lobby itself, which established that religious objectors may wield those objections to diminish the rights of third parties. According to the Wielands’ attorney, the couple “stand[s] in the same shoes” as Hobby Lobby, and Hobby Lobby’s “employees are to Hobby Lobby what the daughters are to Paul and Teresa Wieland.”

Hobby Lobby, however, rested on the Court’s conclusion that the federal birth control rules at issue in that case did not use the “least restrictive means” of furthering the government’s interest in protecting women’s health. As the Justice Department explained in its arguments in Wieland, it’s not at all clear that the same thing is true in this case.

For one thing, it is a relatively simple administrative task for an insurance company to note that the plan that covers Hobby Lobby’s employees does not include birth control and to adjust premiums accordingly. It is much more difficult for insurers to keep track of the particular religious beliefs of every individual in their network of customers and adjust each plan according to those religious beliefs. And, despite the fact that Missouri used to offer a contraceptive-free plan, the legal rule that the Wielands seek could require insurers to track a large number of different religious objections.

As ThinkProgress previously explained, “[w]hen a vaccine became available for a common sexually transmitted disease . . . many people raised a religious objection to the vaccine on the grounds that it would reduce the potential consequences of sex and thus lead to greater promiscuity. So some parents could object to having to pay for insurance that covers this vaccine. Or they may object to paying for coverage for STD treatments generally, on the theory that the potential consequences of sex are even greater if a person who becomes infected with an STD must pay the full out of pocket costs for medical care or else go untreated.”

The Wielands’ legal theory, moreover, could stretch far beyond families led by parents who object to contraception.

[I]magine a plaintiff who doesn’t just object to their daughters having birth control — they object to anyone having birth control. The nature of health insurance is that all of an insurance plan’s participants pay into a pool of money than any other participants can draw money out of when they need medical care. So even if a particular plaintiff’s own insurance doesn’t cover contraception, they would still be paying into a pool of money that other people could draw upon to pay for coverage that the plaintiff might object to. Moreover, while the insurance company might try to solve this problem by “walling off” the plaintiff’s premiums so that they could not be spent on contraceptive care, this would impose additional administrative costs on the insurer, and money is fungible. The only truly reliable way to ensure that a given insurance customer’s premiums are not used in a way that helps some woman, somewhere in the country to obtain birth control is to forbid the insurance plan from offering contraceptive coverage to anyone.

That might be an acceptable outcome for Paul and Teresa Wieland, but it would be a truly extraordinary expansion of American religious liberty law. A law intended to give religious objectors personal exemptions to laws they oppose would instead permit those objectors to impose their beliefs on thousands — potentially even millions — of individuals who do not share those beliefs.

There are, however, some signs that the Supreme Court might find the Wielands’ arguments for expanding Hobby Lobby lacking. As Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in his Hobby Lobby concurrence, he may be less willing to side with religious objectors when it is “more difficult and expensive to accommodate a governmental program to countless religious claims based on an alleged statutory right of free exercise.” Given the burden the Wielands’ legal rule would impose upon insurers, there is at least some chance that Kennedy will reject their claim if it reaches the Supreme Court.



-- Edited by huskerbb on Tuesday 21st of July 2015 10:49:53 PM

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I just don't see this as the same as the Hobby Lobby case.

For one thing, Hobby Lobby is required to provide health insurance.

Individuals are NOT "required" to take their employer provided insurance and, more to the point, they are not required to actually buy contraception with it.

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I agree with hoping they lose this one.

I agree the Government shouldn't be allowed to force contraception on anyone, but if these citizens win wouldn't they be forcing "no contraception" on everyone? That's just as bad.

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Is the issue here that the girls are still on their health plan and their health plan offers birth control and they don't want it? If they are paying for the health coverage, they should be able to choose if their health coverage includes birth control. The grown women who are their daughters have the option of getting their own healthcare which includes birth control.

But no, they shouldn't get to decide for others. But they should have an OPTION as to what type of healthcare they themselves are purchasing.

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Options are fine. But the reality is that the more options, the higher the cost. That is just reality. It is far cheaper to administer some standard plans than if you start making some individual plan for everyone.

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I have a serious problem with requiring insurance companies ... or The Government ...

to collect data on individuals' religious beliefs.

 

My religion, and YOUR religion, is none of their damned business.

 

 



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Lawyerlady wrote:

Is the issue here that the girls are still on their health plan and their health plan offers birth control and they don't want it? If they are paying for the health coverage, they should be able to choose if their health coverage includes birth control. The grown women who are their daughters have the option of getting their own healthcare which includes birth control.

