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Post Info TOPIC: Do You Believe in the Devil?
Lady Gaga Snerd


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Do You Believe in the Devil?
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The Devil? Seriously?

How can people believe the manifestly absurd?


There’s a church in Harlem that preaches derogatory things about gays and lesbians. Hey, that's their right. But some folks in the neighborhood don’t like all the hatred spewing from this Christian congregation, and so last week they held a public demonstration, as is their right. They walked in front of the church chanting: “Stop the hate now!” In response to their chanting, the church’s leader, Pastor James David Manning, came out to confront them. “You are Jesus haters!” he yelled(link is external). “You faggots! You lesbos! You dungeaters! You perverts!...You are wretched, unbelievable, despicable -- a disgrace to humanity!” And then he explained to them that they were full of the Devil. They were possessed by demons. “Stop the demons now!” he yelled.

Demons? Really? What, with horns? Tails? Yellow teeth? Or are they invisible demons?

Presidential candidate Ben Carson – a man who graduated with a bachelor’s degree in psychology from Yale university and an M.D. from the University of Michigan medical school, and who worked as a leading neurosurgeon at Johns Hopkins Hospital – publicly declared, back in a speech from 2012, his unwillingness to accept the scientific, empirical evidence for Darwinian evolution, which happens to be the fundamental cornerstone of the biological sciences. “I personally believe that this theory that Darwin came up with was something that was encouraged by the adversary,” the well-educated doctor said(link is external). The “adversary”? Is that like some magical annoying neighbor who always leaves his sprinklers on at night? Or is it more like some cosmic puppet master who makes malevolent villains out of unsuspecting, weak-minded humans? Or tricks people into believing solid evidence about the nature of life on planet earth? You say that humans share 99% of their genetic makeup with chimpanzees? – why the devil must have made that up!

In October, 2013, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia declared(link is external) that, yes, he most certainly believes in the existence of Satan. But why don’t we see him? Well, “you know, it is curious. In the Gospels, the Devil is doing all sorts of things. He’s making pigs run off cliffs, he’s possessing people and whatnot. And that doesn’t happen very much anymore…It’s because he’s smart….What he’s doing now is getting people not to believe in him or in God. He’s much more successful that way.” Huh? What? The devil is “smart” – like, he has a degree in chemistry? He knows how to translate Sanskrit into Estonian? And he somehow gets people not to believe him? And the evidence of all of this is…? This man, Scalia, mind you, interprets the Constitution for the nation, declaring what is legal and illegal for millions of citizens.


* * *

How can people seriously believe in the devil? The year is 2015, not 1315. And yet, the fact remains that tens of millions of Americans continue to believe that there is a magical, wicked, evil – oh, and smart -- being out there doing magical, wicked, evil deeds and presiding over a fiery realm, where demons crawl and witches cackle. Oh, wait. No cackling witches. Just demons -- right?

According to a 2013 YouGov survey(link is external), 57% of Americans believe in the devil. And yes, that is 57% of American adults – not kindergarteners. But hey, its probably the same percentage among that demographic, too. Only a completely uninformed, poorly educated mind with little knowledge of things like evidence, could believe in the devil. Oh wait, scratch that. Actually, top neurosurgeons and Supreme Court justices can. And millions upon millions of other well-educated, upstanding men and women, too.

But there is no such thing as the devil, just as there is no such thing as fairies, imps, or goblins. The two largest religions in the world – Christianity and Islam – teach that there is a devil. And they are wrong. There is no evidence for such a thing. Not a shred. It is simply something that germinated from the unscientific, irrational minds of early humans who tried their best to explain why bad things happen to good people, why good people sometimes do bad things, and why there is so much needless suffering in the world.

