TOTALLY GEEKED!

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Atheists call for removal of veterans' memorial over cross

weltschmerz · Guru

It's in a public park?

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

A public cemetery.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

And before people start in on separation of church and state it was ONE person complaining. He's the only one that doesn't like it. Don't go if you don't like it. And if you don't believe in God how can that even be offensive to someone. And if you want to put YOUR symbol, whatever it is, up go ahead. I don't know why the whole town has to be PC for ONE person.

weltschmerz · Guru

I watched the video twice. It said park. This also says park. No mention of a cemetery whatsoever.

The memorial features a silhouette of a soldier holding a gun and kneeling at the foot of a cross.
It was installed a few months ago alongside Freedom Rock at Young’s Park in the small town of Knoxville, Iowa.
www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/08/20/group-is-gunning-for-small-town-s-veteran-memorial-cross.html

You can't go around installing whatever you want in public parks. Maybe a couple of nice Bathtub Madonnas should be placed next to the cross.

-- Edited by weltschmerz on Sunday 23rd of August 2015 05:04:09 AM

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Why can't we install a cross in a public psrk? Just because you say so? You don't get to run America.

weltschmerz · Guru

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. You can erect a cross on private property, not public.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Establishment Clause of First Amendment of Canada?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

weltschmerz wrote:
I watched the video twice. It said park. This also says park. No mention of a cemetery whatsoever.

The memorial features a silhouette of a soldier holding a gun and kneeling at the foot of a cross.
It was installed a few months ago alongside Freedom Rock at Young’s Park in the small town of Knoxville, Iowa.
www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/08/20/group-is-gunning-for-small-town-s-veteran-memorial-cross.html

You can't go around installing whatever you want in public parks. Maybe a couple of nice Bathtub Madonnas should be placed next to the cross.

-- Edited by weltschmerz on Sunday 23rd of August 2015 05:04:09 AM

Ahh, yes you can - at least things like this. This crap has already been litigated to death.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Most recently - 9/11 Memorial.

ed11563 · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Why can't we install a cross in a public park? Just because you say so? You don't get to run America.

A public park is owned and maintained at the expense of the taxpayers. Some people believe that when someone installs a Buddha statue or a Swastika on publicly owned property, that violates the separation church (any church or equivalent) and State.

Some people believe that there is a proverbial "line in the sand" and (1) this crosses the line, and (2) it is a "slippery slope" that can lead to one religion or another bullying other religions into hiding, AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

I've seen photos taken in 1945 of massive graveyards of fallen American soldiers in Europe,

row after row of graves marked by white crosses (and some Jewish Stars) like the one in this small monument.

Personally, I think this is appropriate for use as part of a war memorial honoring fallen soldiers.

Ohfour · Hooker

Ever been to a Veteran cemetery? All of the stones have some sort of religious symbol at the top. 95% of those are crosses.

Ohfour · Hooker

Ohfour · Hooker

Don't you just love it when people from other countries try to school us on our laws? And most of the time, they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about....

huskerbb · Guru

weltschmerz wrote:
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. You can erect a cross on private property, not public.

You are Canadian. Your knowledge on the subject is nil and your opinion on it is irrelevant.

huskerbb · Guru

Ha! I like the idea of the guy purchasing the park to turn it into private property.

That's actually what they should do. Sell the park to the local VFW or American Legion for $1 with the stipulation that it can never be sold and the city is responsible for it's maintenance and upkeep.

weltschmerz · Guru

Ohfour wrote:
Ever been to a Veteran cemetery? All of the stones have some sort of religious symbol at the top. 95% of those are crosses.

That's a cemetery. This is a public park.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Ever notice how it's the ones who don't believe in God that gets so offended? They don't believe God even exists. How in the world does it matter to them?

Are they incapable of ignoring?

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Ever been to a Veteran cemetery? All of the stones have some sort of religious symbol at the top. 95% of those are crosses.
That's a cemetery. This is a public park.

And you are not American so your opinion means less than nothing.

But hold on to that nothing. Maybe it will become something!

Ohfour · Hooker

weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Ever been to a Veteran cemetery? All of the stones have some sort of religious symbol at the top. 95% of those are crosses.
That's a cemetery. This is a public park.

Its a public government owned cemetery. ...

Ohfour · Hooker

weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Ever been to a Veteran cemetery? All of the stones have some sort of religious symbol at the top. 95% of those are crosses.
That's a cemetery. This is a public park.