But no, they shouldn't get to decide for others. But they should have an OPTION as to what type of healthcare they themselves are purchasing.


 they do have the option--they can opt out of their employers plan.  But just as hobby lobby, as an employer, should be able to choose what coverage they offer here, so should these peoples' Employers.  Don't wantbthat coverage?  Buy your own insurance.



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huskerbb wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

Is the issue here that the girls are still on their health plan and their health plan offers birth control and they don't want it? If they are paying for the health coverage, they should be able to choose if their health coverage includes birth control. The grown women who are their daughters have the option of getting their own healthcare which includes birth control.

But no, they shouldn't get to decide for others. But they should have an OPTION as to what type of healthcare they themselves are purchasing.


 they do have the option--they can opt out of their employers plan.  But just as hobby lobby, as an employer, should be able to choose what coverage they offer here, so should these peoples' Employers.  Don't wantbthat coverage?  Buy your own insurance.


 I can't disagree with that.



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And tell me, are children AUTOMATICALLY allowed to remain on their parents' health plans with Obamacare, or is that an option for the parents. Can the parents take them off?

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I am on my parents insurance, and I know it covers birth control, but I buy my own birth control, without insurance, because I know my parents don't want to pay for it, or see it on the bill.
Easy peasy, everyone happy.
Sounds like a family discussion is in order, not a stupid lawsuit.

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Lawyerlady wrote:

And tell me, are children AUTOMATICALLY allowed to remain on their parents' health plans with Obamacare, or is that an option for the parents. Can the parents take them off?


 Not sure, I guess.  The parents have to fill out the forms, and they could not put their kids down--but if the kids sued to stay on, I'm not sure what would happen.  

 

They don't stay on automatically because one of ours is off, and the other one is going off soon--and he's only 21.



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At a certain age you have to tell the insurance company their age. I know we got DN on our insurance while she lived here. We only had her on it about nine months because she aged out. But it allowed her to get some things done she really needed. She got a birth control implant and glasses. I think she got some shots too.

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Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:

I am on my parents insurance, and I know it covers birth control, but I buy my own birth control, without insurance, because I know my parents don't want to pay for it, or see it on the bill.
Easy peasy, everyone happy.
Sounds like a family discussion is in order, not a stupid lawsuit.


 Your parents wouldn't see a thing. And since it's free, there is no bill and no explanation of benefits. That is, if you use the pill. DD's prescriptions and all other health insurance info goes to her apartment and is in her name. She is on our plan, but since she is over the age of 18, HIPPA applies and we cannot access anything about her health care without her permission. We never see a single thing. 



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That's weird. All of DN's stuff came to our house with DH's name on it. I don't know if it was because he is the person who provides the insurance?

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Mellow Momma wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:

I am on my parents insurance, and I know it covers birth control, but I buy my own birth control, without insurance, because I know my parents don't want to pay for it, or see it on the bill.
Easy peasy, everyone happy.
Sounds like a family discussion is in order, not a stupid lawsuit.


 Your parents wouldn't see a thing. And since it's free, there is no bill and no explanation of benefits. That is, if you use the pill. DD's prescriptions and all other health insurance info goes to her apartment and is in her name. She is on our plan, but since she is over the age of 18, HIPPA applies and we cannot access anything about her health care without her permission. We never see a single thing. 


Well, we do.  All of G's EOBs come to him.  That goes for doctor's visits, prescriptions, everything they do, we know about... 



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Lawyerlady wrote:

And tell me, are children AUTOMATICALLY allowed to remain on their parents' health plans with Obamacare, or is that an option for the parents. Can the parents take them off?


 The parents can take them off. 

The law permits them to stay on until age 26, it does not mandate that they stay on until then. So a parent can choose to remove the kid from their plan if the parent wanted to. 



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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

That's weird. All of DN's stuff came to our house with DH's name on it. I don't know if it was because he is the person who provides the insurance?


Exactly...same here... 



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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

That's weird. All of DN's stuff came to our house with DH's name on it. I don't know if it was because he is the person who provides the insurance?


 DH provides the insurance and all of DD's stuff goes to her in NYC. When you sign up for the insurance it asks what the address is of all the people on the insurance. We put her NYC address for her and all her stuff goes to her out there. We were told it's a HIPAA violation for it to come to us - since she is an adult we have no reason to know about her medical care unless she wants to tell us. 



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Mellow Momma wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

That's weird. All of DN's stuff came to our house with DH's name on it. I don't know if it was because he is the person who provides the insurance?


