TOTALLY GEEKED!

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

RE: Welfare children - what's a society to do?

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Nobody is stripping anyone. Here are the conditions. Take it or leave it. Free choice.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

There are plenty of phonies collecting disability too.

msrock · Guru

I was poor too! Welfare. The conditions shouldn't be such, that you become comfortable. That doesn't motivate people. No one is saying to treat people like trash. But there is a line that has to be drawn. Some people aren't like you, NJN. They don't take the hand that is offered them. They take advantage. It's a fact of life. Some people don't want to succeed. They really don't. They're losers. Ugh. I lost my train of thought. I guess my point is, we're doing enough right now. You managed to lift yourself out of your circumstances and get out of the system and thrive. So it can be done with what he have now! You are living proof. I don't trust dumping a bunch more money into the system and making it a Utopia to be on welfare. (i'm partly kidding about that...)... But I'll tell you what. I work my butt off every day, 5 days a week and have very little free time, so I do think that should show for something. I live in a small, 3 bedroom house with 3 kids presently, but when we had all the kids, it was 5. I don't feel it's right for someone not working, not contributing, having babies, maybe a drug addiction... mental illness...just whatever the issue may be... having the same things I have. It's selfish, I know.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Treating people like criminals will make them criminals. Treating people with respect and expectations will make them want to succeed. You have said this over and over and over again. You say if you expect things from kids they'll do it. If you don't, they won't. Grown people are the same way. If you treat them like they are worthless their behaviors will show it. If you treat them like they are meaningful to society they will give back. Right now our system has no expectations for them so they don't do anything. I fully think we totally need to scrap our system and start over. But not by putting them in debtors prison.

On one thread we are discussing about bringing people around your kids that aren't safe. And on this thread we are saying to women, "Suck it up. You're poor. Your kids will be living in common areas with people who have criminal backgrounds." So, if they're poor it's okay to put their kids out there for the rapists. If a mother is not poor she shouldn't be around them. I get it.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Funny but I don't assosciate Dorms with prison. Perhaps you do. You are the one who brought up " prison". But I don't think loving in a dorm is " prison".

msrock · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Funny but I don't assosciate Dorms with prison. Perhaps you do. You are the one who brought up " prison". But I don't think loving in a dorm is " prison".

I don't either. I honestly don't know where that came from. I apologize... but my daughter stayed in one for 4 years at college. lol!

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

msrock wrote:
I was poor too! Welfare. The conditions shouldn't be such, that you become comfortable. That doesn't motivate people. No one is saying to treat people like trash. But there is a line that has to be drawn. Some people aren't like you, NJN. They don't take the hand that is offered them. They take advantage. It's a fact of life. Some people don't want to succeed. They really don't. They're losers. Ugh. I lost my train of thought. I guess my point is, we're doing enough right now. You managed to lift yourself out of your circumstances and get out of the system and thrive. So it can be done with what he have now! You are living proof. I don't trust dumping a bunch more money into the system and making it a Utopia to be on welfare. (i'm partly kidding about that...)... But I'll tell you what. I work my butt off every day, 5 days a week and have very little free time, so I do think that should show for something. I live in a small, 3 bedroom house with 3 kids presently, but when we had all the kids, it was 5. I don't feel it's right for someone not working, not contributing, having babies, maybe a drug addiction... mental illness...just whatever the issue may be... having the same things I have. It's selfish, I know.

I certainly don't think it should be Utopia. Absolutely not. But you should be able to leave your kids somewhere and go get an education and not worry about them being abused, beaten, or sexually abused. I don't want a bunch of welfare losers that hate kids and don't want to do anything else but need to do something to keep their welfare to watch MY kids Do you not understand that's not safe? It's very beautiful to paint this wonderful picture of all these women on welfare pulling together to help each other. It doesn't always work like that! And when you slap my kid or leave them in the same diaper all day I'm going to be pissed as hell and you're going to tell me I don't have that right?