But wrong and infantile as it is, the belief continues. Big time. And this is quite a problem: how can we understand and explain why people believe in such absurdities? We can trot out the usual explanations: 1) Socialization. People are taught to believe in the devil by their parents and other family members, and so when one is raised with such a belief, it takes on a force of factuality that it impervious to critique. 2) Group membership. People are part of religious groups or cultural groups that contain a host of beliefs, including devil belief, and because people gain so much from being part of this group – community, solidarity, camaraderie, heritage, etc. – they swallow beliefs without much investigation, because the benefits of being part of the group outweigh the benefits of critical thinking and empiricism. 3) Psychological comfort. When one’s child dies from leukemia, or one’s parents are killed in a tsunami, or a little girl is abducted from her home and raped to death by a drifter, the pain of such realities can simply be too much to bear; we need to think that these things aren’t senseless and random, but the work of some powerful being who simply enjoys causing misery. Now, why God would allow this fiendish being to live and thrive is hard to fathom – but hey, any explanation, no matter how fanciful, is better than no explanation. 4) Existential angst. Most people like to watch a movie where there is a clear good guy and a clear bad guy. Such a plot is easy to follow, easy to hang on to. You know where you stand. But movies in which characters are morally ambiguous or questionable, and no one is all-good or all-bad, and drama is about multiple parties having agendas which are not evil, but merely in conflict, and the ending isn’t always happy– well, such movies may do well at Sundance, but they don’t do well with the general public. This is because many people find life’s ambiguity threatening. It may be realistic, but it can feel existentially disquieting. So it goes with God and the Devil; people would rather believe in their existence than accept the unnerving truth that we are here on this planet for reasons unknowable, with no magic deities presiding in pearly or fiery realms.

All of these explanations are certainly plausible. And yet, I must admit, they leave me feeling short-changed. For when I think about well-educated people believing in Beelzebub, I remain deeply, deeply flummoxed. How can anyone with even a basic knowledge of history and psychology, science and anthropology, mythology and logic, believe that there is an immortal Evil Being running around doing evil things? It is so absurd as to be pathetic.

There are many joys of being secular, but also some downsides. And one is that you have to live in a world where presidents and judges, professors and doctors, Rhodes scholars and engineers – not to mention your neighbors and colleagues – believe things that are utterly and completely imaginary.

And with horns, no less.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201509/the-devil-seriously



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Lawyerlady


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Well, isn't it arrogant to "KNOW" something doesn't exist because its existence can't be proven when the non-existence can't be proven, either?

Of course the devil exists. Evil exists. All you need to do is turn on the news for proof of that.

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huskerbb


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So...

You don't like what someone else believes, so it is "infantile" and an "absurdity".

So who are the "intolerant" ones?

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weltschmerz


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No, I do not believe in the devil.
Do evil psychopaths exist? Absolutely! However, I don't think there's anything supernatural about it.

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FNW


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Yes, I believe. I've seen it. Not too long ago, in fact. As I was driving, the face of a man nearby in a stopped car changed. It was like it morphed or something. It sent chills down my spine.

A priest who taught at the church I grew up claims to have seen it, too. In Europe, while he was walking down the street, wearing his collar. The thing spit at him with forked tongue and red eyes, as told by the priest.

But if someone doesn't believe, then so be it. But don't mock me for what I've seen or believe.

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flan327


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No.

Not the traditional Christian version. No.

flan

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lilyofcourse


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Yes. Satan is very much real.



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weltschmerz


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lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 



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Lindley


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I'm not articulate in my wording of things like you all are so I hardly ever reply to these threads, but yes I do believe in the devil. Not the horned pointy tail symbol we see in mythes but a spiritual being. He was the highest ranked angel in Heaven till he was kicked out for claiming he was like God and rebelled against God. He and a 1/3 of the angles who sided with Satan was kicked out of Heaven.

He is real and so is demons. I don't dwell on them though.

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Dona Worry Be Happy


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Wow. I don't believe in the devil either, but this article is revolting.

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lilyofcourse


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weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 My proof is in the Bible.

You may "think". 

 But I know.

 



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lilyofcourse


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Lindley wrote:

I'm not articulate in my wording of things like you all are so I hardly ever reply to these threads, but yes I do believe in the devil. Not the horned pointy tail symbol we see in mythes but a spiritual being. He was the highest ranked angel in Heaven till he was kicked out for claiming he was like God and rebelled against God. He and a 1/3 of the angles who sided with Satan was kicked out of Heaven.

He is real and so is demons. I don't dwell on them though.

 You said that perfectly.

 



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lilyofcourse


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Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:

Wow. I don't believe in the devil either, but this article is revolting.

 I agree some of the article is awful.

That preacher was actually being used by Satan. 



