TOTALLY GEEKED!

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

RE: Staying With the Anti-Choice Doctor

Lindley · Guru

I agree tang, I don't ask couples when are they going to have kids or another one. You never know if it would be painful for them. I wouldn't even ask my own children that question.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Tangerine wrote:
I would like to add that asking people when they are going to have another baby is not nearly as cute as people seem to think it is.
That's all.

I have to sheepishly admit that I do do this. Usually in a joking way. Like when parents start complaining about everything I'll say, "Now's the time to have another then!" Or when they say they have everything totally together and handled. Then I'll say, "This is when you have another!" I don't even think about it but now that you said something I realize that it could be really rude.

Thank you for sharing your story. I am very anti abortion but I still would not think badly of you if you told me that. Well, I guess you just did. If a baby is not going to be viable after it's born it's perfectly understandable that you would not want to wait to deliver. I can't imagine what you went through.

ed11563 · Guru

lilyofcourse wrote:
Look it up.

I went to their website and looked it up.

They do use the 5% figure, and cite a 2012 reference. So I looked up their reference.

There is nothing in that reference that talks about the 5% figure, or anything else about the percentage of rape victims who become pregnant as a result.

They DO say that pregnant women are at higher risk of being raped.

Tinydancer · Guru

flan327 wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
chef wrote:
Tinydancer wrote:
chef wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
You are deflecting.

I want adults to be responsible.

Not Kill a baby cause they couldn't be bothered to use birth control.
Yes.
And, because it will come up, what do you say about women who did use BC but got pregnant anyway?
Either face up to having a baby or put it up for adoption. It's not like you (general you) are shunned if you're an unwed mother these days. That's what the answer should be, not killing your child. You'll never get the pro-choicers to give anyone but themselves a choice. Certainly not the baby or even the fathers.

-- Edited by Tinydancer on Thursday 29th of October 2015 03:37:03 PM
With very, very few exceptions, I agree.
The big exception I make is for babies conceived through rape. It's still a baby and I don't (and have never) deny that. The reason I make the exception is because I feel it's a slap in the face to the victim to further victimize her by forcing her to carry a baby. I just can't get myself to be ok with telling a rape victim 'too bad, so sad, you're now pregnant and must carry this baby'.
Sorry. I still don't agree with abortion.
It is a baby. And it deserves a chance to live.
That is inhumane.
flan

" I do not think that word means what you think it means". Wow I thought you were a Librarian. You actually think it's inhumane means people who find it repugnant have no human feelings? Is that sort of like if you kill a fetus it's not a baby?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Ignore me, FFS.

flan

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

I have nothing to add. I just want to say FFS. Carry on with your debate.

Tinydancer · Guru

Tangerine wrote:
What the heck. I'm gonna jump in here with my story.
Anencephaly. Look it up.
Who among you thinks they have the right to tell me that I should be forced to carry to term a baby that has no chance of living more than a few very painful days?
Why should I or anyone in that situation be forced to endure another 20 weeks of pregnancy just to watch my baby die in a horrific way?

Can you really say there is never a reason to have an abortion?

I am very sorry to hear this Tang. I don't believe someone who called their child a baby (not fetus) was doing anything but what was good for their baby. Anencephaly is a devastating diagnosis. It's a courageous decision in the face of bad choices but I refuse to believe abortion because it's uncomfortable is in any way comparable. My condolences to you on hearing of this.

Tinydancer · Guru

Ah if we say FFS it makes us part of some club? Got it now.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Tangerine wrote:
What the heck. I'm gonna jump in here with my story.
Anencephaly. Look it up.
Who among you thinks they have the right to tell me that I should be forced to carry to term a baby that has no chance of living more than a few very painful days?
Why should I or anyone in that situation be forced to endure another 20 weeks of pregnancy just to watch my baby die in a horrific way?

Can you really say there is never a reason to have an abortion?

That is a VERY different situation from elective abortion.

I don't understand why on earth ANYONE would compare the two.

I've seen it. My best friend had a baby sith that. She carried him to term and held him while he died.