The 9/11 Memorial is a public park. Yet, they have been given the right to display religious symbols...

ed11563 · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. You can erect a cross on private property, not public.
You are Canadian. Your knowledge on the subject is nil and your opinion on it is irrelevant.

Husker, you seem to be slipping. This stupid insult is just wrong.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

ed11563 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. You can erect a cross on private property, not public.
You are Canadian. Your knowledge on the subject is nil and your opinion on it is irrelevant.
Husker, you seem to be slipping. This stupid insult is just wrong.

husker is not the only "Christian" insulting an entire COUNTRY.

flan

OutlawJoseyWales · Newbie

lilyofcourse wrote:
Ever notice how it's the ones who don't believe in God that gets so offended? They don't believe God even exists. How in the world does it matter to them?

Are they incapable of ignoring?

The same can be said of the Christians who have vandalized atheist billboards and forced them to be removed as well, ma'am.

Inability to ignore egregious behaviour is not limited to one group.

OutlawJoseyWales · Newbie

Angry Christians Force Removal of Atheist Billboard

In early January, an atheist group in Alabama, the United Coalition of Reason, placed a very benign billboard just outside of Mobile. The design is simple, showing a sun rising over mountains, and the phrase “Don’t believe in a god? You’re not alone.” The bottom right displays the website of the group who bought the advertising, GulfCoastCoR.org.

Seems pretty tame, right? No one’s being attacked, no one’s religion is mocked in any way. Just a simple message for a subset of people in Alabama who probably feel a little outnumbered. I live in Michigan, generally considered pretty blue, and I feel pretty outnumbered. An atheist or skeptics group can build the same sense of community a church can, so I get it.

Unfortunately, the billboard prompted a slew of complaints from the Christian community around Mobile. Lamar, the advertising company leasing the sign, only honored two weeks of the four week contract due to the negative response from the community. Lamar doesn’t appear to be playing fair with United CoR. The billboard was initially supposed to go up in late December, but was delayed when Lamar insisted that a disclaimer be added to the billboard stating who paid for it. That process took two weeks, weeks Lamar is now counting as part of the four week contract.

Jason Heap of the United Coalition of Reason said he was told that Lamar had received a large amount of complaints about the billboard and that he questioned the motivation to take the billboard down.
“By contractual obligations, they are required to give us a full four weeks.”

Troy Tatum, General Manager of this branch of Lamar, says the group is just looking for a fight.
Well, yes, when someone doesn’t fulfill their end of a contract, it tends to make you want to fight, through legal channels, for the fulfillment of the contract. Lamar says it has options, but honestly, they’re not very good options. The group can get half their money back, but the point wasn’t the money, it’s the message they were trying to communicate. You know, to those atheists in the area who might not know there’s a group of like-minded individuals nearby, and might need a friend, a shoulder.

Another option is for a billboard with a different message to be put up for two weeks. How would that message read, exactly, that would be more innocent than the current one? And then there are those complaints that will be sure to come in again, because the only atheist billboard some Christians will tolerate are no atheist billboards.

Troy Tatum and Lamar should fulfill their end of the contract and replace this friendly atheist billboard. It’s not offensive at all, but even if it was, it’s not like there are ever horrible religious billboards targeting atheists that stay up seemingly forever. Why, it’s almost like there’s a double standard here.

huskerbb · Guru

ed11563 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. You can erect a cross on private property, not public.
You are Canadian. Your knowledge on the subject is nil and your opinion on it is irrelevant.
Husker, you seem to be slipping. This stupid insult is just wrong.

Canadians--or people from any other country--have zero right to tell us what to do.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Why are Canadians OBSESSED about everything that happens in America? I find that so odd. I don't get it.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Why are Canadians OBSESSED about everything that happens in America? I find that so odd. I don't get it.

I won't say obsessed but I would wonder why they would worry about something like this. I mean it's not an issue that will affect them.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Why are Canadians OBSESSED about everything that happens in America? I find that so odd. I don't get it.
I won't say obsessed but I would wonder why they would worry about something like this. I mean it's not an issue that will affect them.

I don't follow news in Canada at all. I couldn't care less what they do. Why would I care? Why do they care soooo dang much? But, then again, we are America, the best country in the world.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

ed11563 wrote:
huskerbb wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. You can erect a cross on private property, not public.
You are Canadian. Your knowledge on the subject is nil and your opinion on it is irrelevant.
Husker, you seem to be slipping. This stupid insult is just wrong.

