July 16, 2016 By Evan Defilippis and Devin Hughes, Los Angeles Times
A gun show. (Credit: News12 )
The National Rifle Association and its allies have their post-shooting routine down cold. They wait a day or two and then respond with a blistering array of attacks against gun-safety advocates calling for reform. No matter what the circumstances - a husband and wife at a Christmas party, a deranged teenager at a movie theater, or a sniper targeting police officers at a peaceful demonstration - they make the same points, which, unsurprisingly, often appear detached from the realities on the ground. After the attack at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Fla., they marshaled five common pro- gun arguments, all of which crumble under scrutiny:
A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN WOULD HAVE STOPPED IT
In discussing Orlando, Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee, mused, "If you had guns on the other side, you wouldn’t have had the tragedy that you had." It was a clear homage to the NRA’s mantra that the "only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."
In this instance, however, we don’t have to ponder how different the outcome would have been had a "good guy with a gun" been present, since there was one: a police officer working extra duty. Despite being armed and exchanging gunfire with the shooter, the officer was unable to prevent him from gaining entrance to the club.
Most armed citizens fare worse than their police counterparts. In an independent study commissioned by the National Gun Victims Action Council, researchers put 77 participants with varying levels of firearms training through three realistic self-defense scenarios. In the first, seven of the participants shot an innocent bystander. Almost all of the participants in the first and second scenarios who engaged the "bad guy" were killed. And in the final scenario, 23 percent of the participants fired at a suspect who didn’t actually pose a threat.
Overwhelming empirical evidence corroborates the simulation. Of the 160 active shooting incidents identified by the FBI from 2000 to 2013, only one was stopped by an armed civilian. In comparison, two were stopped by off-duty police, four by armed guards and 21 by unarmed civilians.
SHOOTERS TARGET GUN-FREE ZONES
Even before most of the details about the Orlando shooting were released, John Lott, a pro- gun commentator, already was proclaiming the dangers of so called " gun-free zones." Lott argued that "the police only arrived on the scene after the attack occurred." He also claimed, "Since at least 1950, only slightly over 1 percent of mass public shootings have occurred where general citizens have been able to defend themselves." He concluded: "It is hard to ignore how these mass public shooters consciously pick targets where they know victims won’t be able to defend themselves."
All of this is demonstrably false. There was an armed police officer at Pulse, and he was very quickly joined by two fellow officers. Lott consistently mislabels many of the targets he studies as gun-free zones, ranging from Umpqua Community College in Oregon to Hialeah, Fla., and many others. Further, if we examine the 33 mass public shootings in which four or more people were killed between January 2009 and June 2014, the evidence reveals that 18 occurred in areas where guns were not banned or had armed security present.
The clear pattern that emerges from these incidents is that shooters have a personal connection to their target locations - some sort of grudge against them, no matter how misguided. And when shooters choose a place at random, there is no substantive evidence that they gravitate specifically to gun-free zones. The Aurora, Colo., shooter, for example, left a diary spelling out his motivations and plans for the attack, in which he appeared far more concerned about finding a good parking spot than facing resistance. And in Orlando, the shooter clearly knew he was going to face armed resistance as he was a regular customer of Pulse and even tried to purchase body armor with his firearms.
NO LAWS COULD HAVE PREVENTED THE TRAGEDY
Sounding another familiar theme, conservative writer David French opined after Orlando: "The gun- control debate is nothing more than a destructive distraction" and asked rhetorically, "Is there a single viable gun- control proposal of the last decade that would keep a committed jihadist from arming himself?"
In the case of Orlando, the answer is a clear "yes." In Canada, the gunman could not have obtained a license to purchase a firearm because of his history of domestic violence, signs of mental instability and vocal support for terrorist organizations. If gun-shop owners had to notify the FBI when somebody on or previously on one of the terror watch lists purchased a weapon, agents could have investigated and perhaps prevented the attack. And if there were restrictions on magazine size, the shooter would have had to reload more frequently, which would have given clubgoers a better opportunity to escape or disarm the assailant, mitigating the carnage.
TERRORISTS AND CRIMINALS AREN’T DETERRED BY LAWS
The NRA’s first public response to the Orlando shooting was an op-ed by Executive Director Chris Cox, in which he stated: "Radical Islamic terrorists are not deterred by gun control laws." This is the newest iteration of the popular talking point that gun laws cannot work because criminals won’t follow them. As Marco Rubio often proclaimed during the primary campaign:
"My skepticism about gun laws is criminals don’t follow the law."
Applying this logic, why have any laws? If criminals are just going to run red lights, why have traffic penalties? The NRA’s reasoning is a prescription for chaos - and it doesn’t withstand contact with empirical reality.