So don't go trying to confuse or muddy the waters with something like this.

Elective abortion because the baby is just not convenient is wrong.

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Tinydancer wrote:
Ah if we say FFS it makes us part of some club? Got it now.

Actually it wasn't some secret club indoctrination at all. It was simply my attempt at levity.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Tinydancer wrote:
Ah if we say FFS it makes us part of some club? Got it now.
Actually it wasn't some secret club indoctrination at all. It was simply my attempt at levity.

We don't have a head-banging emoticon.

Same difference...

flan

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

flan327 wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Tinydancer wrote:
Ah if we say FFS it makes us part of some club? Got it now.
Actually it wasn't some secret club indoctrination at all. It was simply my attempt at levity.
We don't have a head-banging emoticon.
Same difference...
flan

Fine. If you're going to twist my arm I just wanted to up my post count. FFS do I have to explain everything?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

I hate you so much right now!

flan

Nobody Just Nobody · Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

Haters gonna hate!

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

You know, stories like Tangs,which are just so heartbreaking, is the reason I have the 25 week cutoff for abortion.
90% of all abortions happen before 13 weeks, but ones that happen later, especially ones that happen after 20 weeks, (which only account for 1% of all abortions) are generally because the prenatal tests showed something very wrong.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
You know, stories like Tangs,which are just so heartbreaking, is the reason I have the 25 week cutoff for abortion.
90% of all abortions happen before 13 weeks, but ones that happen later, especially ones that happen after 20 weeks, (which only account for 1% of all abortions) are generally because the prenatal tests showed something very wrong.

A baby is viable at 25 weeks, which means it can live outside the womb. Prenatal testing is done WELL before that.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

And some things can't be seen until 20 weeks. It is one percent of abortions. And I forget the exact ratio, but it was something like 98 percent of all abortions in that one percent were for medical reasons. And I have already said I am fine with a 20 week cutoff for non-medical reasons to weed out that 2% of the 1%.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

And again, having an abortion because your baby is basically dead is one thing.

Having an abortion because you just don't want to have the responsibility of a baby is totally different.

2 completely different situations.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
And some things can't be seen until 20 weeks. It is one percent of abortions. And I forget the exact ratio, but it was something like 98 percent of all abortions in that one percent were for medical reasons. And I have already said I am fine with a 20 week cutoff for non-medical reasons to weed out that 2% of the 1%.

REPORTED abortions. Let's not forget doctors like Gosnell.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.

Tangerine · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.

That is still considered an elective abortion for medical reasons.

The problem is that many of the laws banning abortions DON'T contain appropriate language to provide for EXCEPTIONS like that.

My point is that these sort of decisions should be between a woman and her doctor and everyone else should keep their opinions out of the laws regarding medical procedures.

Ohfour · Hooker

Tangerine wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.
That is still considered an elective abortion for medical reasons.
The problem is that many of the laws banning abortions DON'T contain appropriate language to provide for EXCEPTIONS like that.
My point is that these sort of decisions should be between a woman and her doctor and everyone else should keep their opinions out of the laws regarding medical procedures.

That's never going to happen. I will ALWAYS fight for the ones that have no voices. The laws are getting stricter every year. Without us voicing our "opinions", that would not happen. I will continue to be vocal and will address it every chance I get...

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Sure, if you're also going to agree to RAISE every single one of them as well.

flan

Tangerine · Guru

Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.
That is still considered an elective abortion for medical reasons.
The problem is that many of the laws banning abortions DON'T contain appropriate language to provide for EXCEPTIONS like that.
My point is that these sort of decisions should be between a woman and her doctor and everyone else should keep their opinions out of the laws regarding medical procedures.
That's never going to happen. I will ALWAYS fight for the ones that have no voices. The laws are getting stricter every year. Without us voicing our "opinions", that would not happen. I will continue to be vocal and will address it every chance I get...

I understand that you have very strong feelings about what other people should and shouldn't do. I disagree with you attempting force your opinions on everyone and nothing will ever make me change my mind about that.

