TOTALLY GEEKED!

Mary Zombie · Guru

RE: Daughter won't pay back loans

huskerbb · Guru

But don't you think these parents created the entitlement by giving? If they had said in the first place--no, we can only do this much to be fair to your brothers and sisters--I don't think it would have gotten this bad.

You create entitlement by not being fair.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

huskerbb wrote:

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:

Tinydancer wrote:
I don't think LGS meant she favored one over the other. Just that she doesn't dwell on who got what.
She probably doesn't--most parents don't--but that doesn't mean the kids don't notice.

Notice what? I know that we treat our kids with love and fairness and do whatever we can to get them on track in life. If they want to gin up some imaginary slights and offenses, not sure what we can really do about that. Or, should we go ask their permission every time we buy a jacket for one of them?
That won't happen if fairness is actually part of the equation.

I disagree. When kids are raised as entitled greedy monsters, nothing is ever "fair" in their eyes.
You don't get to control how they feel about it.

Did I say somewhere that I control how they feel about it? You keep saying that over and over as if that is somehow important.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

I am parenting my kids to the best of my ability. If one of them decides something wasn't to their liking, you want me to do what exactly?

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
But, perhaps we disagree on what defines "fair". I don't define fair as having spent equal dollar amounts of my kids. Maybe some people do. If that is the definition of fair, then maybe I have achieved that or maybe I don't. I sure as hell am not going to keep some log book every time I buy one kid a pair of shoes. Sometimes one needs more. DD has gone to a couple of dances this year. She likes to dress up so yeah, I bought her some pretty dresses and accessories. Am I supposed to then run out that week and buy stuff for my sons or cut them a check? That just seems ridiculous.

I absolutely define fair as being equal amounts of money. That is the crux of our disagreement.

However, using the example you gave, no I would not try to compensate my sons after I bought my daughter a dress for a school dance. That's a "need" in my book. I am talking about gifts strictly.

But I would think that if I were your younger so , yes, I would be upset that my older brother was "rewarded" for not going to college b being given a car while I chose to attend college and was not given a car. Even though that wasn't your intent, nor was it your rationale, as husker said, you cannot control how your children feel about or react to it. I prefer to keep things as equitable as possible. If my kids want to fight about something it certainly won't be becasue I handed them a reason on a silver platter.

Each kid needs different things at different times. The key to being "fair" is making sure you do for each child evenly when that time arises. When on child turns 16, if you hand them the keys to a brand new car, you had better be ready to do the same for the next child when they turn 16.

Mary Zombie · Guru

huskerbb wrote:
But don't you think these parents created the entitlement by giving? If they had said in the first place--no, we can only do this much to be fair to your brothers and sisters--I don't think it would have gotten this bad.

You create entitlement by not being fair.

I agree.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Mary Zombie wrote:

huskerbb wrote:
But don't you think these parents created the entitlement by giving? If they had said in the first place--no, we can only do this much to be fair to your brothers and sisters--I don't think it would have gotten this bad.

You create entitlement by not being fair.
I agree.

Entitlement isn't created by real fairness. Entitlement is created by teaching people that they somehow DESERVE to have something that they don't deserve to have through no efforts of their own and through stealing the achievements of others.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Mellow Momma wrote:

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
But, perhaps we disagree on what defines "fair". I don't define fair as having spent equal dollar amounts of my kids. Maybe some people do. If that is the definition of fair, then maybe I have achieved that or maybe I don't. I sure as hell am not going to keep some log book every time I buy one kid a pair of shoes. Sometimes one needs more. DD has gone to a couple of dances this year. She likes to dress up so yeah, I bought her some pretty dresses and accessories. Am I supposed to then run out that week and buy stuff for my sons or cut them a check? That just seems ridiculous.
I absolutely define fair as being equal amounts of money. That is the crux of our disagreement.
However, using the example you gave, no I would not try to compensate my sons after I bought my daughter a dress for a school dance. That's a "need" in my book. I am talking about gifts strictly.
But I would think that if I were your younger so , yes, I would be upset that my older brother was "rewarded" for not going to college b being given a car while I chose to attend college and was not given a car. Even though that wasn't your intent, nor was it your rationale, as husker said, you cannot control how your children feel about or react to it. I prefer to keep things as equitable as possible. If my kids want to fight about something it certainly won't be becasue I handed them a reason on a silver platter.
Each kid needs different things at different times. The key to being "fair" is making sure you do for each child evenly when that time arises. When on child turns 16, if you hand them the keys to a brand new car, you had better be ready to do the same for the next child when they turn 16.