 DH provides the insurance and all of DD's stuff goes to her in NYC. When you sign up for the insurance it asks what the address is of all the people on the insurance. We put her NYC address for her and all her stuff goes to her out there. We were told it's a HIPAA violation for it to come to us - since she is an adult we have no reason to know about her medical care unless she wants to tell us. 


G's kids get the bills at their address.  All of the EOBs come to us though.  I asked a few people around here and they said the same thing.  It must be your insurance... 



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Ohfour wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

That's weird. All of DN's stuff came to our house with DH's name on it. I don't know if it was because he is the person who provides the insurance?


Exactly...same here... 


 Did you put the adult child's address as the same as yours? 

All I know is when we tried to call about getting a bill clarified for her, they told me they couldn't talk to me about it since she was an adult and that was the reason the EOMB's didn't come to our address. I was told HIPAA applied and we had no right to her medical info even though we paid for the insurance. 



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I just looked at our enrollment form. It doesn't ask for a different address. There is one address, with lines for dependents. Nothing about a separate address...

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Ohfour wrote:

I just looked at our enrollment form. It doesn't ask for a different address. There is one address, with lines for dependents. Nothing about a separate address...


 That's the difference. Our enrollment form has a separate line for each person's address. 



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Mellow Momma wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

I just looked at our enrollment form. It doesn't ask for a different address. There is one address, with lines for dependents. Nothing about a separate address...


 That's the difference. Our enrollment form has a separate line for each person's address. 


If it was a HIPAA violation, I would think that the insurance companies would mandate that.  I think you were told wrong... 



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Ohfour wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

I just looked at our enrollment form. It doesn't ask for a different address. There is one address, with lines for dependents. Nothing about a separate address...


 That's the difference. Our enrollment form has a separate line for each person's address. 


If it was a HIPAA violation, I would think that the insurance companies would mandate that.  I think you were told wrong... 


 Possibly. Everyone throws around words like that to sound important. Lol. It makes sense to me though. She is an adult and has the right to her privacy. Her insurance doesn't cost us anything extra since we insure her sister as well.



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Evidently, they don't want to cover birth control for their daughters. I hope they'll pony up when they have to pay a hospital bill for birth, and not expect insurance to cover it.

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weltschmerz wrote:

Evidently, they don't want to cover birth control for their daughters. I hope they'll pony up when they have to pay a hospital bill for birth, and not expect insurance to cover it.


 Why?  That's the personal responsibility thing.  The ADULT girls want to have sex - they can pay for their own birth control or the consequences.  Their CHOICE.  Parents do not have any responsiblity to provide birth control. 



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Mellow Momma wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

I just looked at our enrollment form. It doesn't ask for a different address. There is one address, with lines for dependents. Nothing about a separate address...


 That's the difference. Our enrollment form has a separate line for each person's address. 


If it was a HIPAA violation, I would think that the insurance companies would mandate that.  I think you were told wrong... 


 Possibly. Everyone throws around words like that to sound important. Lol. It makes sense to me though. She is an adult and has the right to her privacy. Her insurance doesn't cost us anything extra since we insure her sister as well.


I know, right?  We have a family plan and that includes everyone, no matter how many kids you have.  It's the same price.  Here's where we run into trouble:

(not real names, just an example)

My name is Sue.  Not Susan, but Sue.  My middle initial is P.  So I am Sue P. Smith.

G's daughter is Susan.  Her middle initial is also P.  So she is Susan P. Smith.

This wreaks havoc with our insurance companies.  When I went for an eye exam, my provider was denied payment because it had only been 3 months since my last exam.  No, it had been 3 months since SUSAN's last exam.  This has happened MULTIPLE times.  It's a pain in the arse...



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Lawyerlady wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

Evidently, they don't want to cover birth control for their daughters. I hope they'll pony up when they have to pay a hospital bill for birth, and not expect insurance to cover it.


 Why?  That's the personal responsibility thing.  The ADULT girls want to have sex - they can pay for their own birth control or the consequences.  Their CHOICE.  Parents do not have any responsiblity to provide birth control. 


WOW.  Why in God's name would you think the parents would be responsible for hospital bills? Canadian economics? 



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Why have insurance at all? it's the personal responsibility thing. Need a heart transplant? Pay for it yourself.

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Well, we got the bills but I do know that when we tried to talk to the billing about a bill they wouldn't let us discuss it with them. DN had to call them and give them permission to speak to them. She was trying to clarify a bill and they were only open the hours she worked so she couldn't spend an hour on the phone waiting to talk to someone and clear it up.

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weltschmerz wrote:

Why have insurance at all? it's the personal responsibility thing. Need a heart transplant? Pay for it yourself.


