Dear Amy: I have a huge dilemma. “Jane” and I have been good friends since middle school. I love her like a sister.
Recently, Jane accepted a job at a church as the youth director in the town where we attend college. She is good with youth and is very outgoing.
However, Jane was not fully truthful when applying for this job.
The church asked all applicants to affirm its faith statement and a code of behavior that prohibits premarital sex. Jane signed the code of behavior, indicating that she would not have premarital sex.
To further confuse the issue, she told them that she did not have a boyfriend. In truth, Jane does have sex. However, she is a (quiet) lesbian.
In a technical sense, she says that she did not lie because she does not have intercourse. Since the church did not ask her if she was gay, she said that she did not deceive them.
I feel like this is a problem and that a church employee who is teaching the youth how to be good Christians should be fully honest — even if it means that she would not get the job.
Does the church have a right to know the truth? Do I have an obligation to say something? Does it even matter if it does not affect how she does her job? Since Jane won’t listen to me regarding this, I thought about sending the pastor an anonymous letter. What do you think? — Bewildered
DETROIT FREE PRESS
Son and girlfriend filched material; what’s a mother to do?
Dear Bewildered: “Jane” seems to have shared details with you concerning how she filled out her job application. If you disagree with her choice, you are obligated to try to persuade her to make a different choice. You are not ethically or morally compelled to do anything else.
You say that according to the application, Jane agreed not to have premarital sex. She doesn’t seem to have been asked whether she has ever had premarital sex; she has agreed not to have premarital sex while she is employed by the church. So — perhaps you should assume Jane will adhere to this chastity pledge.
Jane was also asked if she has a boyfriend and she has answered truthfully. Nothing you detail about Jane’s behavior indicates that she is not a good Christian or a good youth leader. Not all Christian churches discriminate against homosexuals (the church I belong to does not discriminate). This episode offers a golden opportunity for you to examine your own morals — not Jane’
Being a lesbian does not preclude her from the job. Having a sexual homosexual relationship would be a violation. So, as long as she doesn't do that - she should be fine. But if she does, and she loses her job, she better not complain.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Although, I do understand the issue of having a friend willing to be this dishonest to her church. She is having sex, according to the letter, and trying to skirt that issue by saying it's not with a man is just wrong. She knows better - she has applied to get a job as a youth leader. I don't know that I could continue to be her friend knowing she is willing to lie to her CHURCH and be a teacher of children in that church.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
I'm not saying she shouldn't be in church. But there's a difference between being in church and being a church leader. She is lying to get a job teaching kids in church. That's not the kind of person I would want as my friend.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
It sounds like she is probably the best person for this job. Leave her alone.
Not your circus, not your monkey.
Excuse me? It certainly is her circus if it's her friend. And "everyone lies" is ok to you? How about "everyone steals" or "everyone cheats"? Those ok, too?
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
I would definitely tell. We have a rules at out church on who can who cannot be leaders. A practicing homosexual cannot be a leader in my church.
Oh, and I wouldn't be her friend anymore. She's a liar.
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America guarantees equal opportunity, not equal outcome...
"In a technical sense, she says that she did not lie because she does not have intercourse. Since the church did not ask her if she was gay, she said that she did not deceive them."
"In a technical sense, she says that she did not lie because she does not have intercourse. Since the church did not ask her if she was gay, she said that she did not deceive them."
flan
I highly doubt the question was "do you have intercourse with men?" The question was about premarital sex. Are you saying intimate homosexual relations are not sex?
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
It sounds like she is probably the best person for this job. Leave her alone.
Not your circus, not your monkey.
She's not the best person for the job if she had to lie to get it...
Exactly. And it would be one thing if she intended to stop while holding this job, but if she's telling herself she's not breaking the agreement by having homosexual sex, she's is certainly NOT the right person to be teaching kids in church.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
"In a technical sense, she says that she did not lie because she does not have intercourse. Since the church did not ask her if she was gay, she said that she did not deceive them."
flan
I highly doubt the question was "do you have intercourse with men?" The question was about premarital sex. Are you saying intimate homosexual relations are not sex?
Sounds like premarital sex to me. Or, maybe homosexuals really aren't having sex. Seems like they are when they want to be married and recognized as a married couple consummating a marriage. But, when it isn't convenient for them, then it isn't.
In our church, anyone in any position dealing with children of any age, must be married.
And it absolutely is her business and anyone else's in the church. Especially those with children under her.