How is a dance for a dress a "need"? It isn't. Food, basic clothes, shelter. That's a need.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Mellow Momma wrote:

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
But, perhaps we disagree on what defines "fair". I don't define fair as having spent equal dollar amounts of my kids. Maybe some people do. If that is the definition of fair, then maybe I have achieved that or maybe I don't. I sure as hell am not going to keep some log book every time I buy one kid a pair of shoes. Sometimes one needs more. DD has gone to a couple of dances this year. She likes to dress up so yeah, I bought her some pretty dresses and accessories. Am I supposed to then run out that week and buy stuff for my sons or cut them a check? That just seems ridiculous.
I absolutely define fair as being equal amounts of money. That is the crux of our disagreement.
However, using the example you gave, no I would not try to compensate my sons after I bought my daughter a dress for a school dance. That's a "need" in my book. I am talking about gifts strictly.
But I would think that if I were your younger so , yes, I would be upset that my older brother was "rewarded" for not going to college b being given a car while I chose to attend college and was not given a car. Even though that wasn't your intent, nor was it your rationale, as husker said, you cannot control how your children feel about or react to it. I prefer to keep things as equitable as possible. If my kids want to fight about something it certainly won't be becasue I handed them a reason on a silver platter.
Each kid needs different things at different times. The key to being "fair" is making sure you do for each child evenly when that time arises. When on child turns 16, if you hand them the keys to a brand new car, you had better be ready to do the same for the next child when they turn 16.

Well, you raise your kids your way and I will raise my kids my way. If they want to Boo Freaking Hoo, then let them Boo Freaking Hoo.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

No, I don't have to do things "evenly'. See my life is much easier because I don't feel the need to keep score. And, maybe your kids keep score but mine don't. And, when my son was diagnosed with celiacs, sorry, life isn't fair. And, yes, I made gluten free food for him and didn't keep his fave gluten foods at home. However, life isn't "fair" and that is YOUR issue and no, the whole family does not have to go on a gluten free diet. You have to learn to manage your own issue in the real world.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

People who are raised to keep score are always going to think the score isn't in their favor. If you want to raise entitled brats, that's your choice.

Mary Zombie · Guru

Making sure one sibling isnt always benefitting before the others is not keeping score.
And it seems the ones that aren't the coddled one are always expected to do the hardword in the parents later years. Funny how that seems to work.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Most of my kids' friends are growing up in broken homes with a lot of "issues'. They have a charmed life. If they want to invent things to complain about then that's their prerogative.

Mary Zombie · Guru

Hopefully one of them doesn't ever feel the way I did. You can be as right as you want to be but I'm sure my parents didn't understand my emotional distance the last few years.
Too bad.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
People who are raised to keep score are always going to think the score isn't in their favor. If you want to raise entitled brats, that's your choice.

First of all, my children are not entitled brats and it's rude of you to say otherwise when you don't even know them.

My kids don't keep score - they don't have to. They know it's fair through years of experience. The kids who keep score are the kids who get screwed over year after year at holidays and birthdays. They watch what their siblings get and compare it to what they get and they don't have to tally up the dollar amount to know they aren't loved. It's evident in the presents they get.

I am NOT saying you don't love your kids, I am not even saying you are a bad parent. What I am saying is, your actions MAY have unintended consequences that you don't even realize. What you do for your children, makes them have feelings that you cannot control. And you can raise them with all the love in the world, but when one kids gets something significant that the other kids don't it creates bad feelings - even if you don't mean it to. Even if you have all the best intentions and reasons in the world.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

My FIL made a remark once about how he didn't believe in "keeping track" of how much he spent on Christmas presents and didn't worry about keeping it even. He happened to say this to my mother who is adamant about keeping things equitable when she gives gifts. She told my FIL that she understands where he is coming from, but doesn't he think the kids feel bad when they see expensive gifts being given to a sibling or a cousin while they get an inexpensive gift? He said it honestly never occurred to him that the children would feel slighted. It was a lightbulb moment for him and he has tried to be much better since.

I just don't understand how someone doesn't think it will cause bad feelings. Hell yeah I felt like sh!t when my sister in law got a brand new digital camera (when they were new) and I got slippers. It was a smack in the face that symbolized how much they don't care about my family and our feelings. And when her family all got individualized expensive gifts, carefully thought out and researched and my kids got a $25 gift card - yeah, my kids felt like sh!t. Especially when all day we heard about how long it took to personalize the gifts to the others and how much time it took to find exactly the right item etc. You can't do things like that and think people don't notice or don't care.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Proves the adage "a fool and his money are soon parted".

