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Post Info TOPIC: Teacher banned from holding students' hands in a prayer circle before school basketball games


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RE: Teacher banned from holding students' hands in a prayer circle before school basketball games
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Ohfour wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

When teachers lead or participate it gives the feeling that it's mandatory. That's what the difference is.


 You might as well beat your head against a brick wall...

flan


 I don't even know why I piped in on this thread.


Cause evidently you like to be wrong... 


 No.  I'm not wrong.  LL gave you legal reasons.  I don't care what you believe or how rude you are to me about it.  This is not what Christianity is about either.  You cannot shame people, or force people, into believing like you.



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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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The school has the right to tell their teachers not to participate to avoid the appearance so they don't have to defend lawsuits.

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Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

When teachers lead or participate it gives the feeling that it's mandatory. That's what the difference is.


 You might as well beat your head against a brick wall...

flan


 I don't even know why I piped in on this thread.


Cause evidently you like to be wrong... 


 She's not wrong.


 Thank you.



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Well, lookeee here....yet another court ruling.


Like students, teachers do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate. Tinker, 393 U.S. at 506. However, teachers’ rights in the public school are not co-extensive with rights of adults in other settings. Roberts v. Madigan, 921 F.2d 1047, 1056 (10th Cir. 1990). Therefore, whether teachers can actively participate in See You at the Pole depends on whether they are acting in their official capacity or as a citizen.

When teachers acting in their official capacity seek to participate in religious activities, courts typically hold that their free exercise rights can be restricted. Students, parents, or other members of the public may perceive teacher participation as placing the state’s imprimatur on the event. Id. at 1057. A United States District Court found that teachers, in their official capacity, could be present at student prayer at the school flagpole as long as they are acting in a supervisory capacity, without participating in the prayer. Daughtery v. Vanguard Charter Sch. Academy, 116 F. Supp. 2d 897, 910-11 (W.D. Mich. S.D. 2000).

If teachers, however, are acting as citizens, then they can pray at See You at the Pole. The United States Supreme Court has held that teachers cannot be



compelled to relinquish the First Amendment rights they would otherwise enjoy as citizens to comment on matters of public interest in connection with operation of the public school in which they work.


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Hooker

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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

When teachers lead or participate it gives the feeling that it's mandatory. That's what the difference is.


 You might as well beat your head against a brick wall...

flan


 I don't even know why I piped in on this thread.


Cause evidently you like to be wrong... 


 She's not wrong.


 Thank you.


So all these court cases saying that teachers have a constitutional right to See You At The Pole are in my head?  OK...confuse 



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Ohfour wrote:

Well, lookeee here....yet another court ruling.


Like students, teachers do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate. Tinker, 393 U.S. at 506. However, teachers’ rights in the public school are not co-extensive with rights of adults in other settings. Roberts v. Madigan, 921 F.2d 1047, 1056 (10th Cir. 1990). Therefore, whether teachers can actively participate in See You at the Pole depends on whether they are acting in their official capacity or as a citizen.

When teachers acting in their official capacity seek to participate in religious activities, courts typically hold that their free exercise rights can be restricted. Students, parents, or other members of the public may perceive teacher participation as placing the state’s imprimatur on the event. Id. at 1057. A United States District Court found that teachers, in their official capacity, could be present at student prayer at the school flagpole as long as they are acting in a supervisory capacity, without participating in the prayer. Daughtery v. Vanguard Charter Sch. Academy, 116 F. Supp. 2d 897, 910-11 (W.D. Mich. S.D. 2000).

If teachers, however, are acting as citizens, then they can pray at See You at the Pole. The United States Supreme Court has held that teachers cannot be



compelled to relinquish the First Amendment rights they would otherwise enjoy as citizens to comment on matters of public interest in connection with operation of the public school in which they work.


 



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Hooker

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Read the whole thing...

If teachers, however, are acting as citizens, then they can pray at See You at the Pole. The United States Supreme Court has held that teachers cannot be 
compelled to relinquish the First Amendment rights they would otherwise enjoy as citizens to comment on matters of public interest in connection with operation of the public school in which they work.




-- Edited by Ohfour on Monday 14th of December 2015 03:31:36 PM

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It helps when you read what you post.

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Ohfour wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:
flan327 wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

When teachers lead or participate it gives the feeling that it's mandatory. That's what the difference is.