Whatever Rubio believes, there’s clear evidence that laws do influence criminal behavior. One study, for instance, found that over the past two decades, terrorists in the U.S. have largely abandoned bombs. Why? One reason is that in the aftermath of the 1996 Oklahoma City bombing, federal legislation made it more difficult for consumers to obtain bomb-making ingredients and easier for law enforcement to monitor purchases. This new oversight led terrorists to revamp their tactics, replacing bombs with guns. An investigation by the Trace, a nonprofit news organization focused on guns, revealed that 95 percent of terrorism deaths in the U.S. between January 2002 and August 2015 were caused by firearms.
GUNS ARE JUST A TOOL, LIKE KNIVES AND HAMMERS
In response to the Orlando shooting, Philip Van Cleave, leader of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, said: "Blame the bad guy, not the tool he uses. If you don’t do that, you’re just wasting your time looking for a solution where none will ever be found." Similarly, in the wake of the Sandy Hook tragedy, Rep. Louis Gohmert, R-Texas, pontificated: "I refuse to play the game of ’assault weapon.’ That’s any weapon. It’s a hammer. It’s the machetes. In Rwanda that killed 800,000 people, an article that came out this week, the massive number that are killed with hammers."
Here’s the rather obvious problem with such thinking: Firearms are more lethal than knives, machetes and hammers. Gunshot wounds frequently cause catastrophic damage. And the ability to maintain a quick and steady rate of fire allows a gunman to maximize casualties. There is a reason that American mass killers choose assault-style rifles to carry out their attacks, not knives or hammers.
On Dec. 14, 2012, a man wielding a knife assaulted people at a school in Chempeng, China, stabbing 23 children and one adult. Hours later, a man armed with an AR-15 attacked an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., shooting 20 students and eight adults. At Sandy Hook, all 20 children and six of the eight adults died. In China, there wasn’t a single fatality. The gun made all the difference.
Even the most heart-wrenching acts of gun violence are now so ordinary and routine that writing a timely article about the subject has become almost impossible. One mass shooting replaces another, permitting little time for meaningful reflection or catharsis. While details about the tragedy in Dallas are still emerging, some facts are painfully clear: The shooter was reportedly armed with high-powered weaponry, was clearly undeterred by good guys with guns and indeed specifically targeted those good guys. Yet again, our country’s lax gun laws helped a bad guy unleash horrific carnage.
Evan DeFilippis and Devin Hughes are the founders of the gun violence prevention site Armed With Reason. They wrote this for the Los Angeles Times.
They absolutely do. Doesn't mean crime doesn't happen elsewhere where there is security. But, the GOAL of most of these types of killing is to maximize the carnage. They don't plan to get out alive so they want to kill as many people in the fastest way possible with the least resistance. We know that to be true. So, not really sure what your objection is to arming schools.
NO LAWS COULD HAVE PREVENTED THE TRAGEDY
Laws deter the Law Abiding. There are laws against murder. There are laws against shooting and killing people and purposefully mowing people down with a Mack Truck. We have thousands upon thousands of gun laws. None of us are against laws as the Left tries to pretend. They will simply rent trucks and mow people down in big groups. Easy peasy for them. Then what? Will you outlaw trucks?
Guns are Tools. I agree that Guns are lethal and deadly. They should never be taken lightly. I disagree with parents who have a flippant attitude about them and say "don't touch" and assume that somehow is protective. I dont' agree with that. I have said over and over how i think responsible gun owners should behave. However, there is no other weapon whereby a WOMAN can be safe in her own home without. So, let's hear it.
"No matter what the circumstances - a husband and wife at a Christmas party, a deranged teenager at a movie theater, or a sniper targeting police officers at a peaceful demonstration - they make the same points, which, unsurprisingly, often appear detached from the realities on the ground."
It wasn't a husband and wife, it was TERRORISTS.
A deranged teenager is close to true but more like criminal wanting attention.
A sniper targeting police? That speaks for itself.
In EVERY. SINGLE. INCIDENT. More gun control would not have changed a thing.
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A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
Here’s the rather obvious problem with such thinking: Firearms are more lethal than knives, machetes and hammers. Gunshot wounds frequently cause catastrophic damage. And the ability to maintain a quick and steady rate of fire allows a gunman to maximize casualties. There is a reason that American mass killers choose assault-style rifles to carry out their attacks, not knives or hammers.