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Mellow Momma wrote:

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
People who are raised to keep score are always going to think the score isn't in their favor. If you want to raise entitled brats, that's your choice.
First of all, my children are not entitled brats and it's rude of you to say otherwise when you don't even know them.
My kids don't keep score - they don't have to. They know it's fair through years of experience. The kids who keep score are the kids who get screwed over year after year at holidays and birthdays. They watch what their siblings get and compare it to what they get and they don't have to tally up the dollar amount to know they aren't loved. It's evident in the presents they get.
I am NOT saying you don't love your kids, I am not even saying you are a bad parent. What I am saying is, your actions MAY have unintended consequences that you don't even realize. What you do for your children, makes them have feelings that you cannot control. And you can raise them with all the love in the world, but when one kids gets something significant that the other kids don't it creates bad feelings - even if you don't mean it to. Even if you have all the best intentions and reasons in the world.

Lol! You guys are the ones who keep presuming that I am somehow shortchanging my kids and that that I can't tell them how to feel blah, blah.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Mellow Momma wrote:

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
People who are raised to keep score are always going to think the score isn't in their favor. If you want to raise entitled brats, that's your choice.
""First of all, my children are not entitled brats and it's rude of you to say otherwise when you don't even know them.""

And, it is equally rude to assume that my parenting is some how problematic if I don't stand by with a calculator every second of the day.

-- Edited by Lady Gaga Snerd on Saturday 17th of October 2015 06:13:05 PM

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

My point is that you don't have to sit around calculating and agonizing and running up some accounting to treat your kids well. And, no everything isn't "equal" and it will never be. Sorry. DD is going to own more pairs of shoes than the boys. That's life. They have a lot more video games or whatever. But, to say I HAVE to spend $155.99 on my child who really, really wants something that is $29 and is completely thrilled and happy with that just because I spent $155.99 on one of my other kids THIS particular year seems nonsensical to me. And, I am not going to spend money to just spend money over some type of "fairness illusion".

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

As for "helping" one adult child versus another. Well, if one went to college, that is very expensive. And, if you are paying for that and room and board and a lot of other expenses and that child gets on his feet. And, then you have another who doesn't go to college but struggles with lower paying jobs, etc. then why is the college educated one doing the "not fair" dance? Is that really any different finance wise? It may or may not be.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Mellow Momma wrote:
I try to keep things as equal as possible because I know how it feels to sit and watch one person get an expensive camera while you get slippers. It hurts.

Growing up, DH was treated like a second class citizen while his brothers were doted on. He got jumper cables one year for Christmas (he didn't even own a car and only drove the family car only in emergencies) and his brothers each got a brand new TV for their rooms. So while the money spent may have been equal (it wasn't, but I am giving my in laws the benefit of the doubt) the sentiment certainly wasn't. And yes, your kids can tell when you don't care. And yes, it hurts like hell and it has nothing to do with being entitled and everything to do with being human.

I understand your reasoning Gaga and I think it's great that YOUR kids act like they don't care or notice. But that doesn't mean they don't care and notice. It really hurts when one child gets more than the others. It may wash out in the end, but who wants to be the kid that has to wait for it to even out while the others have the newest thing? And to be clear, I am not talking about needs like supplies for school or sports, I am talking about gifts.

Preaching to the choir!

DH1 had one younger brother...He could do no wrong & his mother could not have cared less if anyone knew that R was the favorite.

At one point, my heart was ripped out of my chest when I saw DH1 moved to tears, claiming: "I'm a fvckup, just like my mom always said."

flan

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I have three kids and every Christmas my parents send ONE of them a gift certificate. Yeah, it sucks.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

Flan I totally empathize with you. When I opened my slippers, DH leaned over and said "I am sorry you married the brother that no one cares about".

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Mellow Momma wrote:
Flan I totally empathize with you. When I opened my slippers, DH leaned over and said "I am sorry you married the brother that no one cares about".

DH1 would have cut off his right hand to get his Mom to love him.

In the end, my MIL died bitter & alone.

flan

NAOW · Vette's SS

All of these situations are when parents clearly favored one child (or children) over another and didn't care to hide it. I think that makes all the difference.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

NAOW wrote:
All of these situations are when parents clearly favored one child (or children) over another and didn't care to hide it. I think that makes all the difference.