 You might as well beat your head against a brick wall...

flan


 I don't even know why I piped in on this thread.


Cause evidently you like to be wrong... 


 She's not wrong.


 Thank you.


So all these court cases saying that teachers have a constitutional right to See You At The Pole are in my head?  OK...confuse 


 I think they do not say what you think they are saying.  I said when a teacher is attending as a representative of the school and all the cases you quoted back me up.  The ONLY time a teacher can take part is when they are there solely as a person and have no tie to the school activity as a teacher.



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Hooker

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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

It helps when you read what you post.


Yes it does, and obviously, you didn't... 



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Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

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The teachers cannot participate.

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Ohfour wrote:
Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

It helps when you read what you post.


Yes it does, and obviously, you didn't... 


 I can read fine.  Apparently you don't.



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Hooker

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So they can go and hold hands, but just not pray. LOL! Got it...

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Ohfour wrote:

Read the whole thing...

If teachers, however, are acting as citizens, then they can pray at See You at the Pole. The United States Supreme Court has held that teachers cannot be 
compelled to relinquish the First Amendment rights they would otherwise enjoy as citizens to comment on matters of public interest in connection with operation of the public school in which they work.




-- Edited by Ohfour on Monday 14th of December 2015 03:31:36 PM


 And that has no bearing on the OP because the teacher in question was a coach.



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Hooker

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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

The teachers cannot participate.


Yes they can.  And they do.  All the time... 



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He was working.

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Rib-it! Rrrib-it!

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They can be present but not participate which means they cannot join the prayer circle. That would actually mean they were participating.

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I need a drink!

flan

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Hooker

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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

They can be present but not participate which means they cannot join the prayer circle. That would actually mean they were participating.


I'm so glad I don't live in that world...geez... 



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Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

And more:

Background[edit]

In the U.S., school-sponsored prayers in public schools have been found unconstitutional, but prayers organized by students themselves are allowed and protected by free speech rights.[3]

The organization advocating and guiding student participation in SYATP events insists that they be exclusively student-initiated and led without official endorsement or interference, according to rights affirmed by the Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District decision of the U.S. Supreme Court—as well as a 1995 Clinton administration assignment of the President's Secretary of Education for legalization of particular school religious activities as long as they passed constitutional guidelines. The American Civil Liberties Union also approves of student-led SYATP events held before or after school, provided the school neither encourages nor discourages participation.

Pastors, teachers, and other adults are often involved, and critics say that SYATP events often are only nominally student-led


 See the red. 


 Oh know!  Words in red!  lol  smile



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Okay ohfour, have fun. You think you have the right to bull doze everyone with your beliefs. I'm not going to argue with you. Go right ahead. And the next time you start crying foul because the Christians rights are being bull dozed I will not defend you or your cause. I am tired of Christians like you trying to do the same thing to other people that you do not want forced on you. You don't want to bake a cake for someone because it goes against your belief system, too bad. You are now acting just like the people you despise.

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weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

You don't seem to understand freedom of religion.

It means, in America, you have a government protected right to practice your religion. Regardless of what religion that is.

The problems that have been seen are not those trying to stop a Budist from practicing their religion. No one is stopping the Muslims, Hindus, Jewish, Satanic or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

The only one being told not to pray in public, speak in public, being ridiculed or in every other way hindered is the Christian Faith.

Why do you think that is?


 Oh, you don't like Salon? Don't tell me Christians are fine with Satanists trying to practice their religion. That's a load of BS.

If you don't like the following link, I can find 3 dozen more.

-------------

Detroit became a flashpoint over the role of religion in a secular government this weekend, as Satanists unveiled a monument to Baphomet, the Independent reports. Christians protested the display, depicting a human body with a goat's head, wings, accompanied by statues of an adoring girl and boy.

Some reportedly went so far as to threaten to blow up the warehouse hosting Saturday's ceremony.

http://www.advocate.com/religion/2015/07/27/satanic-statue-unveiled-detroit-christians-protest

   

 

 


 Soooo now you are going to quote a Liberal Gay Rights magazine as your "unbiased source"!  OMG, you can't make this stuff up!!!!biggrin



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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

Okay ohfour, have fun. You think you have the right to bull doze everyone with your beliefs. I'm not going to argue with you. Go right ahead. And the next time you start crying foul because the Christians rights are being bull dozed I will not defend you or your cause. I am tired of Christians like you trying to do the same thing to other people that you do not want forced on you. You don't want to bake a cake for someone because it goes against your belief system, too bad. You are now acting just like the people you despise.


