TOTALLY GEEKED!

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

RE: Our mentally disabled daughter is pregnant. Should we take her for an abortion?

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

I mean, it isnt like this young lady will suddenly be able to care for a child someday.

huskerbb · Guru

Tinydancer wrote:
Dona keeps saying she thinks an abortion is wrong in this case too. There are other forms of birth control that don't involve surgery so what's wrong with using those?

It's doubtful she would use those methods regularly, plus, as we hear all the time, they are not fail safe.

the question is also whether or not she should even reproduce, especially if she already has one child.

huskerbb · Guru

lilyofcourse wrote:
I mean, it isnt like this young lady will suddenly be able to care for a child someday.

We don't know her capabilities, for sure, but undoubtedly she would need a great deal of help--help her parents may or may not be wiling to provide.

msrock · Guru

Dona never said to kill the baby so I'm not sure why Lily keeps saying that over and over. Am I missing something?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
What are you even talking about??
You want to take away her rights. You want to take away her baby.
I think they should use a less invasive, and less permanent form of birth control, and keep the baby, since the already said they can.

Dona, if she is mentally diabled enough to require a legal guardian in adulthood - she doesn't have the same rights as everyone else. She can't enter into contracts, she can't get married without her guardian's permission. And if her mental incapacity is never going to change - she should not be able to have more children she is unable to care for.

msrock · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Um, if she wants to keep her baby, let her.
I can't believe someone is asking if they should force their daughter to get an abortion if she doesn't want one. No. Simple answer.

This is her first post on this thread. She really never changed her stance as far as I can tell. confuse

msrock · Guru

lilyofcourse wrote:
Tinydancer wrote:
Dona keeps saying she thinks an abortion is wrong in this case too. There are other forms of birth control that don't involve surgery so what's wrong with using those?
Other forms of BC is great.
But to say abortion against her will is better than a tubal against her will is just plain backwards.

Who said that?

huskerbb · Guru

I don't know if she should be sterilized. I definitely am not for abortion.

However, the fact is that no matter what, these are not her decisions to make, and that's the best our society can do.

The alternatives are either institutionalizing all disabled people, or cut them loose at 18, or 21, or whatever like everyone else.

Since neither of those are palatable, the current solution is to make someone their legal guardian, usually their parents, and those people get to then make those decisions.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.

Dona, my thinking is that this girl is developmentally disabled to the point that she will ALWAYS be a child - my youngest sister will always be about the mental equivalent of an 11 year old. Children love babies, but that doesn't mean they should be having them. If she is NEVER going to be capable of taking care of a child, why would you want her to have the ability to have one? If her parents die and she has a kid she can't care for, the State is going to take it away, anyway. You really think it's better than she have the ability to birth children only to have them taken away?

That is why this type of decision is left up to her legal guardian - they have to make the decision of what is best for her, regardless of whether it is what she wants.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

msrock wrote:
Dona never said to kill the baby so I'm not sure why Lily keeps saying that over and over. Am I missing something?

She said having a tubal was the EQUIVALENT of having an abortion.

msrock · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.

Well. You can make this statement seem really heartless and over the top if you want, but I get what she's saying here. You people are all ready to sterilize her and you have no idea how mentally disabled this girl really is.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

msrock wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.
Well. You can make this statement seem really heartless and over the top if you want, but I get what she's saying here. You people are all ready to sterilize her and you have no idea how mentally disabled this girl really is.

The OP stated she is incapable of caring for a child. That should be enough information regarding this topic. When dealing with children, or mentally incapacitated adults, you are required to make decisions in their best interests. Even if I believed in abortion - I do not think an abortion would be in her best interest b/c she wouldn't understand WHY and it could easily damage her mentally and emotionally. However, she wouldn't even really need to know or understand what sterilization is.

huskerbb · Guru

msrock wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.
Well. You can make this statement seem really heartless and over the top if you want, but I get what she's saying here. You people are all ready to sterilize her and you have no idea how mentally disabled this girl really is.

We don't--but as far as who gets to make the decision, it doesn't matter.

However, she doesn't know, either, so that argument wrks both ways.

msrock · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
msrock wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.
Well. You can make this statement seem really heartless and over the top if you want, but I get what she's saying here. You people are all ready to sterilize her and you have no idea how mentally disabled this girl really is.
The OP stated she is incapable of caring for a child. That should be enough information regarding this topic. When dealing with children, or mentally incapacitated adults, you are required to make decisions in their best interests. Even if I believed in abortion - I do not think an abortion would be in her best interest b/c she wouldn't understand WHY and it could easily damage her mentally and emotionally. However, she wouldn't even really need to know or understand what sterilization is.