Ohfour · Hooker

Tangerine wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.
That is still considered an elective abortion for medical reasons.
The problem is that many of the laws banning abortions DON'T contain appropriate language to provide for EXCEPTIONS like that.
My point is that these sort of decisions should be between a woman and her doctor and everyone else should keep their opinions out of the laws regarding medical procedures.
That's never going to happen. I will ALWAYS fight for the ones that have no voices. The laws are getting stricter every year. Without us voicing our "opinions", that would not happen. I will continue to be vocal and will address it every chance I get...
I understand that you have very strong feelings about what other people should and shouldn't do. I disagree with you attempting force your opinions on everyone and nothing will ever make me change my mind about that.

You are wrong. I have very strong feelings about babies whose mother wants to kill them. The women are not my concern...

Tangerine · Guru

Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.
That is still considered an elective abortion for medical reasons.
The problem is that many of the laws banning abortions DON'T contain appropriate language to provide for EXCEPTIONS like that.
My point is that these sort of decisions should be between a woman and her doctor and everyone else should keep their opinions out of the laws regarding medical procedures.
That's never going to happen. I will ALWAYS fight for the ones that have no voices. The laws are getting stricter every year. Without us voicing our "opinions", that would not happen. I will continue to be vocal and will address it every chance I get...
I understand that you have very strong feelings about what other people should and shouldn't do. I disagree with you attempting force your opinions on everyone and nothing will ever make me change my mind about that.
You are wrong. I have very strong feelings about babies whose mother wants to kill them. The women are not my concern...

Clearly. Since you seem more than happy to turn them into unwilling incubators with no autonomy.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Tangerine wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.
That is still considered an elective abortion for medical reasons.
The problem is that many of the laws banning abortions DON'T contain appropriate language to provide for EXCEPTIONS like that.
My point is that these sort of decisions should be between a woman and her doctor and everyone else should keep their opinions out of the laws regarding medical procedures.
That's never going to happen. I will ALWAYS fight for the ones that have no voices. The laws are getting stricter every year. Without us voicing our "opinions", that would not happen. I will continue to be vocal and will address it every chance I get...
I understand that you have very strong feelings about what other people should and shouldn't do. I disagree with you attempting force your opinions on everyone and nothing will ever make me change my mind about that.
You are wrong. I have very strong feelings about babies whose mother wants to kill them. The women are not my concern...
Clearly. Since you seem more than happy to turn them into unwilling incubators with no autonomy.

flan

Ohfour · Hooker

Tangerine wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.
That is still considered an elective abortion for medical reasons.
The problem is that many of the laws banning abortions DON'T contain appropriate language to provide for EXCEPTIONS like that.
My point is that these sort of decisions should be between a woman and her doctor and everyone else should keep their opinions out of the laws regarding medical procedures.
That's never going to happen. I will ALWAYS fight for the ones that have no voices. The laws are getting stricter every year. Without us voicing our "opinions", that would not happen. I will continue to be vocal and will address it every chance I get...
I understand that you have very strong feelings about what other people should and shouldn't do. I disagree with you attempting force your opinions on everyone and nothing will ever make me change my mind about that.
You are wrong. I have very strong feelings about babies whose mother wants to kill them. The women are not my concern...
Clearly. Since you seem more than happy to turn them into unwilling incubators with no autonomy.

Absolutely. Until the child is born, their bodies are responsible for the well being of that child. To want to kill it makes them unworthy of any respect. No mother with a conscious would kill her child.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.
That is still considered an elective abortion for medical reasons.
The problem is that many of the laws banning abortions DON'T contain appropriate language to provide for EXCEPTIONS like that.
My point is that these sort of decisions should be between a woman and her doctor and everyone else should keep their opinions out of the laws regarding medical procedures.
That's never going to happen. I will ALWAYS fight for the ones that have no voices. The laws are getting stricter every year. Without us voicing our "opinions", that would not happen. I will continue to be vocal and will address it every chance I get...
I understand that you have very strong feelings about what other people should and shouldn't do. I disagree with you attempting force your opinions on everyone and nothing will ever make me change my mind about that.
You are wrong. I have very strong feelings about babies whose mother wants to kill them. The women are not my concern...
Clearly. Since you seem more than happy to turn them into unwilling incubators with no autonomy.