What insult? Does any of our opinions matter to a Canadian? No.

So why would a Canadian's opinion matter about our country?

It isn't an insult. It's a fact.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

OutlawJoseyWales wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Ever notice how it's the ones who don't believe in God that gets so offended? They don't believe God even exists. How in the world does it matter to them?

Are they incapable of ignoring?

The same can be said of the Christians who have vandalized atheist billboards and forced them to be removed as well, ma'am.
Inability to ignore egregious behaviour is not limited to one group.

I haven't seen any vandalism by Christians of atheist property, billboards or anything else.

I haven't seen vandalism by atheists of Christian property, billboards or anything else.

I have and do see atheists getting really bent out of shape over Christian symbols and suing a lot.

Still don't get why ignoring is so hard to do.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Why are Canadians OBSESSED about everything that happens in America? I find that so odd. I don't get it.
I won't say obsessed but I would wonder why they would worry about something like this. I mean it's not an issue that will affect them.
I don't follow news in Canada at all. I couldn't care less what they do. Why would I care? Why do they care soooo dang much? But, then again, we are America, the best country in the world.

I could see why they would follow big news. Gay marriage being made legal. Other big news like this. I mean there are some news stories here that impact the entire world. Because, like you say, we are America. The best country in the world. But this isn't a news story I would think would matter to them. They have their own laws and views on this stuff. And they don't get to vote or influence our decision on stuff like this.

Also, I don't care if Atheists put up billboards. I really don't. There was an issue awhile back where the billboard put up by the Atheists was openly mocking Christians. I don't remember what it said but it was at Christmastime and they were mocking God. Yes, in that instance I have an issue with it. If you want to put up an Atheist billboard supporting Atheists, go for it. And I would feel the same way if Christians put up a billboard openly mocking Atheists. I would be against that too. Instead of trying to put someone else, and their belief's down, just try to say something nice about what YOU believe in. Because if you can't find something nice to say about what you believe in then you need to do some real soul searching.

As long as no harm is coming to anything I don't understand why people can't share this country and the spaces in it. Be a little tolerant of each other. Maybe you're not Jewish or Buddist or something else but you don't have to sit in the park and pray in front of that statue. However, if someone else finds comfort in it then I don't see what the problem is. So now, instead of being tolerant of different religions we now have to take everyone's religion away.

Lindley · Guru

To be fair this is a public message board and all posters have a right to post their opinions. I didn't take her posts as telling us what to do but just sharing her opinion.

Lindley · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Why are Canadians OBSESSED about everything that happens in America? I find that so odd. I don't get it.
I won't say obsessed but I would wonder why they would worry about something like this. I mean it's not an issue that will affect them.
I don't follow news in Canada at all. I couldn't care less what they do. Why would I care? Why do they care soooo dang much? But, then again, we are America, the best country in the world.
I could see why they would follow big news. Gay marriage being made legal. Other big news like this. I mean there are some news stories here that impact the entire world. Because, like you say, we are America. The best country in the world. But this isn't a news story I would think would matter to them. They have their own laws and views on this stuff. And they don't get to vote or influence our decision on stuff like this.
Also, I don't care if Atheists put up billboards. I really don't. There was an issue awhile back where the billboard put up by the Atheists was openly mocking Christians. I don't remember what it said but it was at Christmastime and they were mocking God. Yes, in that instance I have an issue with it. If you want to put up an Atheist billboard supporting Atheists, go for it. And I would feel the same way if Christians put up a billboard openly mocking Atheists. I would be against that too. Instead of trying to put someone else, and their belief's down, just try to say something nice about what YOU believe in. Because if you can't find something nice to say about what you believe in then you need to do some real soul searching.
As long as no harm is coming to anything I don't understand why people can't share this country and the spaces in it. Be a little tolerant of each other. Maybe you're not Jewish or Buddist or something else but you don't have to sit in the park and pray in front of that statue. However, if someone else finds comfort in it then I don't see what the problem is. So now, instead of being tolerant of different religions we now have to take everyone's religion away.