No. The OP did not state that. It was very vague.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

msrock wrote:
Dona never said to kill the baby so I'm not sure why Lily keeps saying that over and over. Am I missing something?

Dona said forcing sterilization is wrong.

But said forcing abortion is ok.

msrock · Guru

lilyofcourse wrote:
msrock wrote:
Dona never said to kill the baby so I'm not sure why Lily keeps saying that over and over. Am I missing something?
Dona said forcing sterilization is wrong.
But said forcing abortion is ok.

I don't see where she said that.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

lilyofcourse wrote:
msrock wrote:
Dona never said to kill the baby so I'm not sure why Lily keeps saying that over and over. Am I missing something?
Dona said forcing sterilization is wrong.
But said forcing abortion is ok.

No, she didn't.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

msrock wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
msrock wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.
Well. You can make this statement seem really heartless and over the top if you want, but I get what she's saying here. You people are all ready to sterilize her and you have no idea how mentally disabled this girl really is.
The OP stated she is incapable of caring for a child. That should be enough information regarding this topic. When dealing with children, or mentally incapacitated adults, you are required to make decisions in their best interests. Even if I believed in abortion - I do not think an abortion would be in her best interest b/c she wouldn't understand WHY and it could easily damage her mentally and emotionally. However, she wouldn't even really need to know or understand what sterilization is.
No. The OP did not state that. It was very vague.

From the OP it doesnt' sound like she has any idea how she got pregnant or by whom. Soooo, i think that would most likely make her incapable of caring for a child. She isn't self supporting and doesnt' sound like she is going to be. So, sorry she doesnt' sound capable of caring for a child and if she was, I don't think her parents would be writing this letter.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

msrock wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.
Well. You can make this statement seem really heartless and over the top if you want, but I get what she's saying here. You people are all ready to sterilize her and you have no idea how mentally disabled this girl really is.

No. That is the decision of HER parents to make who i assume are her legal guardians.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Dona's words.

And a tubal permanently removes her ability to have kids. I would rather be forced into an abortion than sterilization.

It is getting rid of one child she wants, or getting rid of her ability to ever have children ever, via syrgery.

BOTH ARE WRONG.

Yes. She said both are wrong.

But to say abortion is better than sterilization?

How is that not backwards thinking?

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

lilyofcourse wrote:
Dona's words.
And a tubal permanently removes her ability to have kids. I would rather be forced into an abortion than sterilization.

It is getting rid of one child she wants, or getting rid of her ability to ever have children ever, via syrgery.
BOTH ARE WRONG.

Yes. She said both are wrong.

But to say abortion is better than sterilization?

How is that not backwards thinking?

She said SHE would rather be forced into an abortion than sterilization. But she NEVER said she thought this girl should be forced to have an abortion. In fact, she's been very against it this whole thread. She's just MORE against forced sterilization. Both are bad, in her opinion.

Geez.

msrock · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
msrock wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:
msrock wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.
Well. You can make this statement seem really heartless and over the top if you want, but I get what she's saying here. You people are all ready to sterilize her and you have no idea how mentally disabled this girl really is.
The OP stated she is incapable of caring for a child. That should be enough information regarding this topic. When dealing with children, or mentally incapacitated adults, you are required to make decisions in their best interests. Even if I believed in abortion - I do not think an abortion would be in her best interest b/c she wouldn't understand WHY and it could easily damage her mentally and emotionally. However, she wouldn't even really need to know or understand what sterilization is.
No. The OP did not state that. It was very vague.
From the OP it doesnt' sound like she has any idea how she got pregnant or by whom. Soooo, i think that would most likely make her incapable of caring for a child. She isn't self supporting and doesnt' sound like she is going to be. So, sorry she doesnt' sound capable of caring for a child and if she was, I don't think her parents would be writing this letter.

She's only 18. Are your 18 year olds self supporting? I doubt it. I didn't take the OP as saying she wasn't capable. It was very vague and there's probably good reason for that. The LW almost seemed to be leaning a little more towards having the baby. Like it could be done. I would think if this girl was totally mentally incapacitated he would have stated that more clearly. I took it like she's capable.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

She is 18 and mentally disabled and only understands the basics of what is happening. That's pretty clear. And the fact that they would have the legal right to make this decision for her means she is not capable of making her own decisions.