Forget the homosexual part, she wasn't fully honest. I don't want those with selective concious teaching my children anything.
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A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
she(the youth director) may be setting the op up so, when fired, she can slap the church for a wrongful termination, sexual discrimination, etc lawsuit--may be her plan all along
-- Edited by burns07 on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 05:07:49 PM
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" the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. "--edmund burke
It sounds like she is probably the best person for this job. Leave her alone.
Not your circus, not your monkey.
Excuse me? It certainly is her circus if it's her friend. And "everyone lies" is ok to you? How about "everyone steals" or "everyone cheats"? Those ok, too?
But everyone in church does sin. What does it matter that this woman sins differently than other people? Does it matter that you just happen to know HOW she sins, and you may not know how Joe Smith in church sins?
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Out of all the lies I have told, "just kidding" is my favorite !
It sounds like she is probably the best person for this job. Leave her alone.
Not your circus, not your monkey.
Excuse me? It certainly is her circus if it's her friend. And "everyone lies" is ok to you? How about "everyone steals" or "everyone cheats"? Those ok, too?
But everyone in church does sin. What does it matter that this woman sins differently than other people? Does it matter that you just happen to know HOW she sins, and you may not know how Joe Smith in church sins?
Everyone does sin. Not everyone is cut out to be a youth leader. They specifically state which sins they will not accept for those positions. It's highly doubtful she is not currently practicing them, but even if not, she is being deliberately deceptive.
Let's say it was a guy who had a problem with child p*rn. He is no longer viewing it, and is working on his issues--but do you think he would be a good leader for the children of the church? Would you brush that off and say "well, everyone sins"?
BS. Sure, everyone sins--but that is in NO WAY an excuse for someone to accept a position with these conditions when they have little intention, if any, of fulfilling said conditions.
-- Edited by huskerbb on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 11:10:02 PM
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I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.
Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.
I don't believe in the so-called "lie of omission" but I do believe in deception and deceptive tactics. This woman is definitely guilty of deception and a deceptive person is not a good Children's Church instructor.
I wouldn't stop being someone's friend because they were gay or a lesbian, but I would stop being their friend if they were doing something like described in this letter. Then I'd inform the church.
She is prepared to throw her oldest and dearest friend under the bus and cost her a job she obviously wants.
With friends like these, who needs enemies? ??
She is prepared to throw her oldest and dearest friend under the bus and cost her a job she obviously wants. With friends like these, who needs enemies? ??
This is what you got from the OP? What about the woman who lies about having premarital sex because homosexual sex isn't really sex? Or who applies for a job and signs an agreement she has no intention of keeping?
That is not a person worth being friends with.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
That's a good point. Yes, Christians do sin. But, it isn't supposed to be your unrepentant practice.
How do we know she is unrepentant ? Maybe she repents. Maybe she feels terrible about it and repents and is trying her best but is weak.
We know she isn't repentant b/c she justifies lying about sex as "not really being sex because it's not intercourse with a man". And if she is having to work so hard on that issue that she has to lie about it to get a job, she shouldn't be trying to get a job as a church youth leader. Religious leaders are held to a HIGHER STANDARD per the Bible.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
I don't believe in the so-called "lie of omission" but I do believe in deception and deceptive tactics. This woman is definitely guilty of deception and a deceptive person is not a good Children's Church instructor.
I wouldn't stop being someone's friend because they were gay or a lesbian, but I would stop being their friend if they were doing something like described in this letter. Then I'd inform the church.
I might not stop being their friend either way--but--if I'm a member of that church I'm spilling the beans.
If I know for a fact she is sexually active, I probably would, anyway.
as to whether she is "lying"--that depends on if she is sexually active or not. if she is currently, or she has no intention of abiding by that clause then she is.
-- Edited by huskerbb on Thursday 7th of April 2016 10:06:04 AM
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I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.
Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.
She is prepared to throw her oldest and dearest friend under the bus and cost her a job she obviously wants. With friends like these, who needs enemies? ??
I don't know that I need too many friends who would lie to a church.
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I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.
Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.
The LW makes no mention of a girlfriend. I wonder how she knows she is sexually active?
Either way, she needs to butt out.
And it is not the LW's church, she is not a member. They go to college there. LW makes no mention that she personally attends st all.
The LW makes no mention of a girlfriend. I wonder how she knows she is sexually active? Either way, she needs to butt out. And it is not the LW's church, she is not a member. They go to college there. LW makes no mention that she personally attends st all.