Absolutely. Until the child is born, their bodies are responsible for the well being of that child. To want to kill it makes them unworthy of any respect. No mother with a conscious would kill her child.

You cannot expect anyone to take you seriously after making a statement like that.

flan

chef · Guru

Unwilling incubators? No. They became willing incubators when they chose to have sex. Pregnancy is a well-known consequence of sex. It is also well-known that sometimes bc can fail.

Ohfour · Hooker

I absolutely can. There are a LOT of people that feel this way...

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

And how many women have you personally talked to regarding their reasons for having an abortion? How did they feel afterwards? Would they have done anything differently?

flan

Ohfour · Hooker

flan327 wrote:
And how many women have you personally talked to regarding their reasons for having an abortion? How did they feel afterwards? Would they have done anything differently?

flan

There is no valid reason, other than the life of the mother/child. I don't know anyone that doesn't regret it. And If they DIDN'T regret it, they would no longer be my friend. I don't associate with people like that...

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Ohfour wrote:
flan327 wrote:
And how many women have you personally talked to regarding their reasons for having an abortion? How did they feel afterwards? Would they have done anything differently?

flan
There is no valid reason, other than the life of the mother/child. I don't know anyone that doesn't regret it. And If they DIDN'T regret it, they would no longer be my friend. I don't associate with people like that...

Ben Carson would disagree with you...

flan

Tangerine · Guru

Because they chose to have sex? No conscious. Wow.

Bunny should have had a little brother, but he doesn't. We knew there was a risk because of my epilepsy medicine. Apparently we got really lucky with Bunny.
I don't think I am a monster for sparing my family suffering.

I'm done with this thread.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Ohfour wrote:
Tangerine wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
And seriously - that is a very huge EXCEPTION that really has nothing whatsoever to do with ELECTIVE abortions. Those can easily be built into any limitations.
That is still considered an elective abortion for medical reasons.
The problem is that many of the laws banning abortions DON'T contain appropriate language to provide for EXCEPTIONS like that.
My point is that these sort of decisions should be between a woman and her doctor and everyone else should keep their opinions out of the laws regarding medical procedures.
That's never going to happen. I will ALWAYS fight for the ones that have no voices. The laws are getting stricter every year. Without us voicing our "opinions", that would not happen. I will continue to be vocal and will address it every chance I get...

This.

And I have NEVER heard of a doctor forcing a woman to carry to term what is essentially a dead baby.

It's labeled a D&C and taken care of.

Yes. My aunt had to have one after her baby died. It stopped developing around week 20.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Again.

The difference is as wide as the grand canyon.

Abortion because you just don't want to be bothered with a baby. That's one side.

The other side is the tragedy of women who wanted their baby but because of serious medical complications, they can't.

And being responsible NOT to get pregnant in the first place is a massive step toward not killing a baby because you just don't want it.

Riding · Guru

lilyofcourse wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

Absolutely. Know how many murders we've had in the past 5 years? 1. A moral society is a safe society. And killing babies is not moral.
It keeps coming back to the question, When does a fetus become a baby?
One group says "at the moment when sperm meets ovum";
One group says "when it takes its' first breath".
And some people have chosen some point in between.

It's a baby the second it is conceived.

I am just to this post, so have not read the other pages yet...but this just jumped out at me. I have five children four I gave birth too, and one my heart picked, and for me, as magical as it was being pregnant and yes I felt pregnant from the moment I knew (sometimes before), I was carrying a baby, and those babies have grown into responsible adults. But my point here, was that this was driven HOME hard to me just a few weeks ago.

these are my thoughts, my opinions, my family.