 BRAVA!

flan



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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:

And more:

Background[edit]

In the U.S., school-sponsored prayers in public schools have been found unconstitutional, but prayers organized by students themselves are allowed and protected by free speech rights.[3]

The organization advocating and guiding student participation in SYATP events insists that they be exclusively student-initiated and led without official endorsement or interference, according to rights affirmed by the Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District decision of the U.S. Supreme Court—as well as a 1995 Clinton administration assignment of the President's Secretary of Education for legalization of particular school religious activities as long as they passed constitutional guidelines. The American Civil Liberties Union also approves of student-led SYATP events held before or after school, provided the school neither encourages nor discourages participation.

Pastors, teachers, and other adults are often involved, and critics say that SYATP events often are only nominally student-led


 See the red. 


 Oh know!  Words in red!  lol  smile


 See the red...



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Hooker

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Nobody Just Nobody wrote:

Okay ohfour, have fun. You think you have the right to bull doze everyone with your beliefs. I'm not going to argue with you. Go right ahead. And the next time you start crying foul because the Christians rights are being bull dozed I will not defend you or your cause. I am tired of Christians like you trying to do the same thing to other people that you do not want forced on you. You don't want to bake a cake for someone because it goes against your belief system, too bad. You are now acting just like the people you despise.


I'm not bulldozing anybody.  I'm telling you that's how it works here.  If someone has a problem, they can address it.  But when you have 10K people at a football game every Friday night, and they prayer is said over the loudspeaker, there could be complaints.  There aren't.  No one here has a problem with it.  Why do YOU have a problem with what we do? 



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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

You don't seem to understand freedom of religion.

It means, in America, you have a government protected right to practice your religion. Regardless of what religion that is.

The problems that have been seen are not those trying to stop a Budist from practicing their religion. No one is stopping the Muslims, Hindus, Jewish, Satanic or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

The only one being told not to pray in public, speak in public, being ridiculed or in every other way hindered is the Christian Faith.

Why do you think that is?


 Oh, you don't like Salon? Don't tell me Christians are fine with Satanists trying to practice their religion. That's a load of BS.

If you don't like the following link, I can find 3 dozen more.

-------------

Detroit became a flashpoint over the role of religion in a secular government this weekend, as Satanists unveiled a monument to Baphomet, the Independent reports. Christians protested the display, depicting a human body with a goat's head, wings, accompanied by statues of an adoring girl and boy.

Some reportedly went so far as to threaten to blow up the warehouse hosting Saturday's ceremony.

http://www.advocate.com/religion/2015/07/27/satanic-statue-unveiled-detroit-christians-protest

   

 

 


 Soooo now you are going to quote a Liberal Gay Rights magazine as your "unbiased source"!  OMG, you can't make this stuff up!!!!biggrin


Here, take your pick. Over 86,000 results.

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ACAW_enCA440CA440&q=christians+protest+++baphomet

 

 



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What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?

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weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


 God has NOTHING else on his mind but a stupid football game...

flan



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weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 



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flan327 wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


 God has NOTHING else on his mind but a stupid football game...

flan


It's not about the game.  It's about fellowship and safety. 

 



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Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


 I bet some of them pray to win.  LOL.



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Ohfour wrote:
flan327 wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


 God has NOTHING else on his mind but a stupid football game...

flan


It's not about the game.  It's about fellowship and safety.  And God has EVERYONE on his mind.  Even stupid football players...

 


 



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Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


 I bet some of them pray to win.  LOL.


LOL!  Well, I meant over the sound system...I'm sure there are some prayers for winning...biggrin 



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Lawyerlady wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


 I bet some of them pray to win.  LOL.


 LMAO Every sports prayer I've ever heard has some form of help us win in victory... speech.



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Where I live The school and community doesn't care if the Teachers Pray with their students at the meet at the pole. It is a small town and no one complains. They even allow Christian speakers to come and talk to the students during assembly. I think Oh fours community is like that and that was what she was trying to say.

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Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


Gosh, I see it really works.