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Charley Harper
Lawyerlady


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weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 No. 

 

Proof is obviously subjective.  There is a ton of proof of God's existence and Satan's and yet you don't believe. 

 

I KNOW God is real - my personal experience has proven it to me, and that is not for you to judge or decide if it is real.  And with God being real, so is Satan.



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flan327


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lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 My proof is in the Bible.

You may "think". 

 But I know.

 

Because a book told you so..................... 

flan



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Lawyerlady


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flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 My proof is in the Bible.

You may "think". 

 But I know.

 

Because a book told you so..................... 

flan

 For a librarian, that's quite a lot of disdain for a book.  Especially the best selling, oldest printed book of all time.



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LawyerLady

 

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weltschmerz


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The oldest printed book is the Diamond Sutra, from the year 868.

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lilyofcourse


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The Bible is from scrolls from since before Christ was born.



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Charley Harper
weltschmerz


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Well, you can't keep moving the goalposts. Are we talking the oldest? The best-selling? Printed?

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huskerbb


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weltschmerz wrote:

The oldest printed book is the Diamond Sutra, from the year 868.

Um, the Bible is much older than that.  The Old Testament dates to at least the year 500 BC.  Most of the New Testament was penned in the first century after Christ's death on earth.  CENTURIES before the year 868.   



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yes--have personally experienced violence and its consequences many, many times in this life--violence born of hatred and anger so pure and dark and with such blatant disregard for human life ( or ANY life ) that it must stem from a source beyond this realm, beyond this sphere of existence

not everyone that walks this earth is human ( at least in the conventional sense ) but have also encountered many who are on the opposite side of the wall ( not all human in the conventional sense ) and they are tremendous agents for good and for righteousness




-- Edited by burns07 on Monday 28th of September 2015 05:10:06 PM

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Lawyerlady


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weltschmerz wrote:

The oldest printed book is the Diamond Sutra, from the year 868.

 No, dear.  That was hand written, not printed.



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LawyerLady

 

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flan327


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Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 My proof is in the Bible.

You may "think". 

 But I know.

 

Because a book told you so..................... 

flan

 For a librarian, that's quite a lot of disdain for a book.  Especially the best selling, oldest printed book of all time.

As a librarian, I can actually think for myself. 

Danielle Steele has tons of bestsellers. She sux.

flan



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Lawyerlady


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flan327 wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 My proof is in the Bible.

You may "think". 

 But I know.

 

Because a book told you so..................... 

flan

 For a librarian, that's quite a lot of disdain for a book.  Especially the best selling, oldest printed book of all time.

As a librarian, I can actually think for myself. 

Danielle Steele has tons of bestsellers. She sux.

flan

 And yet she can spell.

 

And that is seriously NOT the type of best-seller we are talking about.  The Bible outsells any book EVER.



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weltschmerz


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burns07 wrote:


yes--have personally experienced violence and its consequences many, many times in this life--violence born of hatred and anger so pure and dark and with such blatant disregard for human life ( or ANY life ) that it must stem from a source beyond this realm, beyond this sphere of existence

not everyone that walks this earth is human ( at least in the conventional sense ) but have also encountered many who are on the opposite side of the wall ( not all human in the conventional sense ) and they are tremendous agents for good and for righteousness




-- Edited by burns07 on Monday 28th of September 2015 05:10:06 PM

So, you don't believe in psychopathology? The devil made them do it? 



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weltschmerz wrote:
burns07 wrote:


yes--have personally experienced violence and its consequences many, many times in this life--violence born of hatred and anger so pure and dark and with such blatant disregard for human life ( or ANY life ) that it must stem from a source beyond this realm, beyond this sphere of existence

not everyone that walks this earth is human ( at least in the conventional sense ) but have also encountered many who are on the opposite side of the wall ( not all human in the conventional sense ) and they are tremendous agents for good and for righteousness




-- Edited by burns07 on Monday 28th of September 2015 05:10:06 PM

So, you don't believe in psychopathology? The devil made them do it? 

 Why does believing in one mean you don't believe in the other?  Some mental disorders are simply that - but some people are just nothing but pure evil - they are not mentally ill, and in fact, are usually quite brilliant.   Ted Bundy comes to mind.