 That is so not a logical comparison.  BUT, the parents do not have to be paying for their ADULT children's health insurance at all.  The ADULTS can pay for it themselves. 

Please explain to me WHY you expect a parent to cover the insurance of adults?  Should they pay their rent, too?  How about their gas and food - should they continue to pay for that, too, even when the kids are grown? 



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Hey, I think medical insurance is a crappy idea all around. That being said, it's very poor parenting to want your daughters exposed to risks that your insurance is willing to pay for in the first place.
Seems like some folks are happy to pay for boner pills, but birth control? Their heads explode.

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weltschmerz wrote:

Hey, I think medical insurance is a crappy idea all around. That being said, it's very poor parenting to want your daughters exposed to risks that your insurance is willing to pay for in the first place.
Seems like some folks are happy to pay for boner pills, but birth control? Their heads explode.


They are adults.  Time to take some responsibility.  Don't like what mommy and daddy say, pay for your own insurance... 



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weltschmerz wrote:

Hey, I think medical insurance is a crappy idea all around. That being said, it's very poor parenting to want your daughters exposed to risks that your insurance is willing to pay for in the first place.
Seems like some folks are happy to pay for boner pills, but birth control? Their heads explode.


 That's not even part of this discussion and nobody has said a word about it.  Is that just a deflection from my question? 

They likely don't want their daughters exposed to risks - they probably taught them not to be sleeping around before marriage.  But, I know, abstinence is not actually a choice.  evileye  People should be able to fvck like rabbits at the expense of taxpayers and/or parents and anybody but themselves. no



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Abstinence worked so well for the Palin family. Four instances of out-of-wedlock pregnancies, but they promote abstinence. It's not realistic.

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weltschmerz wrote:

Abstinence worked so well for the Palin family. Four instances of out-of-wedlock pregnancies, but they promote abstinence. It's not realistic.


Bristol is just stupid - she has enough money to buy her own birth control. 

 

But what of the reality of expecting parents to continue to support their adult children?  That's pretty sad.



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Ohfour wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

I just looked at our enrollment form. It doesn't ask for a different address. There is one address, with lines for dependents. Nothing about a separate address...


 That's the difference. Our enrollment form has a separate line for each person's address. 


If it was a HIPAA violation, I would think that the insurance companies would mandate that.  I think you were told wrong... 


 Possibly. Everyone throws around words like that to sound important. Lol. It makes sense to me though. She is an adult and has the right to her privacy. Her insurance doesn't cost us anything extra since we insure her sister as well.


I know, right?  We have a family plan and that includes everyone, no matter how many kids you have.  It's the same price.  Here's where we run into trouble:

(not real names, just an example)

My name is Sue.  Not Susan, but Sue.  My middle initial is P.  So I am Sue P. Smith.

G's daughter is Susan.  Her middle initial is also P.  So she is Susan P. Smith.

This wreaks havoc with our insurance companies.  When I went for an eye exam, my provider was denied payment because it had only been 3 months since my last exam.  No, it had been 3 months since SUSAN's last exam.  This has happened MULTIPLE times.  It's a pain in the arse...


 Oh I feel your pain. I kept my maiden name and had to provide our marriage license last year to prove I "deserved" to be on DH's insurance. No problem - except that is at the county courthouse 800 miles away and they only give out the licenses to people who show up in person, no mailed requests. Good thing my mom lives there. 

Then there is DD. Her name is gender non-specific, think Pat.  Well the insurance companies always put her down as a male, every year. I mark female and they put her down as male. Imagine their surprise when my "male" needed birth control pills to control her heavy periods! They would not pay. I had to provide proof that she was female, and I also forwarded them a copy of the enrollment form that I kept where I marked her as female. Idiots. 



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weltschmerz wrote:

Abstinence worked so well for the Palin family. Four instances of out-of-wedlock pregnancies, but they promote abstinence. It's not realistic.


 Works quite well for some though so I don't see why promoting abstinence would be a bad thing. Unless you have no self control, then you just blame others for the lack of control.



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Tinydancer wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

Abstinence worked so well for the Palin family. Four instances of out-of-wedlock pregnancies, but they promote abstinence. It's not realistic.


 Works quite well for some though so I don't see why promoting abstinence would be a bad thing. Unless you have no self control, then you just blame others for the lack of control.


 And when you get pregnant, blame your parents for not buying your birth control.  It's always someone ELSE'S fault.



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You know what I find amazing? I actually know people that choose NOT to have sex so they don't get pregnant. Shocking, I know.

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Shocking I say!!!

