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Post Info TOPIC: Switzerland says tradition of shaking hands more important than religious freedom


On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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After two Syrian boys in Switzerland asked to be excused from shaking a female teacher's hand because they said it violated their faith, their canton announced Wednesday that families of children who refuse to participate in the tradition that starts and ends the school day will be fined.

The fine will be up to $5,000, the Swiss canton said in a statement Wednesday.  

"The public interest with respect to equality between men and women and the integration of foreigners significantly outweigh the freedom of conscience (freedom of religion) of the students," reads a translation of the statement, according to The Washington Post. "This differs from the wearing of a headscarf or absence of swimming lessons…. [T]he social gesture of the handshake is important for the employability of students later in their professional lives."

Initially, school officials struck a compromise with the teens, saying they should not shake any teachers' hands to avoid discrimination. The canton's reversal, however, reignites an ongoing debate over how much European countries ought to accommodate immigrants' traditions and beliefs that conflict with their own, as the continent becomes home to unprecedented numbers of mostly Muslim asylum seekers.  

 

The controversy started with a request from two teenage brothers in the town of Therwil, near the French border, that they be excused from shaking their teacher's hand. In much of Switzerland, the school day starts and ends with a handshake between student and teacher. But the 14- and 15-year-old brothers said shaking their female teacher's hand was against their faith, because they were prohibited from physical contact with the opposite sex, except for immediate family members.

The school district first tried to arrive at a solution by balancing freedom of religion with gender equality: The brothers would not shake any female or male teacher's hand.  

But local reports of the case garnered national attention, according to The Washington Post, and "the agreement with the school district began to come undone." 

The Federation of Islamic Organizations in Switzerland refused to support the brothers' view, saying it is outside the mainstream. 

"Can the denial of shaking hands be more important than the Islamic commandment of mutual respect?" Montassar Ben Mrad, president of the organization, said in a statement. "The good relationship between teachers and students is a prerequisite for a good education and an effective integration," the group notes. 

Switzerland, though, has a history of clashing with the cultural traditions of its Islamic citizens – about 5 percent of its population. In 2009, for instance, voters approved a referendum that banned the construction of minarets. 

The debate extends beyond national borders into a growing movement, as The Christian Science Monitor's Robert Marquand wrote when France adopted an anti-burqa law

“The law is part of a new right-leaning symbolic political language in France and elsewhere in Europe that appeals to mainstream voters – telling them a traditional sense of European identity and culture applies to all members of society, including larger numbers of Muslims.”

The debate isn't exclusive to Muslims, or immigrants, although the influx of refugees from the Middle East has largely shaped public debate. Shneur Odze, for example, a conservative British candidate for the European Parliament who is an Orthodox Jew, refused to shake women's hands because he said it violated his religious beliefs.

An opinion article Talia Lavin wrote in 2014 for the Jewish Telegraphic Agency about Mr. Odze's actions offers a moment of levity or comedic relief, depending on how you look at it.

"A handshake is one of the most prominent gestures in Western civilization," she writes, but "Maybe it’s time to avoid these difficulties by doing away with the handshake altogether. After all, all of us have experienced sweaty-palmed, limp or finger-crushing handshakes."

How about switching to bows, she suggests?

"But then again, maybe it would just spark another argument: Does bowing to your realtor or MP constitute idol worship?"



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The fines will work until someone gets beheaded.

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Make no mistake this is a war and a takeover of culture. They are seeking to destroy the culture of Europe and they will.

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I'm confused, LGS. Switzerland is not upholding the rights of immigrants on this issue.

Who is getting beheaded?

flan

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Yes, nobody is getting beheaded by Islam flan. More of the 'that never happens, what me worry? Alfred E Neuman". Attack the source or pretend to be oblivious.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

Yes, nobody is getting beheaded by Islam flan. More of the 'that never happens, what me worry? Alfred E Neuman". Attack the source or pretend to be oblivious.


 I was keeping to the topic of the OP.

flan



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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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I don't think anyone should have to touch another person - that's ridiculous. Heck, even without religious objection, no one should have to shake someone's hand.

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I guess that, since shaking hands has been a tradition for thousands of years, I really don't consider that the same as a hug, etc.

Interesting, in any case.

flan

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I've read that the origin of the handshake began in Roman times. Two warriors, who had come to sign a truce, would approach each other, and grasp the other's forearm with their right (dominant) hand, indicating that they held no weapons.

The immigrants chose to move to Switzerland. If they didn't like the customs, they didn't have to select Switzerland - there are lots of other countries.





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Momala wrote:

I've read that the origin of the handshake began in Roman times. Two warriors, who had come to sign a truce, would approach each other, and grasp the other's forearm with their right (dominant) hand, indicating that they held no weapons.