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LawyerLady

 

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weltschmerz


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Lawyerlady wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
burns07 wrote:


yes--have personally experienced violence and its consequences many, many times in this life--violence born of hatred and anger so pure and dark and with such blatant disregard for human life ( or ANY life ) that it must stem from a source beyond this realm, beyond this sphere of existence

not everyone that walks this earth is human ( at least in the conventional sense ) but have also encountered many who are on the opposite side of the wall ( not all human in the conventional sense ) and they are tremendous agents for good and for righteousness




-- Edited by burns07 on Monday 28th of September 2015 05:10:06 PM

So, you don't believe in psychopathology? The devil made them do it? 

 Why does believing in one mean you don't believe in the other?  Some mental disorders are simply that - but some people are just nothing but pure evil - they are not mentally ill, and in fact, are usually quite brilliant.   Ted Bundy comes to mind.

He was a psychopath. If you want to believe he was possessed by demons, have at it. No skin off my nose. 



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karl271


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Oh, definitely. There is such unspeakable evil in the world that I know the Devil, Satan, Lucifer, whatever you want to call it; exists. I simply equate the evil with the name and do not worry about if he has hooves, etc...

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ed11563


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Do I believe in The Devil?

 

No.

 

I know there are pedophiles, psychopaths, serial killers, and just downright mean nasty individuals.

I believe these individuals get that way without outside, supernatural guidance or encouragement. 

 

 



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weltschmerz


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Lawyerlady wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 No. 

 

Proof is obviously subjective.  There is a ton of proof of God's existence and Satan's and yet you don't believe. 

 

I KNOW God is real - my personal experience has proven it to me, and that is not for you to judge or decide if it is real.  And with God being real, so is Satan.

 A ton of proof, you say? Like what? I haven't seen ANY, never mind 2,000 pounds of it.



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Ohfour


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Most have witnessed miracles, only God could have orchestrated. Its very sad to me that you have chosen to ignore what you have seen...

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weltschmerz wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 No. 

 

Proof is obviously subjective.  There is a ton of proof of God's existence and Satan's and yet you don't believe. 

 

I KNOW God is real - my personal experience has proven it to me, and that is not for you to judge or decide if it is real.  And with God being real, so is Satan.

 A ton of proof, you say? Like what? I haven't seen ANY, never mind 2,000 pounds of it.

 I take you are an Atheist?  Sorry if I missed it on other posts.  



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weltschmerz


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Ohfour wrote:

Most have witnessed miracles, only God could have orchestrated. Its very sad to me that you have chosen to ignore what you have seen...

What kind of miracles?  



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huskerbb


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weltschmerz wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 No. 

 

Proof is obviously subjective.  There is a ton of proof of God's existence and Satan's and yet you don't believe. 

 

I KNOW God is real - my personal experience has proven it to me, and that is not for you to judge or decide if it is real.  And with God being real, so is Satan.

 A ton of proof, you say? Like what? I haven't seen ANY, never mind 2,000 pounds of it.

You've seen it--you just refuse to believe that is what it is. 

 

 



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weltschmerz


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Bonny22Pye wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 No. 

 

Proof is obviously subjective.  There is a ton of proof of God's existence and Satan's and yet you don't believe. 

 

I KNOW God is real - my personal experience has proven it to me, and that is not for you to judge or decide if it is real.  And with God being real, so is Satan.

 A ton of proof, you say? Like what? I haven't seen ANY, never mind 2,000 pounds of it.

 I take you are an Atheist?  Sorry if I missed it on other posts.  

I am.

 

 

 

 

BOOO! 



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ed11563


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weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

Most have witnessed miracles, only God could have orchestrated. Its very sad to me that you have chosen to ignore what you have seen...

What kind of miracles?  

I witnessed the birth of my child. Common occurrence  ... Miraculous to me.



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weltschmerz


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So, it seems like as soon as you ask for proof or evidence, everyone disappears.
There is no proof. There never was.

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ed11563


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weltschmerz wrote:

So, it seems like as soon as you ask for proof or evidence, everyone disappears.
There is no proof. There never was.

 
A key thing about a belief system is,
you either believe or not.
I don't see any reason to believe in BOTH God and the devil.
The Devil is just an excuse for terrible behavior.