Yeah, I made it. But the truth is I was one of those people that fudged the truth. I did things I wasn't supposed to. I learned really quickly how to work the system so I could SURVIVE. There is absolutely NO WAY you can be on welfare and not lie or cheat somehow. Everyone does it. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't at least fudge things so they could get help. It shouldn't be like that. If you honestly need help you shouldn't have to lie, cheat, and be dishonest to get it. I did things I could have gotten in trouble for. But it wasn't for drugs or alcohol or anything else. It was so I could buy diapers. Or pay a bill. You shouldn't be put in that situation is what I'm saying. I don't think you should be living at the Hilton. I don't think it should be paradise. But I sure as hell don't think you should be put in debtors prison! And yes, I did it. And yes, I know some people don't want to improve. I get that part too. I think we should give people every chance we can to change. Then if they don't they off the system. Not for a period of years. FOREVER! Stop the insanity. There is a right way. A humane way. And there's a wrong way too.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I have said more than once that places like old school buildings and places like that could make excellent housing.

There's kitchen facilities, administrative offices for things like simple clinics and education areas. Playgrounds for kids.

Each room can have bedding areas, a mini kitchen area, a bathroom.

Of course it would have to be carefully monitored because of the potential for crime.

It wouldn't have to be prison like.

There is NOTHING wrong with having expectations. And if living some place means you do 20 hours of cleaning, maintenance or something, I don't know why that would be a problem.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Yeah me neither. Seems like a step above the living conditions that a lot of people have now.

msrock · Guru

It's good, as long as you pay it back.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

In Japan , the students clean their own schools instead if janitors.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I really don't understand what is wrong with a family having a section 8 apartment. I lived in one with three kids. It wasn't the Ritz. It was small. But they had room to eat. They had room to play. There was a playground. I mean these apartments already exist. Why build dorms and move all the poor people to smaller places? Just because they are poor? There are already apartments EVERYWHERE. What is wrong with a family having an apartment. Again, not the Hilton, just a plain apartment?

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

What is wrong with efficient dorm style living with a common cafeteria?

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

There is absolutely NO WAY you can be on welfare and not lie or cheat somehow. Everyone does it.--NJN
_____________________________

This is an absolute lie. If you have to lie, you don't need it.

I have NEVER lied. I no longer received what I wasnt qualified for.

I couldnt, in good concious, lie and teach my kids not to lie.

Nope nothing is worth lying about.

-- Edited by lilyofcourse on Wednesday 5th of August 2015 09:08:47 PM

msrock · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
I really don't understand what is wrong with a family having a section 8 apartment. I lived in one with three kids. It wasn't the Ritz. It was small. But they had room to eat. They had room to play. There was a playground. I mean these apartments already exist. Why build dorms and move all the poor people to smaller places? Just because they are poor? There are already apartments EVERYWHERE. What is wrong with a family having an apartment. Again, not the Hilton, just a plain apartment?

Nothing is wrong, as long as after the effort and monies have been given, the recipient ultimately becomes employed and contributes to social security and medicare.

-- Edited by msrock on Wednesday 5th of August 2015 09:13:11 PM

Ohfour · Hooker

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
What is wrong with efficient dorm style living with a common cafeteria?

Nothing at all. Want to live on your own? Do so....

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I think there are different levels.

There are some who just need food stamps to make ends meet.

Some need medicaid for the kids and nothing else.

Some need help with meeting rent.

And then some need everything.

So not everyone would need the dorm type living situation.

As a person can do better, they should.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

I think what I am envisioning and what Njn is envisioning are 2 different things.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

msrock wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
I really don't understand what is wrong with a family having a section 8 apartment. I lived in one with three kids. It wasn't the Ritz. It was small. But they had room to eat. They had room to play. There was a playground. I mean these apartments already exist. Why build dorms and move all the poor people to smaller places? Just because they are poor? There are already apartments EVERYWHERE. What is wrong with a family having an apartment. Again, not the Hilton, just a plain apartment?
As long as after the effort and monies have been given, the recipient ultimately becomes employed and contributes to social security and medicare.

Well if they get an education then there's really no need for them to be on welfare! So yes. That's the goal.

And I've seen how people get around things on welfare. They live with people and have people write them a note saying they pay xyz amount of rent and they don't really pay it. I am well aware of how the system works.

msrock · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
msrock wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
I really don't understand what is wrong with a family having a section 8 apartment. I lived in one with three kids. It wasn't the Ritz. It was small. But they had room to eat. They had room to play. There was a playground. I mean these apartments already exist. Why build dorms and move all the poor people to smaller places? Just because they are poor? There are already apartments EVERYWHERE. What is wrong with a family having an apartment. Again, not the Hilton, just a plain apartment?
As long as after the effort and monies have been given, the recipient ultimately becomes employed and contributes to social security and medicare.
Well if they get an education then there's really no need for them to be on welfare! So yes. That's the goal.
And I've seen how people get around things on welfare. They live with people and have people write them a note saying they pay xyz amount of rent and they don't really pay it. I am well aware of how the system works.