Our newly 18yoa daughter came to us and told us she was pregnant. My feelings ran all over the place!!! happy, sad, smiles, tears, disappointment, joy...but through out that first few minutes, it never ONCE entered my mind she was not carrying our grandchild, no matter how far along she was ( she was then 5 weeks) happy, well of course another grand baby! sad, she is not ready, not mature, but then who really is ? smiles, MAYBE this time a granddaughter!! tears, OMG what has she done, doesn't she REALIZE the magnitude of the choice she made to become a mother and without a steady partner in her life??? joy....I CANNOT wait to hold and snuggle a child of my child, smell that new baby freshness.

but through it all it never once entered my mind to not love MY child as she shared the news she was carrying her child. When she asked me to go to the doctor with her, I agreed, as I truly am over the moon, but so so worried, but I know realize I cannot change the past or the future, and I will not enable, but I will support, and I WILL pray for her the strength to go on this particular road. (She has always chosen the HARDEST road since she was a little girl)

As she laid there in the darkened room and I sat in a chair watching the tech smear the gel on her tummy and start to look to determine if it was a viable pregnancy (as she was so early, these tests these days are CRAZY fast!!) my DD was laying there wide eyed and watching, I wondered what she thought she was truly going to see?

it was a light colored *blob* among a darker *blob* she said "When will I see my baby?" the tech smiled and said YOU are seeing your baby~

and began to explain in detail what we were seeing and how things were developing. DD looked over at me with her eyes shining with tears and said "Look mom, there's your grandchild" I looked at her through tear blurred eyes and choked out "I see" I felt this odd feeling that took me back to when I told my mom that I was pregnant with DD (my youngest) and while the circumstances I was in when I found out about her were...ummm challenging, my mom was there for me, and I could finally get a better sense of what she felt then.

We then went in and met with nurse etc. and then made appoint for her next appt.

It just felt so surreal. I guess what I am saying is for me, from the minute she told me, I knew it was already my grandchild not a fertilized egg, embryo or any other term used BUT a baby.

She called me a couple days ago and announced her baby was the size of a kidney bean and proceeded to update me on all the miraculous things going on inside her body as he child was growing.

We will be blessed in June with another beautiful grandchild, and I am so happy, yes my child has some maturing and changing to do before her child arrives, but that does not change the situation.

There is much more to this story, but it is not my story to share, so I will not, but I will say more.

My point was for me, a baby starts at conception.

sorry to hijack and get off track, and by now with as many pages as I see this thread has...this may pop up among cookies, silly pets, or manly me!

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Riding wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

Absolutely. Know how many murders we've had in the past 5 years? 1. A moral society is a safe society. And killing babies is not moral.
It keeps coming back to the question, When does a fetus become a baby?
One group says "at the moment when sperm meets ovum";
One group says "when it takes its' first breath".
And some people have chosen some point in between.

It's a baby the second it is conceived.