We'll said.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I actually find that statue to be a beautiful piece of art. It is creative and really strikes an emotion when you see the soldier kneeling. I think if there was a comparable Buddist or Jewish statue I would also be able to appreciate the beauty of the statue and what the artist put into it. Sometimes you have to stop having knee jerk reactions and take time to think about things.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

ed11563 wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Why can't we install a cross in a public park? Just because you say so? You don't get to run America.
A public park is owned and maintained at the expense of the taxpayers. Some people believe that when someone installs a Buddha statue or a Swastika on publicly owned property, that violates the separation church (any church or equivalent) and State.
Some people believe that there is a proverbial "line in the sand" and (1) this crosses the line, and (2) it is a "slippery slope" that can lead to one religion or another bullying other religions into hiding, AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

I've seen photos taken in 1945 of massive graveyards of fallen American soldiers in Europe,
row after row of graves marked by white crosses (and some Jewish Stars) like the one in this small monument.
Personally, I think this is appropriate for use as part of a war memorial honoring fallen soldiers.

ed, I think that you forget a great deal of the taxpayers in this country are Christians.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

The government can ALLOW religious symbols - they can't REQUIRE them or BAN them.

ed11563 · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Why can't we install a cross in a public park? Just because you say so? You don't get to run America.
A public park is owned and maintained at the expense of the taxpayers. Some people believe that when someone installs a Buddha statue or a Swastika on publicly owned property, that violates the separation church (any church or equivalent) and State.
Some people believe that there is a proverbial "line in the sand" and (1) this crosses the line, and (2) it is a "slippery slope" that can lead to one religion or another bullying other religions into hiding, AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

I've seen photos taken in 1945 of massive graveyards of fallen American soldiers in Europe,
row after row of graves marked by white crosses (and some Jewish Stars) like the one in this small monument.
Personally, I think this is appropriate for use as part of a war memorial honoring fallen soldiers.

ed, I think that you forget a great deal of the taxpayers in this country are Christians.

I hope you understand that this fact is beaten into the consciousness of every NON-Christian ALL.THE.TIME.

I believe the Separation of Church and State doctrine exists to prevent the majority from overwhelming and taking advantage of the minorities.

If someone is a Christian in this country, they've probably never been forced to learn another religion's hymns and sing them in public schools. Or been denied a lease because of their religion. Or been denied a job --- or constantly insulted and degraded by a manager --- because they are thought of as being The Devil, or a thief, or a conspirator in a plot to take over the world. You were probably never required to learn Yiddish or Hebrew in public schools, but my kids were forced to take Latin, and to write Christmas cards in Latin. (That got the teacher a "How DARE YOU" visit from an angry Jewish parent.)

Part of the greatness of this country is that minorities are legally protected from the majority in some ways. One way is that the majority is not supposed to use tax money to promote their own religion.

-- Edited by ed11563 on Sunday 23rd of August 2015 05:11:33 PM

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Ed. It's 2015. Get over it already. No one is forced to participate in any religion now.

Conversely, the Christians are being forced to participate in thing against their religious beliefs.

But we will continue to believe that doesn't happen.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

ed11563 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Why can't we install a cross in a public park? Just because you say so? You don't get to run America.
A public park is owned and maintained at the expense of the taxpayers. Some people believe that when someone installs a Buddha statue or a Swastika on publicly owned property, that violates the separation church (any church or equivalent) and State.
Some people believe that there is a proverbial "line in the sand" and (1) this crosses the line, and (2) it is a "slippery slope" that can lead to one religion or another bullying other religions into hiding, AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

I've seen photos taken in 1945 of massive graveyards of fallen American soldiers in Europe,
row after row of graves marked by white crosses (and some Jewish Stars) like the one in this small monument.
Personally, I think this is appropriate for use as part of a war memorial honoring fallen soldiers.

ed, I think that you forget a great deal of the taxpayers in this country are Christians.
I hope you understand that this fact is beaten into the consciousness of every NON-Christian ALL.THE.TIME.
I believe the Separation of Church and State doctrine exists to prevent the majority from overwhelming and taking advantage of the minorities.

If someone is a Christian in the country, they've probably never been forced to learn another religion's hymns and sing them in public schools. Or been denied a lease because of their religion. Or been denied a job --- or constantly insulted and degraded by a manager --- because they are thought of as being The Devil, or a thief, or a conspirator in a plot to take over the world.
Part of the greatness of this country is that minorities are legally protected from the majority in some ways. One way is that the majority is not supposed to use tax money to promote their own religion.

I can't even take this seriously.