She's her friend and does say she is having sex. Or are you ignoring that part?
I would not want to be friends with a lying hypocrite.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
She doesn't say if she wants to stop being her friend. She wants to send an letter to the paster outing her friend!
No. LW needs to butt out. She seems entirely to interested in this whole process. It is not her church, not her sex life, not her business.
The LW makes no mention of a girlfriend. I wonder how she knows she is sexually active? Either way, she needs to butt out. And it is not the LW's church, she is not a member. They go to college there. LW makes no mention that she personally attends st all.
She's her friend and does say she is having sex. Or are you ignoring that part?
I would not want to be friends with a lying hypocrite.
I can sympathize with the reason she feels forced to lie. I've heard it all before, a lot of it here.
The LW makes no mention of a girlfriend. I wonder how she knows she is sexually active? Either way, she needs to butt out. And it is not the LW's church, she is not a member. They go to college there. LW makes no mention that she personally attends st all.
She's her friend and does say she is having sex. Or are you ignoring that part?
I would not want to be friends with a lying hypocrite.
I can sympathize with the reason she feels forced to lie. I've heard it all before, a lot of it here.
flan
She should not be applying for this job knowing the restrictions and qualifications and knowing she has no intention of meeting them. and no one is FORCED to lie. She is choosing to.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
The LW makes no mention of a girlfriend. I wonder how she knows she is sexually active? Either way, she needs to butt out. And it is not the LW's church, she is not a member. They go to college there. LW makes no mention that she personally attends st all.
She's her friend and does say she is having sex. Or are you ignoring that part?
I would not want to be friends with a lying hypocrite.
I can sympathize with the reason she feels forced to lie. I've heard it all before, a lot of it here.
flan
That's BS. Apply for a different job if you cannot meet the conditions of employment for a particular one.
Yet another example of how much you are against freedom of religion. A CHURCH does not want its youth leader to engage in premarital sex and somehow in your view they should not have that right--or at least it's perfectly ok for people to lie to get around that if they want the job.
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I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.
Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.
The LW makes no mention of a girlfriend. I wonder how she knows she is sexually active? Either way, she needs to butt out. And it is not the LW's church, she is not a member. They go to college there. LW makes no mention that she personally attends st all.
She's her friend and does say she is having sex. Or are you ignoring that part?
I would not want to be friends with a lying hypocrite.
I can sympathize with the reason she feels forced to lie. I've heard it all before, a lot of it here.
flan
That's BS. Apply for a different job if you cannot meet the conditions of employment for a particular one.
Yet another example of how much you are against freedom of religion. A CHURCH does not want its youth leader to engage in premarital sex and somehow in your view they should not have that right--or at least it's perfectly ok for people to lie to get around that if they want the job.
I was concentrating on the fact that she is a lesbian.
The LW makes no mention of a girlfriend. I wonder how she knows she is sexually active? Either way, she needs to butt out. And it is not the LW's church, she is not a member. They go to college there. LW makes no mention that she personally attends st all.
She's her friend and does say she is having sex. Or are you ignoring that part?
I would not want to be friends with a lying hypocrite.
I can sympathize with the reason she feels forced to lie. I've heard it all before, a lot of it here.
flan
That's BS. Apply for a different job if you cannot meet the conditions of employment for a particular one.
Yet another example of how much you are against freedom of religion. A CHURCH does not want its youth leader to engage in premarital sex and somehow in your view they should not have that right--or at least it's perfectly ok for people to lie to get around that if they want the job.
I was concentrating on the fact that she is a lesbian.
husker, you have a valid point.
She's good with kids? Find another job.
flan
what difference does it make? Let's say that was a direct question on the application. Should she lie, then? If You say yes, then you are saying that freedom of religion doesn't matter--even in church.
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I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right.
Well, I could agree with you--but then we'd both be wrong.
Because she is an idiot and sees nothing wrong with what she is doing.
More like bragging.
She's the wolf in sheep's clothing.
Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
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A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
I wouldn't want someone who lied to work for me. If they would lie about that chances are they will lie again. That is my experiences with people who lie, they just get worse.
I wouldn't want someone who lied to work for me. If they would lie about that chances are they will lie again. That is my experiences with people who lie, they just get worse.
Exactly.
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I drink coffee so I don't kill you.
I quilt so I don't kill you.
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Faith isn't something that keeps bad things from happening. Faith is what helps us get through bad things when they do happen.