I am just to this post, so have not read the other pages yet...but this just jumped out at me. I have five children four I gave birth too, and one my heart picked, and for me, as magical as it was being pregnant and yes I felt pregnant from the moment I knew (sometimes before), I was carrying a baby, and those babies have grown into responsible adults. But my point here, was that this was driven HOME hard to me just a few weeks ago.
these are my thoughts, my opinions, my family.
Our newly 18yoa daughter came to us and told us she was pregnant. My feelings ran all over the place!!! happy, sad, smiles, tears, disappointment, joy...but through out that first few minutes, it never ONCE entered my mind she was not carrying our grandchild, no matter how far along she was ( she was then 5 weeks) happy, well of course another grand baby! sad, she is not ready, not mature, but then who really is ? smiles, MAYBE this time a granddaughter!! tears, OMG what has she done, doesn't she REALIZE the magnitude of the choice she made to become a mother and without a steady partner in her life??? joy....I CANNOT wait to hold and snuggle a child of my child, smell that new baby freshness.
but through it all it never once entered my mind to not love MY child as she shared the news she was carrying her child. When she asked me to go to the doctor with her, I agreed, as I truly am over the moon, but so so worried, but I know realize I cannot change the past or the future, and I will not enable, but I will support, and I WILL pray for her the strength to go on this particular road. (She has always chosen the HARDEST road since she was a little girl)
As she laid there in the darkened room and I sat in a chair watching the tech smear the gel on her tummy and start to look to determine if it was a viable pregnancy (as she was so early, these tests these days are CRAZY fast!!) my DD was laying there wide eyed and watching, I wondered what she thought she was truly going to see?
it was a light colored *blob* among a darker *blob* she said "When will I see my baby?" the tech smiled and said YOU are seeing your baby~
and began to explain in detail what we were seeing and how things were developing. DD looked over at me with her eyes shining with tears and said "Look mom, there's your grandchild" I looked at her through tear blurred eyes and choked out "I see" I felt this odd feeling that took me back to when I told my mom that I was pregnant with DD (my youngest) and while the circumstances I was in when I found out about her were...ummm challenging, my mom was there for me, and I could finally get a better sense of what she felt then.
We then went in and met with nurse etc. and then made appoint for her next appt.
It just felt so surreal. I guess what I am saying is for me, from the minute she told me, I knew it was already my grandchild not a fertilized egg, embryo or any other term used BUT a baby.
She called me a couple days ago and announced her baby was the size of a kidney bean and proceeded to update me on all the miraculous things going on inside her body as he child was growing.
We will be blessed in June with another beautiful grandchild, and I am so happy, yes my child has some maturing and changing to do before her child arrives, but that does not change the situation.
There is much more to this story, but it is not my story to share, so I will not, but I will say more.
My point was for me, a baby starts at conception.
sorry to hijack and get off track, and by now with as many pages as I see this thread has...this may pop up among cookies, silly pets, or manly me!

How wonderful! !!!

I got teary reading this.

Babies are blessings.

Ohfour · Hooker

Beautifully expressed Riding...Congrats and prayers for your DD and the baby...

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Tangerine wrote:
Because they chose to have sex? No conscious. Wow.

Bunny should have had a little brother, but he doesn't. We knew there was a risk because of my epilepsy medicine. Apparently we got really lucky with Bunny.
I don't think I am a monster for sparing my family suffering.

I'm done with this thread.

I'm sorry, Bunny.

You are most certainly NOT a monster.

flan

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Riding wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

Absolutely. Know how many murders we've had in the past 5 years? 1. A moral society is a safe society. And killing babies is not moral.
It keeps coming back to the question, When does a fetus become a baby?
One group says "at the moment when sperm meets ovum";
One group says "when it takes its' first breath".
And some people have chosen some point in between.

It's a baby the second it is conceived.