The immigrants chose to move to Switzerland. If they didn't like the customs, they didn't have to select Switzerland - there are lots of other countries.




 Yes, that's what I read too.

It's such a small gesture, imho.

flan



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I understand the gesture but I also don't think anyone should be forced to touch anyone for any reason.

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They are coming into our culture from the sh!thole places they were in--and they want to turn our countries into the sh!tholes they left.

It's absurd that liberals will scream to high heavens about religious freedom when the issue is blatant disrespect for women--but religious freedom goes out the window when gays are involved.



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Momala wrote:

I've read that the origin of the handshake began in Roman times. Two warriors, who had come to sign a truce, would approach each other, and grasp the other's forearm with their right (dominant) hand, indicating that they held no weapons.

The immigrants chose to move to Switzerland. If they didn't like the customs, they didn't have to select Switzerland - there are lots of other countries.




 They should have to adapt to our culture.

 

we are busy losing the war Charles the Hammer once won.



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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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Religious freedom is important. Forcing Muslims to shake hands is no different than forcing a Christian to take part in a gay wedding.



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Adapt or leave. They have no problem sucking off the tit.

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Lawyerlady wrote:

Religious freedom is important. Forcing Muslims to shake hands is no different than forcing a Christian to take part in a gay wedding.


 Yet most liberals are aghast at the former but encourage the latter.

 

however, I think they have to adapt to our culture.  This is absolutely a women's rights issue, also.  They refuse to see women as equals.  

They want sharia law.



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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

Make no mistake this is a war and a takeover of culture. They are seeking to destroy the culture of Europe and they will.


 Word.



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When you move to a country you should be ready to adapt their culture and customs. I'd be annoyed by the hand shaking since i think it germy, but if I moved their I'd learn to get over it.

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How did such a custom originate? I have had some teachers in my life that I would not like to shake hands with; rather give them a kick in the shins.

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karl271 wrote:

How did such a custom originate? I have had some teachers in my life that I would not like to shake hands with; rather give them a kick in the shins.


 It's not about shaking hands with a teacher, per se.  

Its the fact that they refused to do so because they don't view women as equals.



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huskerbb wrote:
Lawyerlady wrote:

Religious freedom is important. Forcing Muslims to shake hands is no different than forcing a Christian to take part in a gay wedding.


 Yet most liberals are aghast at the former but encourage the latter.

 

however, I think they have to adapt to our culture.  This is absolutely a women's rights issue, also.  They refuse to see women as equals.  

They want sharia law.


 I'm not.

It's just a handshake.

flan



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Bonny22Pye wrote:

When you move to a country you should be ready to adapt their culture and customs. I'd be annoyed by the hand shaking since i think it germy, but if I moved their I'd learn to get over it.


 Yep.  



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Sooo, they don't like the culture, so the culture has to change? Why?

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Religious freedom is important, but so is the smooth operation of polite society. When the two clash way should be given to "societal norms", as long as those norms aren't solely based on a specific religion, when it comes to interactions between two or more people that share different values. That way no on should be upset that their religious beliefs are being trumped by the religious beliefs of the other person.

I don't believe handshaking to be of Christian origin (I saw where someone mentioned possible Roman Soldier beginnings, maybe, maybe not, I honestly don't know, I'm just fairly certain we didn't start it), therefore if requiring handshaking is the "societal norm" for the activity in progress, then all should participate.

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Well, our "norm" used to be having people stand to say the Pledge of Allegiance or stand for the National Anthem. Our 'norm" is that men pee in restrooms with other men and vice versa. But, suddenly all of our 'norms" must be tossed aside.

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

Well, our "norm" used to be having people stand to say the Pledge of Allegiance or stand for the National Anthem. Our 'norm" is that men pee in restrooms with other men and vice versa. But, suddenly all of our 'norms" must be tossed aside.


 No, not ALL of them.

It used to be the "norm" to have segregated drinking fountains as well.

flan



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And it use to be the "norm" for people to have common sense and understand reason.

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Funny. It's THEIR country. We supposedly aren't allowed to tell Saudi Arabia or any muslim countries how to run their countries. So, this doesn't apply to Switzerland why?

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Lady Gaga Snerd wrote:

Funny. It's THEIR country. We supposedly aren't allowed to tell Saudi Arabia or any muslim countries how to run their countries. So, this doesn't apply to Switzerland why?


 I'm not sure what your point is.

flan



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lilyofcourse wrote:

And it use to be the "norm" for people to have common sense and understand reason.


 No, not really. Every society has people who can't think for themselves, or who use others to get ahead.

flan



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On the bright side...... Christmas is coming! (Mod)

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Switzerland actually has some pretty exacting rules to live there. I have a friend who lives there - it's pretty strict.

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well, the swiss do guard the pope/vatican


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