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The states with the highest teen pregnancy rates all have one thing in common - they use abstinence only sex education. Abstinence only education does not work. It works for SOME people, but generally speaking it doesn't work.



-- Edited by Mellow Momma on Wednesday 22nd of July 2015 03:20:00 PM

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Lawyerlady wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

Abstinence worked so well for the Palin family. Four instances of out-of-wedlock pregnancies, but they promote abstinence. It's not realistic.


Bristol is just stupid - she has enough money to buy her own birth control. 

 

But what of the reality of expecting parents to continue to support their adult children?  That's pretty sad.


I said nothing of parents supporting their kids in perpetuity. However, if they're already on your insurance plan, and birth control is included, why the hell not?  



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Tinydancer wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

Abstinence worked so well for the Palin family. Four instances of out-of-wedlock pregnancies, but they promote abstinence. It's not realistic.


 Works quite well for some though so I don't see why promoting abstinence would be a bad thing. Unless you have no self control, then you just blame others for the lack of control.


I have no problem with people promoting / recommending abstinence.

 

I have a real problem with people who deny tweens and teens realistic information about birth control methods, people who insist that their female (and male) children MUST practice abstinence.

We have a name for parents like that: "Grandparents".

When my MIL had what passed for "the talk" with her daughter, her son had already been screwing her for years. Stupid.



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Mellow Momma wrote:

The states with the highest teen pregnancy rates all have one thing in common - they use abstinence only sex education. Abstinence only education does not work. It works for SOME people, but generally speaking it doesn't work.



-- Edited by Mellow Momma on Wednesday 22nd of July 2015 03:20:00 PM


 I agree it does not work across the board.  However, abstinence needs to be taught as the best option, with birth control as the back up.



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weltschmerz wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

Abstinence worked so well for the Palin family. Four instances of out-of-wedlock pregnancies, but they promote abstinence. It's not realistic.


Bristol is just stupid - she has enough money to buy her own birth control. 

 

But what of the reality of expecting parents to continue to support their adult children?  That's pretty sad.


I said nothing of parents supporting their kids in perpetuity. However, if they're already on your insurance plan, and birth control is included, why the hell not?  


 Because it is against their religion.  And the ONLY control they have over that is not paying for it.   People should not have to contribute to other people's sins.  Whether you agree with it or not.  You can think religion is the stupidest thing on the planet, but you have no right to disallow others to actually live according to their beliefs and teach their children to the best of their ability according to that religion.



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ed11563 wrote:
Tinydancer wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

Abstinence worked so well for the Palin family. Four instances of out-of-wedlock pregnancies, but they promote abstinence. It's not realistic.


 Works quite well for some though so I don't see why promoting abstinence would be a bad thing. Unless you have no self control, then you just blame others for the lack of control.


I have no problem with people promoting / recommending abstinence.

 

I have a real problem with people who deny tweens and teens realistic information about birth control methods, people who insist that their female (and male) children MUST practice abstinence.

We have a name for parents like that: "Grandparents".

When my MIL had what passed for "the talk" with her daughter, her son had already been screwing her for years. Stupid.


 Just because sick people screwed up in your family doesn't mean every family should give up. I taught my daughter abstinence and to the best of my knowledge she abstained. If she was messing around she took care of it herself like the smart girl she was. Oh and by the way birth control doesn't guarantee no babies, only abstinence does that.



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Lawyerlady wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:

The states with the highest teen pregnancy rates all have one thing in common - they use abstinence only sex education. Abstinence only education does not work. It works for SOME people, but generally speaking it doesn't work.



-- Edited by Mellow Momma on Wednesday 22nd of July 2015 03:20:00 PM


 I agree it does not work across the board.  However, abstinence needs to be taught as the best option, with birth control as the back up.


 I would agree that it needs to be taught as AN option, but not the best option. More like "not having sex is the best way to avoid pregnancy and STD's. However if you do make the choice to have sex..." 



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If people want to give their children the ok to go and have sex then that's on you when they do.

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I actually taught both of my kids to be responsible for their choices. I taught them that sex was for committed relationships. I also told them that since I was a mom at 19, I knew what I was talking about. I did not shy away from the facts. I told them that not having sex guaranteed not getting pregnant but that if they did choose to have sex, it was best done responsibly. And we talked at length about what responsibly meant. One daughter started having sex at age 17 and continues to have sex with partners of her choosing. I respect that choice, as she is safe and responsible about it. The other is 17 now and says she will not have sex until she is done playing her sport since the chance exists that she would get pregnant and mess up her future. I respect both girls and their choices. But they grew up knowing BOTH sides. Not just one. And I trusted them to make their own decisions.

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