I am just to this post, so have not read the other pages yet...but this just jumped out at me. I have five children four I gave birth too, and one my heart picked, and for me, as magical as it was being pregnant and yes I felt pregnant from the moment I knew (sometimes before), I was carrying a baby, and those babies have grown into responsible adults. But my point here, was that this was driven HOME hard to me just a few weeks ago.
these are my thoughts, my opinions, my family.
Our newly 18yoa daughter came to us and told us she was pregnant. My feelings ran all over the place!!! happy, sad, smiles, tears, disappointment, joy...but through out that first few minutes, it never ONCE entered my mind she was not carrying our grandchild, no matter how far along she was ( she was then 5 weeks) happy, well of course another grand baby! sad, she is not ready, not mature, but then who really is ? smiles, MAYBE this time a granddaughter!! tears, OMG what has she done, doesn't she REALIZE the magnitude of the choice she made to become a mother and without a steady partner in her life??? joy....I CANNOT wait to hold and snuggle a child of my child, smell that new baby freshness.
but through it all it never once entered my mind to not love MY child as she shared the news she was carrying her child. When she asked me to go to the doctor with her, I agreed, as I truly am over the moon, but so so worried, but I know realize I cannot change the past or the future, and I will not enable, but I will support, and I WILL pray for her the strength to go on this particular road. (She has always chosen the HARDEST road since she was a little girl)
As she laid there in the darkened room and I sat in a chair watching the tech smear the gel on her tummy and start to look to determine if it was a viable pregnancy (as she was so early, these tests these days are CRAZY fast!!) my DD was laying there wide eyed and watching, I wondered what she thought she was truly going to see?
it was a light colored *blob* among a darker *blob* she said "When will I see my baby?" the tech smiled and said YOU are seeing your baby~
and began to explain in detail what we were seeing and how things were developing. DD looked over at me with her eyes shining with tears and said "Look mom, there's your grandchild" I looked at her through tear blurred eyes and choked out "I see" I felt this odd feeling that took me back to when I told my mom that I was pregnant with DD (my youngest) and while the circumstances I was in when I found out about her were...ummm challenging, my mom was there for me, and I could finally get a better sense of what she felt then.
We then went in and met with nurse etc. and then made appoint for her next appt.
It just felt so surreal. I guess what I am saying is for me, from the minute she told me, I knew it was already my grandchild not a fertilized egg, embryo or any other term used BUT a baby.
She called me a couple days ago and announced her baby was the size of a kidney bean and proceeded to update me on all the miraculous things going on inside her body as he child was growing.
We will be blessed in June with another beautiful grandchild, and I am so happy, yes my child has some maturing and changing to do before her child arrives, but that does not change the situation.
There is much more to this story, but it is not my story to share, so I will not, but I will say more.
My point was for me, a baby starts at conception.
sorry to hijack and get off track, and by now with as many pages as I see this thread has...this may pop up among cookies, silly pets, or manly me!

Naw, we don't do that crap here.

flan

Riding · Guru

ed11563 wrote:
You might say that God didn't give Man methods to abort babies, that it's the work of the Devil ... but how do you know?
If a fetus is given a Soul at the moment of conception, what happens to the 25% that God kills before birth?

Yes, it's likely that your understanding of God, and my understanding of God, are not the same.

any logic at all behind this blanket statement....just fails me....and explains so much

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Riding wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
You might say that God didn't give Man methods to abort babies, that it's the work of the Devil ... but how do you know?
If a fetus is given a Soul at the moment of conception, what happens to the 25% that God kills before birth?

Yes, it's likely that your understanding of God, and my understanding of God, are not the same.

any logic at all behind this blanket statement....just fails me....and explains so much

Does. Doesn't it?

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

So anyone who holds a different opinion gets mocked!

flan

Lindley · Guru

Riding wrote:
ed11563 wrote:
You might say that God didn't give Man methods to abort babies, that it's the work of the Devil ... but how do you know?
If a fetus is given a Soul at the moment of conception, what happens to the 25% that God kills before birth?

Yes, it's likely that your understanding of God, and my understanding of God, are not the same.

any logic at all behind this blanket statement....just fails me....and explains so much

Ed, to answer your question, I believe babies who are pass away are in Heaven. God does not kill them but bad things happen because we live in a inperfect world. When God created the world it was perfect but when sin entered in because adam and eve disobeyed God was when corruption came to the world. I hope this answers your question.

just Czech · Give Me Grand's!

The soul goes back to God, duh.

Riding · Guru

flan327 wrote:
So anyone who holds a different opinion gets mocked!

flan

I truly apologize, I did not intend to or mean to mock, I just do not understand it. I know we are all entitled to our own thoughts and opinions I have lots and LOTS LOL

I generally keep them to myself, but today I was talking with my other daughter about her little sister, and then this thread and I shared my own experience...guess I was feeling all emotional and spoke before thinking.

Now I better go find a goofy dog picture, I should have taken one of my boxer/American terrier who is 10000% certain she is a Chihuahua like her sibling and what SHE got stuck in last night

I wish everyone peace as I know for me there are shades of gray and yet, I admit I do lean a certain way....

(((HUGS))) to all in the difficult decisions we have all faced

-- Edited by Riding on Friday 30th of October 2015 03:52:29 PM

just Czech · Give Me Grand's!

Tang, you are not a monster.

Riding, you wrote a beautiful real life story, thank you.

And, I should really, I mean really, stay out of this thread.