-- Edited by Lawyerlady on Friday 8th of January 2016 03:38:37 PM

msrock · Guru

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
msrock wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.
Well. You can make this statement seem really heartless and over the top if you want, but I get what she's saying here. You people are all ready to sterilize her and you have no idea how mentally disabled this girl really is.
No. That is the decision of HER parents to make who i assume are her legal guardians.

Well I don't agree with you, with the information we have been given. I need more.

huskerbb · Guru

msrock wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
msrock wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
I don't understand your point. Yes, getting a tubal is ELECTIVE surgery. So what?
So, if daughter doesn't want her ability to have kids permanently taken away, she should not. It is NO better than an abortion.
Well. You can make this statement seem really heartless and over the top if you want, but I get what she's saying here. You people are all ready to sterilize her and you have no idea how mentally disabled this girl really is.
No. That is the decision of HER parents to make who i assume are her legal guardians.
Well I don't agree with you, with the information we have been given. I need more.

Whether or not you agree is irrelevant. That is what the law is.

lilyofcourse · My spirit animal is a pink flamingo.

Lawyerlady wrote:
lilyofcourse wrote:
Dona's words.
And a tubal permanently removes her ability to have kids. I would rather be forced into an abortion than sterilization.

It is getting rid of one child she wants, or getting rid of her ability to ever have children ever, via syrgery.
BOTH ARE WRONG.

Yes. She said both are wrong.

But to say abortion is better than sterilization?

How is that not backwards thinking?

She said SHE would rather be forced into an abortion than sterilization. But she NEVER said she thought this girl should be forced to have an abortion. In fact, she's been very against it this whole thread. She's just MORE against forced sterilization. Both are bad, in her opinion.
Geez.

I don't care if she means herself, the girl in the OP or any one else.

To think abortion, killing a baby, is better than sterilization and preventing a baby, well that's just backwards to me.

msrock · Guru

I'm pretty sure she doesn't think that, but I know you want her to.

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

If my choices were end one pregnancy, but leave my body alone, or get my tubes tied before ever getting pregnant? Yeah. Forced sterilization is horrific.
And it used to be common practice.
Among Native Americans, African Americans, and. . . .the mentally disabled.
Yup.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

How are you leaving your body alone by having an abortion!

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
If my choices were end one pregnancy, but leave my body alone, or get my tubes tied before ever getting pregnant? Yeah. Forced sterilization is horrific.
And it used to be common practice.
Among Native Americans, African Americans, and. . . .the mentally disabled.
Yup.

You are not mentally disabled. And who is going to take care of the children she would have.

Would you honestly rather have children and have them taken away from you? That's cruel.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
If my choices were end one pregnancy, but leave my body alone, or get my tubes tied before ever getting pregnant? Yeah. Forced sterilization is horrific.
And it used to be common practice.
Among Native Americans, African Americans, and. . . .the mentally disabled.
Yup.
You are not mentally disabled. And who is going to take care of the children she would have.

Would you honestly rather have children and have them taken away from you? That's cruel.

And, if she is 18, she can get pregnant again and again and again. So, multiple abortions are ok then? Wow.

huskerbb · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
If my choices were end one pregnancy, but leave my body alone, or get my tubes tied before ever getting pregnant? Yeah. Forced sterilization is horrific.
And it used to be common practice.
Among Native Americans, African Americans, and. . . .the mentally disabled.
Yup.

In this case, it's not "her" choices. They may be a couple of THE choices--but they are not hers to make.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

She cannot care for herself - why should she be permitted to be responsible for another life when she is not capable of being responsible for her own?!?!

huskerbb · Guru

Mellow Momma wrote:
She cannot care for herself - why should she be permitted to be responsible for another life when she is not capable of being responsible for her own?!?!

Well she can't--on her own. However, her parents could decide to take this on. Again, it's their call to make.

Janies Friend · Newbie

Although her parents are her legal guardians, their decision making power isn't absolute. It would be toughto find a doctor and hospital who would sterilize the daughter against her wishes or even without telling her what the surgery was for. There was a very sordid history in the last century of sterilizing mentally handicapped individuals against their will and it's now considered a form of abuse in many cases.

burns07 · Guru

well, appears she's already sexually active ( unless she was raped/sexually assaulted ) and given her age, her disability and the possibility/probability this could happen again, would consider a tubal as the best course--her parents have to consider not only her current situation but her future as well

the fact that the police are investigating is troubling and may be weighing heavily on the parent's minds

Momala · Great cook-happy wife-superb fisherman

Where is the sperm donor in all this drama? What about his rights regarding the child?

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Momala wrote:
Where is the sperm donor in all this drama? What about his rights regarding the child?