OutlawJoseyWales · Newbie

Why? Do you think that doesn't happen? I've had to counsel a manager for this exact behavior. Seen it with my own eyes. Damn shame too.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Why can't we install a cross in a public park? Just because you say so? You don't get to run America.
A public park is owned and maintained at the expense of the taxpayers. Some people believe that when someone installs a Buddha statue or a Swastika on publicly owned property, that violates the separation church (any church or equivalent) and State.
Some people believe that there is a proverbial "line in the sand" and (1) this crosses the line, and (2) it is a "slippery slope" that can lead to one religion or another bullying other religions into hiding, AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

I've seen photos taken in 1945 of massive graveyards of fallen American soldiers in Europe,
row after row of graves marked by white crosses (and some Jewish Stars) like the one in this small monument.
Personally, I think this is appropriate for use as part of a war memorial honoring fallen soldiers.

ed, I think that you forget a great deal of the taxpayers in this country are Christians.
I hope you understand that this fact is beaten into the consciousness of every NON-Christian ALL.THE.TIME.
I believe the Separation of Church and State doctrine exists to prevent the majority from overwhelming and taking advantage of the minorities.

If someone is a Christian in the country, they've probably never been forced to learn another religion's hymns and sing them in public schools. Or been denied a lease because of their religion. Or been denied a job --- or constantly insulted and degraded by a manager --- because they are thought of as being The Devil, or a thief, or a conspirator in a plot to take over the world.
Part of the greatness of this country is that minorities are legally protected from the majority in some ways. One way is that the majority is not supposed to use tax money to promote their own religion.

I can't even take this seriously.

Why not? I have heard people say things like that about Jewish people, at work. Not often, and not knowingly in the company of someone who was Jewish, but I have heard it.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I am well aware there is prejudice. If someone thinks someone else has a conspiracy to take over the world the problem is not with the other person. Seriously, that's not about prejudice. That's about mental illness. So let's keep the two separate.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

And I have never in my life heard anyone called a devil just because of their religion. I've heard people referred to as the devil because of their behavior. For example, criminals. I've also never heard anyone been called a thief because of their religion. Because of their behavior yes. But those are two entirely different things.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

OutlawJoseyWales wrote:
Why? Do you think that doesn't happen? I've had to counsel a manager for this exact behavior. Seen it with my own eyes. Damn shame too.

I think discrimination does happen. I just don't think that people don't hire someone because they are the devil because of their religion. Unless of course they come to the interview and say they worship Satan. But I don't know why someone would do that. I've never in my life heard of anyone thinking someone of another religion was in a conspiracy to take over the world. That's ridiculous.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I've heard of people not liking other religions. We have that on this board for sure. But how you parlay that into a conspiracy is beyond me.

And I don't give a flying flip what religious songs my kids are singing. As long as they aren't singing about killing and maiming people I have no problem with it.

OutlawJoseyWales · Newbie

I've never in my life heard of anyone thinking someone of another religion was in a conspiracy to take over the world. That's ridiculous.

**********************

Well ma'am, ms.Lily has expressed that exact view more times than either of us can count on our fingers and toes put together.

-- Edited by OutlawJoseyWales on Sunday 23rd of August 2015 05:24:53 PM

-- Edited by OutlawJoseyWales on Sunday 23rd of August 2015 05:26:28 PM

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Thank you. I DO understand discrimination. I just don't buy into conspiracy theories.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

OutlawJoseyWales wrote:
I've never in my life heard of anyone thinking someone of another religion was in a conspiracy to take over the world. That's ridiculous.

Well ma'am, ms.Lily has expressed that exact view more times than either of us can count on our fingers and toes put together.

-- Edited by OutlawJoseyWales on Sunday 23rd of August 2015 05:24:53 PM

Okay, well I was thinking about Jewish people. ed thinks people are out to get Jews. I don't deny the Holocaust but we are no longer in it and in my lifetime, among everyone I know, if you tell them you are Jewish they will say, "That's cool." I mean, it's not even a head nod.

But yes, in your example you are correct.

ed11563 · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
And I have never in my life heard anyone called a devil just because of their religion. I've heard people referred to as the devil because of their behavior. For example, criminals. I've also never heard anyone been called a thief because of their religion. Because of their behavior yes. But those are two entirely different things.

You've lead a very sheltered life.

I had a manager once who told me he was surprised that I didn't have red horns and a forked tail. He meant it. Then he raised my quota higher than anyone else's "because you're a Jew and you can handle it."

He told me he'd never met any Jews growing up in Arkansas, or in the Air Force, and living in New York was kind of freaking him out.