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My daughter defied every pre natal doctor at one of THE best hospitals in the world. There was no explanation for her surviving. Yet, she did and is the most incredible woman, with kids of her own. Doctors and nurses called her the miracle baby...

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lilyofcourse


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weltschmerz wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Yes. Satan is very much real.

Proof, please? Otherwise, you should preface your sentence with "I think". 

 No. 

 

Proof is obviously subjective.  There is a ton of proof of God's existence and Satan's and yet you don't believe. 

 

I KNOW God is real - my personal experience has proven it to me, and that is not for you to judge or decide if it is real.  And with God being real, so is Satan.

 A ton of proof, you say? Like what? I haven't seen ANY, never mind 2,000 pounds of it.

 Can you prove he doesn't exist?



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Charley Harper
Ohfour


Hooker

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G was a serious cokehead. He was over it and tried many times to quit. One night, at the end of his rope, he prayed to God that he wouldnt "score". So he went to his dealer, and did indeed "score". But the cut was impure and he didnt get high. So he didnt really score. He flushed the crap and never did coke again.

Yes, thats a miracle from God. He never even went through serious withdrawal. ..

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huskerbb


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weltschmerz wrote:

So, it seems like as soon as you ask for proof or evidence, everyone disappears.
There is no proof. There never was.

There is none so blind as he who will not see. 



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I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.

 

Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.
lilyofcourse


My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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Weltz, can you prove God and Satan DOESN'T exist?

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Charley Harper
Lady Gaga Snerd


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Creation is the giant smoking gun that atheists refuse to see.

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chef


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weltschmerz wrote:

So, it seems like as soon as you ask for proof or evidence, everyone disappears.
There is no proof. There never was.

 It would not matter what proof or evidence is provided. You will refute and deny it until you are ready to open your heart to Christ.

Fact is, your heart is hardened to God. He could stand right in front of you and you would deny that He is God. When you are ready to open your heart, you will see the proof and evidence because it is all around you.



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lilyofcourse


My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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chef wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

So, it seems like as soon as you ask for proof or evidence, everyone disappears.
There is no proof. There never was.

 It would not matter what proof or evidence is provided. You will refute and deny it until you are ready to open your heart to Christ.

Fact is, your heart is hardened to God. He could stand right in front of you and you would deny that He is God. When you are ready to open your heart, you will see the proof and evidence because it is all around you.

 This.

 



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A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.

Charley Harper
weltschmerz


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lilyofcourse wrote:

Weltz, can you prove God and Satan DOESN'T exist?

You're asking me to prove a negative? Seriously?

Look, if someone posts that there is TONS of evidence that God is real, let's see some. 



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weltschmerz


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lilyofcourse wrote:
chef wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

So, it seems like as soon as you ask for proof or evidence, everyone disappears.
There is no proof. There never was.

 It would not matter what proof or evidence is provided. You will refute and deny it until you are ready to open your heart to Christ.

Fact is, your heart is hardened to God. He could stand right in front of you and you would deny that He is God. When you are ready to open your heart, you will see the proof and evidence because it is all around you.

 This.

 

I'm sorry, but someone buying impure drugs from a crooked dealer, and an infant surviving hardly constitutes proof of anything.

Dealers rip off their customers all the time and babies survive because of medical intervention. Anecdotes do not equal data.



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Ohfour


Hooker

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This dealer was the premium of LA...still dealing to this day. Gs cut was bad. An answer to a prayer.

And my baby didn't survive because of medical intervention. She survived despite intervention. They did nothing but put me into an operating room because she was a preemie. She weighed 7 pounds. We were a nervous wreck. Her Dr and nurses called her a miracle. We all know that she is...

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weltschmerz


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Ohfour wrote:

This dealer was the premium of LA...still dealing to this day. Gs cut was bad. An answer to a prayer.

And my baby didn't survive because of medical intervention. She survived despite intervention. They did nothing but put me into an operating room because she was a preemie. She weighed 7 pounds. We were a nervous wreck. Her Dr and nurses called her a miracle. We all know that she is...

Was this baby written up in the medical journals as a miracle baby?

My son weighed 6.13 pounds and he was stillborn. They brought him back. Not a miracle. Good doctors. 



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