But sometimes they get an education and they don't work. Because they never really wanted to. But that is the goal.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

We don't need more people with "educations". We need more people simply willing to work hard.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
They are already getting daycare benefits. Why when they dont' work do they need to have daycare? Go figure.

Here is my idea of Welfare. If you want Welfare, you live in the Govt built Dorm. Dorm Style. There is a cafeteria that serves 3 meals a day. That is where you eat. You get to stay there if you contribute by helping take care of the buildings and grounds and food service, etc. There will be a Bus that goes to town which you can ride to find work. If you don't like these conditions, then leave and go fend for yourself. And, if you are neglectful of your kid, then the State will step in and you will go to jail and your kid will be placed with responsible relatives or foster care.

This is the post that came off like you wanted them all in prison. People who aren't working shouldn't need daycare. I do have a problem with the government telling a person what they can eat and what they can't. Maybe you could make that an option but not mandatory. And if you are already working forty hours and need all this help then there's a problem. Either you are working a minimum wage job and need an education or you are not doing something else right. If you have skills and need help I'm not against that. You just can't blow into the system and start saying you have no rights as of right now. I will dictate everything to you. I'm telling you it won't work. And the whole thing about people not taking care of their kids? Yeah, good luck there. We have a system for that and it blows. You're going to have to do more work there than you are on this system. They really don't give a ****. They wait till kids die to do anything. But I wish you luck on it.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

When I lived in NC single moms could get assistance as long as the child was under the age of 5. Then you had to go to school to get a trade or get a job. I used to see 2 things happen.
.
1. The mom would have a baby every 4 years so they didn't have to go to school or work.
2. The mom would go to a program such as rad tech and then change major the last semester and get a few more years not working.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

msrock wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
msrock wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
I really don't understand what is wrong with a family having a section 8 apartment. I lived in one with three kids. It wasn't the Ritz. It was small. But they had room to eat. They had room to play. There was a playground. I mean these apartments already exist. Why build dorms and move all the poor people to smaller places? Just because they are poor? There are already apartments EVERYWHERE. What is wrong with a family having an apartment. Again, not the Hilton, just a plain apartment?
As long as after the effort and monies have been given, the recipient ultimately becomes employed and contributes to social security and medicare.
Well if they get an education then there's really no need for them to be on welfare! So yes. That's the goal.
And I've seen how people get around things on welfare. They live with people and have people write them a note saying they pay xyz amount of rent and they don't really pay it. I am well aware of how the system works.
But sometimes they get an education and they don't work. Because they never really wanted to. But that is the goal.

At that point it's to damn bad. We've given you the skills and you won't use them so too bad.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Southern_Belle wrote:
When I lived in NC single moms could get assistance as long as the child was under the age of 5. Then you had to go to school to get a trade or get a job. I used to see 2 things happen.
.
1. The mom would have a baby every 4 years so they didn't have to go to school or work.
2. The mom would go to a program such as rad tech and then change major the last semester and get a few more years not working.

And this is why funding should stop if you have another baby on welfare. Well, not stop but you don't get an increase.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

I didn't " come off" like anything. I gave a valid suggestion which you interpreted as " prison". Lol

msrock · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
msrock wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
msrock wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
I really don't understand what is wrong with a family having a section 8 apartment. I lived in one with three kids. It wasn't the Ritz. It was small. But they had room to eat. They had room to play. There was a playground. I mean these apartments already exist. Why build dorms and move all the poor people to smaller places? Just because they are poor? There are already apartments EVERYWHERE. What is wrong with a family having an apartment. Again, not the Hilton, just a plain apartment?
As long as after the effort and monies have been given, the recipient ultimately becomes employed and contributes to social security and medicare.
Well if they get an education then there's really no need for them to be on welfare! So yes. That's the goal.
And I've seen how people get around things on welfare. They live with people and have people write them a note saying they pay xyz amount of rent and they don't really pay it. I am well aware of how the system works.
But sometimes they get an education and they don't work. Because they never really wanted to. But that is the goal.
At that point it's to damn bad. We've given you the skills and you won't use them so too bad.