It sounds as if it is an assault case. The police are involved, and I do believe that mentally disabled people are considered unable to consent anyways.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Either way, sperm donor is not likely to have any rights.

flan327 · Itty bitty's Grammy

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Momala wrote:
Where is the sperm donor in all this drama? What about his rights regarding the child?

It sounds as if it is an assault case. The police are involved, and I do believe that mentally disabled people are considered unable to consent anyways.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Either way, sperm donor is not likely to have any rights.

1. Yes, that's right.

2. I think it depends on the severity of the disability.

flan

Dona Worry Be Happy · Vette's SS!!

Janies Friend wrote:
Although her parents are her legal guardians, their decision making power isn't absolute. It would be toughto find a doctor and hospital who would sterilize the daughter against her wishes or even without telling her what the surgery was for. There was a very sordid history in the last century of sterilizing mentally handicapped individuals against their will and it's now considered a form of abuse in many cases.

Putting her on birth control is one thing, permanently sterilizing her is quite another.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Janies Friend wrote:
Although her parents are her legal guardians, their decision making power isn't absolute. It would be toughto find a doctor and hospital who would sterilize the daughter against her wishes or even without telling her what the surgery was for. There was a very sordid history in the last century of sterilizing mentally handicapped individuals against their will and it's now considered a form of abuse in many cases.
Putting her on birth control is one thing, permanently sterilizing her is quite another.

And when her parents are no longer there to make sure she takes her birth control? It's not like being mentally handicapped is temporary.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Janies Friend wrote:
Although her parents are her legal guardians, their decision making power isn't absolute. It would be toughto find a doctor and hospital who would sterilize the daughter against her wishes or even without telling her what the surgery was for. There was a very sordid history in the last century of sterilizing mentally handicapped individuals against their will and it's now considered a form of abuse in many cases.
Putting her on birth control is one thing, permanently sterilizing her is quite another.

It is a far better alternative than multiple pregnancies and abortions. Yes, the could put her on Norplant or something like that. But, if she isn't going capable of being a mother, that isn't going to change over time. So, a tubal seems very reasonable.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

flan327 wrote:
Dona Worry Be Happy wrote:
Momala wrote:
Where is the sperm donor in all this drama? What about his rights regarding the child?

It sounds as if it is an assault case. The police are involved, and I do believe that mentally disabled people are considered unable to consent anyways.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Either way, sperm donor is not likely to have any rights.
1. Yes, that's right.
2. I think it depends on the severity of the disability.
flan

Of course it depends. One can be disabled and have all their faculties and care for a child despite handicaps. But, for the umpteenth time, it would seem this girl really doesn't know how she got pregnant and by whom and that her parents recognize she is not equipped to be a mother.

Lawyerlady · On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

And how is consistently and permanently putting her on birth control different than permanent sterilization? It's pumping her full of elective drugs. I don't consider that any better.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Lawyerlady wrote:
And how is consistently and permanently putting her on birth control different than permanent sterilization? It's pumping her full of elective drugs. I don't consider that any better.

Yes. And, if she does get pregnant again, how would subjecting her to an abortion be better than a tubal?

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

In a lot of states, rapists have complete parental rights. The right to demand visitation etc even if it's in jail.

Lady Gaga Snerd · Guru

Mellow Momma wrote:
In a lot of states, rapists have complete parental rights. The right to demand visitation etc even if it's in jail.

Yes, so far better to have a tubal and prevent that situation from happening.

I know what to do_sometimes · Frozen Sucks!

Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:
Mellow Momma wrote:
In a lot of states, rapists have complete parental rights. The right to demand visitation etc even if it's in jail.
Yes, so far better to have a tubal and prevent that situation from happening.

It would be extremely difficult to find a judge to allow such surgery. And finding a doctor to perform the surgery is a non starter.

Mellow Momma · Sniff...sniff, sniff. Yay! A Bum!

www.salon.com/2015/10/04/parental_rights_for_rapists_youd_be_surprised_how_cruel_the_law_can_be/

This article is a great read about a rapist's parental rights and how the rapist will offer hold the victim hostage over those rights. One rapist agreed to terminate his rights and sign adoption papers, but only if the victim refused to testify against him. Another, who was ordered to pay child support, then demanded visitation and got it! If the victim wanted the child support he demanded visitation rights, but offered to sign his rights away if she refused the child support. Victims often have to consult their attackers on which school the child should attend, and other parental decisions.

No thanks.

-- Edited by Mellow Momma on Saturday 9th of January 2016 10:01:47 AM