But I think what some are trying to say is to the other kids, his daughters siblings, letting this debt go can lead to bad feelings among the siblings.

Tinydancer · Guru

OMG. My money is my money. Sometimes my dd needs help and some times my ds needs help. In every situation I make decisions as to who needs what. If either of them want's to complain then they can just take care of it themselves. Grow the hell up and take care of it yourself if you can't get me to pay for it. I refuse to give everyone a ribbon.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. Or maybe you just like stirring the pot. He needs to make the daughter pay this money back. If you, general you, cannot see that constantly bailing one child out and not the others will set the stage for hard feelings then I don't know what to tell you. The fact of the matter is, it does. So if that's the message you want to send to your kids just remember you reap what sow.

Tinydancer · Guru

I don't misunderstand at all. I'm not stirring the pot no matter how you'd like to paint it. Where did I say I was bailing out one child? My kids know I'm there if they need me for a reasonable request. Don't project your issues onto everyone else and I won't project my issues on you. Geeesh!

Tinydancer · Guru

I say now and will always say don't lend money to family that you can't afford to lose. Do whatever works for you NJN.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Already do.

Tinydancer · Guru

So what's with accusing me of stirring the pot? Am I not allowed an opinion or are YOU stirring the pot?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

It's really not a hard solution. This is a loan, and she owes it. When they die - she will still owe it to the estate. It comes out of her share of any inheritance. She doesn't get out of her debt simply b/c her parents die. And they need to stop giving her any more money. Period. They have raised an entitled brat, and they need to own that - but that doesn't mean she gets off the hook b/c making her pay it back is the responsible thing to do.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. Or maybe you just like stirring the pot. He needs to make the daughter pay this money back. If you, general you, cannot see that constantly bailing one child out and not the others will set the stage for hard feelings then I don't know what to tell you. The fact of the matter is, it does. So if that's the message you want to send to your kids just remember you reap what sow.

flan

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

My ex husband's grandparents bailed their adult children out of tough situations from time to time. When they did they put an equal amount of money in a special account for the others. No one even knew they were doing it for a very long time.

Southern_Belle · Nothing's Impossible

My brother lives in my dad's house for free. Dad could sell that house and have a lot less to worry about since he lives elsewhere. Brother's health is bad. He works but only earns enough to pay his personal experiences. Dad pays everything else. My sisters and I don't look at it as taking from our cut. If dad left him the house no one would bat an eye. We would try to figure out how to help brother keep the house.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Southern_Belle wrote:
My brother lives in my dad's house for free. Dad could sell that house and have a lot less to worry about since he lives elsewhere. Brother's health is bad. He works but only earns enough to pay his personal experiences. Dad pays everything else. My sisters and I don't look at it as taking from our cut. If dad left him the house no one would bat an eye. We would try to figure out how to help brother keep the house.

And that is a different situation than the OP. Your brother is sick. My kids know my DS will always live at home rent free. Not because we favor him but because his options are limited. So they don't see it as unfair. In fact, they feel sorry he doesn't have the freedom they do.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:

It's really not a hard solution. This is a loan, and she owes it. When they die - she will still owe it to the estate. It comes out of her share of any inheritance. She doesn't get out of her debt simply b/c her parents die. And they need to stop giving her any more money. Period. They have raised an entitled brat, and they need to own that - but that doesn't mean she gets off the hook b/c making her pay it back is the responsible thing to do.

Well, you can say that but who is going to enforce that? If there isnt' some contract whereby she is legally bound to repay them, then good luck with that. You will spend more on lawyers trying to get blood out of a stone than it's worth.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

It's really not a hard solution. This is a loan, and she owes it. When they die - she will still owe it to the estate. It comes out of her share of any inheritance. She doesn't get out of her debt simply b/c her parents die. And they need to stop giving her any more money. Period. They have raised an entitled brat, and they need to own that - but that doesn't mean she gets off the hook b/c making her pay it back is the responsible thing to do.

Well, you can say that but who is going to enforce that? If there isnt' some contract whereby she is legally bound to repay them, then good luck with that. You will spend more on lawyers trying to get blood out of a stone than it's worth.

That is what a will is for. We put these clauses in all the time - it's not difficult.

Mary Zombie · Guru

That's assuming the parents would actually address that in their will. If they are blind enough to keep enabling I doubt they will think to change their will. Like welcome to my world.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

If the loans were in writing - that's still actually enough. A personal representative would have the promissory notes and be able to use them to offset an inheritance.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:

If the loans were in writing - that's still actually enough. A personal representative would have the promissory notes and be able to use them to offset an inheritance.