The article I posted...the one where both football teams took a knee at the 33 yard line to pray for a kid that was seriously injured the week before?

 

 

 



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flan327 wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


 God has NOTHING else on his mind but a stupid football game...

flan


I don't think He really cares who wins but I see nothing wrong with Praying for their safety and to play their best.  I do have a confession to make. When I was in High School I use to Pray to win.    



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Lindley wrote:
flan327 wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


 God has NOTHING else on his mind but a stupid football game...

flan


I don't think He really cares who wins but I see nothing wrong with Praying for their safety and to play their best.  I do have a confession to make. When I was in High School I use to Pray to win.    


 See!  I told you some of them pray to win!



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weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


Gosh, I see it really works.

The article I posted...the one where both football teams took a knee at the 33 yard line to pray for a kid that was seriously injured the week before?

 

 

 


I didn't say that prayers are always answered.   



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Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


Gosh, I see it really works.

The article I posted...the one where both football teams took a knee at the 33 yard line to pray for a kid that was seriously injured the week before?

 

 

 


I didn't say that prayers are always answered.   


So, whether you pray or not, kids will still get hurt. So why bother? It's irrational and illogical. 



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weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


Gosh, I see it really works.

The article I posted...the one where both football teams took a knee at the 33 yard line to pray for a kid that was seriously injured the week before?

 

 

 


I didn't say that prayers are always answered.   


So, whether you pray or not, kids will still get hurt. So why bother? It's irrational and illogical. 


I've told you before, prayer doesn't change God, it changes me.   



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Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


Gosh, I see it really works.

The article I posted...the one where both football teams took a knee at the 33 yard line to pray for a kid that was seriously injured the week before?

 

 

 


I didn't say that prayers are always answered.   


So, whether you pray or not, kids will still get hurt. So why bother? It's irrational and illogical. 


I've told you before, prayer doesn't change God, it changes me.   


Got it...so prayer will not keep kids safe from injuries. 



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weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


Gosh, I see it really works.

The article I posted...the one where both football teams took a knee at the 33 yard line to pray for a kid that was seriously injured the week before?

 

 

 


I didn't say that prayers are always answered.   


So, whether you pray or not, kids will still get hurt. So why bother? It's irrational and illogical. 


I've told you before, prayer doesn't change God, it changes me.   


Got it...so prayer will not keep kids safe from injuries. 


I believe it does.  Not all of them all the time, but for the most part...



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Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:
Ohfour wrote:
weltschmerz wrote:

What are the football teams praying for, anyway? To win? What if the other team prays harder?


They pray for the safety of the coaches and the players.  They never pray to win. 


Gosh, I see it really works.

The article I posted...the one where both football teams took a knee at the 33 yard line to pray for a kid that was seriously injured the week before?

 

 

 


I didn't say that prayers are always answered.   


So, whether you pray or not, kids will still get hurt. So why bother? It's irrational and illogical. 


I've told you before, prayer doesn't change God, it changes me.   


Got it...so prayer will not keep kids safe from injuries. 


I believe it does.  Not all of them all the time, but for the most part...


So, if God decides Number 43 is going to blow out a knee or suffer a concussion, your interference will change his mind?



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Hooker

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I don't even try to know God's thinking, but it doesn't hurt now does it?

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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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Sometimes, an injury can be an answer to another prayer.

Adversity is also how we grow our faith.

It's easy to trust God when everything is rainbows and kittens.

It's when we are in the valley that we learn to lean on God. To trust God.



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Guru

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lilyofcourse wrote:

Sometimes, an injury can be an answer to another prayer.

Adversity is also how we grow our faith.

It's easy to trust God when everything is rainbows and kittens.

It's when we are in the valley that we learn to lean on God. To trust God.


"My son broke his neck playing football and is paralyzed from the waist down! Thank you Jesus!"



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weltschmerz wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:

Sometimes, an injury can be an answer to another prayer.

Adversity is also how we grow our faith.

It's easy to trust God when everything is rainbows and kittens.

It's when we are in the valley that we learn to lean on God. To trust God.


"My son broke his neck playing football and is paralyzed from the waist down! Thank you Jesus!"


That's not unheard of.   God has a way...



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I'm sorry, but that sounds insane.

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My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

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You make fun.

Bad things happen.

How we deal with them is our testimony.



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