Wow. Then I don't want to contribute to welfare. Trust me. My mind's made up.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Southern_Belle wrote:
When I lived in NC single moms could get assistance as long as the child was under the age of 5. Then you had to go to school to get a trade or get a job. I used to see 2 things happen.
.
1. The mom would have a baby every 4 years so they didn't have to go to school or work.
2. The mom would go to a program such as rad tech and then change major the last semester and get a few more years not working.
And this is why funding should stop if you have another baby on welfare. Well, not stop but you don't get an increase.

My coworker had a neighbor who had a baby every 4 years. She had 6 kids, each 4 years after the other. She would make the older kids watch the little ones while she ran around having fun.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Regardless of what you think is good and right you cannot take all of someone's rights away unless they have committed a crime. Trust me. I would love for some of these women to be forced to have their tubes tied but I would never in my life vote for it or want it to happen. We live in a world with a slippery slope. If you tell one person the government can run their lives then the next person to lose their rights will be you. You say right now it's only people who are on welfare. What about people who take out student loans? We could move to them next. You have too much debt to be having kids right now. Slippery slope.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

msrock wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
msrock wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
msrock wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
I really don't understand what is wrong with a family having a section 8 apartment. I lived in one with three kids. It wasn't the Ritz. It was small. But they had room to eat. They had room to play. There was a playground. I mean these apartments already exist. Why build dorms and move all the poor people to smaller places? Just because they are poor? There are already apartments EVERYWHERE. What is wrong with a family having an apartment. Again, not the Hilton, just a plain apartment?
As long as after the effort and monies have been given, the recipient ultimately becomes employed and contributes to social security and medicare.
Well if they get an education then there's really no need for them to be on welfare! So yes. That's the goal.
And I've seen how people get around things on welfare. They live with people and have people write them a note saying they pay xyz amount of rent and they don't really pay it. I am well aware of how the system works.
But sometimes they get an education and they don't work. Because they never really wanted to. But that is the goal.
At that point it's to damn bad. We've given you the skills and you won't use them so too bad.
Wow. Then I don't want to contribute to welfare. Trust me. My mind's made up.

You know, in the end, when all is said and done, and IF we came up with the PERFECT system, there would still be someone to find some way to get around it.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

True. But that doesn't mean we should never change anything or roll over and ignore fraud.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Cheaters gonna cheat. Always. They will find a way. I mean I guess if they don't use their education you can demand they pay back the help. But how is that going to work if they won't work anyway? Maybe you could make them sign a contract that they have to work for at least xxx numbers of years or they will go to real jail? In the end there are going to be people that refuse to work no matter what.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Doesn't mean I have to pay for them.

Ohfour · Hooker

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Cheaters gonna cheat. Always. They will find a way. I mean I guess if they don't use their education you can demand they pay back the help. But how is that going to work if they won't work anyway? Maybe you could make them sign a contract that they have to work for at least xxx numbers of years or they will go to real jail? In the end there are going to be people that refuse to work no matter what.

And they go to jail. They are law breakers...

.

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Ohfour wrote:
sweet tooth wrote:
All good ideas. But we need leaders who aren't scared to implement them.
Agree....and we need churches to take a move active role. We need church members to help guide and support these mothers. If you belong to a large church (I do), how hard would it be to get 20 or so families to offer babysitting 1 night a month so a single mother could take GED or tech classes. Make sure she and her kids are fed? We as Christians need to start walking the walk. I am GUILTY of this. But this thread just gave me an idea for a new ministry at my church.

They used to take an active role, but due to our policies i the gov't their role is reduced. I want to go back to the older time when help was given by the church IF one adhered to church criteria. Gov't wasn't involved.

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

BTW, some of you argue about the other poster's opinion. I am more interested in solving the issue, not interested in how much or well you bash another poster. Sick of that crap. I name it Alpha Geeks. Don't be one.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Ohfour wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Cheaters gonna cheat. Always. They will find a way. I mean I guess if they don't use their education you can demand they pay back the help. But how is that going to work if they won't work anyway? Maybe you could make them sign a contract that they have to work for at least xxx numbers of years or they will go to real jail? In the end there are going to be people that refuse to work no matter what.
And they go to jail. They are law breakers...

.

I have no problem with that. I know from living on the system that it isn't always as easy people are making it sound. Yes, I know there are people who work the system. I understand that. It actually becomes a full time job just to STAY on the system. You have to go here and there and here and there again to get everything done. No, I am not trying to be all liberal and feel sorry for them. What I am saying is that if we made it easier for people to make it and get off the system then I am all for this attitude of throwing down the boom when they don't comply.