Well, they don't sound too swift. They didnt' specify any dollar amount. And, they keep funding her. I highly doubt they have the wherewithal to go change their will.

Mary Zombie · Guru

I am discovering that even when things are in writing it still takes a ridiculous amount of time and sometimes the moocher still gets more.

But if the loans are in writing....that's at least something.

Yes I know I'm projecting a bit but I am in the middle of crap right now. Hopefully it will be settled in a month or two!

huskerbb · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
huskerbb wrote:

Tinydancer wrote:
I don't think LGS meant she favored one over the other. Just that she doesn't dwell on who got what.
She probably doesn't--most parents don't--but that doesn't mean the kids don't notice.

Notice what? I know that we treat our kids with love and fairness and do whatever we can to get them on track in life. If they want to gin up some imaginary slights and offenses, not sure what we can really do about that. Or, should we go ask their permission every time we buy a jacket for one of them?
That won't happen if fairness is actually part of the equation.

I disagree. When kids are raised as entitled greedy monsters, nothing is ever "fair" in their eyes.
You don't get to control how they feel about it.

Did I say somewhere that I control how they feel about it? You keep saying that over and over as if that is somehow important.

You are the one who seems to think you know exactly how your kids will feel about it. You don't.

huskerbb · Guru

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. Or maybe you just like stirring the pot. He needs to make the daughter pay this money back. If you, general you, cannot see that constantly bailing one child out and not the others will set the stage for hard feelings then I don't know what to tell you. The fact of the matter is, it does. So if that's the message you want to send to your kids just remember you reap what sow.

Exactly. People think this stuff doesn't matter--but you are setting up your children to have hard feelings between each other after you are gone.

Ohfour · Hooker

Of, FFS.

My mother was and STILL is one of those people that have to spend to the penny on the kids. And everyone has to have the exact same amount of gifts. My sister and I HATED that growing up. Now her grandkids do too. It's taxing on everyone. It makes the day burdensome on everyone.

We don't match dollar for dollar. We don't match gift for gift. The kids don't care. We get them what they want and that's enough. Some years we spend more on one, the next year less.

When DD graduated, we were in a tough spot financially. She got a nice set of luggage.

When DS graduated 4 years later, we were doing MUCH better financially. He got $2500 for graduation. But the next year, I paid for her wedding.

I got a truck for my 16th bday. When my sister turned 16, my father was on a bender, unemployed, and would die a couple of months later. She understood...

It's all about what you can do when you can do it. And if your kids get all butt hurt, that's on you...

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Ohfour wrote:
Of, FFS.

My mother was and STILL is one of those people that have to spend to the penny on the kids. And everyone has to have the exact same amount of gifts. My sister and I HATED that growing up. Now her grandkids do too. It's taxing on everyone. It makes the day burdensome on everyone.

We don't match dollar for dollar. We don't match gift for gift. The kids don't care. We get them what they want and that's enough. Some years we spend more on one, the next year less.

When DD graduated, we were in a tough spot financially. She got a nice set of luggage.

When DS graduated 4 years later, we were doing MUCH better financially. He got $2500 for graduation. But the next year, I paid for her wedding.

I got a truck for my 16th bday. When my sister turned 16, my father was on a bender, unemployed, and would die a couple of months later. She understood...

It's all about what you can do when you can do it. And if your kids get all butt hurt, that's on you...

In many families, yes, BUT there are dysfunctional parents who favor one child to a ridiculous extent. There are at least 3 examples on this thread.

flan

Tinydancer · Guru

Well you're all grown up now. Isn't it time to get over it?

Ohfour · Hooker

And some people see favoritism where there is none.

My aunt and uncle have 2 daughters, Liz and Kate.

Kate got pregnant right out of high school, moved out of state, got married to a LOSER. Well when the baby was about a year old, she packed up and moved back home. His parents paid for him to fight her tooth and nail over custody. Since they lived out of state, aunt and uncle had to hire an out of state lawyer and had to travel for court hearings. They spent a pretty penny making sure Kate got custody and was allowed to move back home.

Fast forward 5 years and Liz got married. For a wedding present, they gave her 15K towards a down payment on a home.

Well, when Kate decided to buy, she expected the same. They told her that they had spent her money on getting custody.

She is still angry with them to this day. She says that the two are not the same, that her getting custody should not mean that she doesn't get help with a house. That they should have paid for the lawyer because they love her son...