Tangerine · Guru

Is it me, or is it a bit Dickensian in here? Debtor's prisons and indentured servitude, really?

Not that I have any answers to these complex problems. Sorry.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Bring back the stockades!

msrock · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Cheaters gonna cheat. Always. They will find a way. I mean I guess if they don't use their education you can demand they pay back the help. But how is that going to work if they won't work anyway? Maybe you could make them sign a contract that they have to work for at least xxx numbers of years or they will go to real jail? In the end there are going to be people that refuse to work no matter what.

And there are going to be people that refuse to support them. It is what it is... so don't whine. I don't want to sign a contract with people that don't want to contribute. Bye! That's what blows your whole argument out of the water.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Except that, realistically, our government will never end the welfare system. If they tried there would be rioting.

msrock · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Except that, realistically, our government will never end the welfare system. If they tried there would be rioting.

Well maybe rioting would be appropriate. Instead of accepting it. Just maybe... we expect more from our citizens.. maybe we do. It should be, it should be... it should be like that...

weltschmerz · Guru

Tangerine wrote:
Is it me, or is it a bit Dickensian in here? Debtor's prisons and indentured servitude, really?

Not that I have any answers to these complex problems. Sorry.

Oooh, maybe the moms could wear big scarlet letters sewn on their bodices!! Seems fitting, don't you think?

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

weltschmerz wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Is it me, or is it a bit Dickensian in here? Debtor's prisons and indentured servitude, really?

Not that I have any answers to these complex problems. Sorry.
Oooh, maybe the moms could wear big scarlet letters sewn on their bodices!! Seems fitting, don't you think?

What letter? W? For welfare? B? For bum? L? For Loser? P? For prisoner? Such possibilities.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Is it me, or is it a bit Dickensian in here? Debtor's prisons and indentured servitude, really?

Not that I have any answers to these complex problems. Sorry.
Oooh, maybe the moms could wear big scarlet letters sewn on their bodices!! Seems fitting, don't you think?
What letter? W? For welfare? B? For bum? L? For Loser? P? For prisoner? Such possibilities.

If the couple is legally married do both adults have to wear a letter? Or can they trade off?

ed11563 · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

If the couple is legally married do both adults have to wear a letter? Or can they trade off?

LOL

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Southern_Belle wrote:
I live in an area with so many people on welfare. They don't want off it. They don't want to work. They do get free daycare from birth. My coworker's daughter has 4 kids now and works part time in a sandwich shop. She gets so much money for everything it's pathetic. She turned down the chance for free college. She'd rather just keep spitting kids out and living high on the hog. Oh, and being low income with 4 kids means $8,000 tax refunds.

Those are not tax refunds. Those are welfare payment bonuses made through the IRS tax return process. Most people who received the EITC do not pay taxes, so there are no taxes to refund. That particular benefit should be canceled.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

weltschmerz wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Is it me, or is it a bit Dickensian in here? Debtor's prisons and indentured servitude, really?

Not that I have any answers to these complex problems. Sorry.
Oooh, maybe the moms could wear big scarlet letters sewn on their bodices!! Seems fitting, don't you think?

This is typical. You can't have a rational discussion about welfare without this type of thing. It always devolves into this. Welfare is an entitlement. It is taking money from people who EARNED to give to someone else who didn't . A responsible Government has the responsibility to ensure that if that fraud and corruption is weeded out. But, funny how you cannot have a discussion about doing this without all the histrionics.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

I know what to do_sometimes wrote:
Southern_Belle wrote:
I live in an area with so many people on welfare. They don't want off it. They don't want to work. They do get free daycare from birth. My coworker's daughter has 4 kids now and works part time in a sandwich shop. She gets so much money for everything it's pathetic. She turned down the chance for free college. She'd rather just keep spitting kids out and living high on the hog. Oh, and being low income with 4 kids means $8,000 tax refunds.
Those are not tax refunds. Those are welfare payment bonuses made through the IRS tax return process. Most people who received the EITC do not pay taxes, so there are no taxes to refund. That particular benefit should be canceled.

Totally. Why would I be motivated to work full time when I can make more money working 20 hours a week? Then those large payments are tax free. I don't think anyone should ever receive more than they paid in.

What we need is welfare reform. States need a long term plan to change the system. It's not going to be fixed overnight.