On Dec. 14, 2012, a man wielding a knife assaulted people at a school in Chempeng, China, stabbing 23 children and one adult. Hours later, a man armed with an AR-15 attacked an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., shooting 20 students and eight adults. At Sandy Hook, all 20 children and six of the eight adults died. In China, there wasn’t a single fatality. The gun made all the difference.
At what point has a good guy with a gun NOT stopped one of these? Even if the shooter shoots themselves, it's because someone has a gun coming for them.
And there are countless reports of the good guy stopping the bad guy with a gun.
And in EVERY incident, the police were called and those are the good guys and they have guns.
SHOOTERS TARGET GUN-FREE ZONES
Again, show me ONE story where it wasn't a gun-free zone or soft target.
99% are. Period.
You don't see them taking place at gun shows or NRA rallies.
NO LAWS COULD HAVE PREVENTED THE TRAGEDY
We have laws RIGHT NOW to prevent these things.
THEY. DON'T. WORK. BECAUSE. A. CRIMINAL. DOESNT. CARE. ABOUT. LAWS.
TERRORISTS AND CRIMINALS AREN’T DETERRED BY LAWS
DING! DING! DING!
So how will making it harder for law abiding citizens to own guns help ANYTHING?
It's looking glass thinking.
The ONLY thing that will stop a mass shooting, is killing the shooter.
I said it before and I will say it again.
This article is propaganda. Anti gun propaganda.
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A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
I would post my link to a document that has 57 pages of links of Cases where civilian gun owners thwarted crime. However this forum automatically puts the post in time out awaiting approval and no one sees it.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined
nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the
assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater
confidence than an armed one."
— Cesare Beccaria - Essay on Crimes and Punishments, 1764
I would post my link to a document that has 57 pages of links of Cases where civilian gun owners thwarted crime. However this forum automatically puts the post in time out awaiting approval and no one sees it.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one."
— Cesare Beccaria - Essay on Crimes and Punishments, 1764
If you PM the link to me, or post it then ask LL to approve the posting, one way or another we will get it up.
Ed
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The Principle of Least Interest: He who cares least about a relationship, controls it.
I ought to print that article out - in case I ever need toilet paper.
All 5 of those points are actually perfectly valid points in opposition to more pointless gun control laws. Whomever Evan Defilippis and Devin Hughes are, they obviously don't have a clue to the reality of guns and gun violence.
I would post my link to a document that has 57 pages of links of Cases where civilian gun owners thwarted crime. However this forum automatically puts the post in time out awaiting approval and no one sees it.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one."
— Cesare Beccaria - Essay on Crimes and Punishments, 1764
If you PM the link to me, or post it then ask LL to approve the posting, one way or another we will get it up.
Gun registration doesn't work. We tried that here in Canada, it only serves to punish law abiding citizens as criminals don't register guns.
I see nothing wrong with limitations on what guns are available and what you have to do in order to get one, through legal channels.
There is a problem with that though. So many people already have guns. They are out there by the thousands. And limiting private sales would be tantamount to registering them. You could stop new production, but that's not really going to do anything. Also, a 3-D printer can print a working firearm AND ammo.
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America guarantees equal opportunity, not equal outcome...
Well, by your logic then all drugs should be legal, after all there are thousands of drugs "out there". People already have drugs. So why not just let em. :)
Well, by your logic then all drugs should be legal, after all there are thousands of drugs "out there". People already have drugs. So why not just let em. :)
Drugs expire, drugs can be used up. Guns do neither. I have one that's 200 years old. Still fires perfectly. I highly doubt a gram of coke is going to be potent 200 , heck 20, years from now...
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America guarantees equal opportunity, not equal outcome...
The last terror attack in France, a truck was used to plow through the crowd, killing 80+.
So are we going to talk about truck control?
What about pressure cooker control?
Knife control, anyone?
The problem is not the tool.
The problem is the user of the tool.
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A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
Nope not a good deflect, try again. Stored properly it can last hundreds of years, just like a gun.
I'll ask a former drug dealer about that...
He says you are wrong...
Drug dealers and gun dealers, both sales people. I think I'll do my thinking independently.
Besides, the point is your logic is flawed.
You are saying that just because others are already doing it, doesn't mean it should be made easier?
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A flock of flirting flamingos is pure, passionate, pink pandemonium-a frenetic flamingle-mangle-a discordant discotheque of delirious dancing, flamboyant feathers, and flamingo lingo.
Well, by your logic then all drugs should be legal, after all there are thousands of drugs "out there". People already have drugs. So why not just let em. :)
- apple
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Drugs should be legal. But not "because they are already out there", because they should be a personal choice.
Well, by your logic then all drugs should be legal, after all there are thousands of drugs "out there". People already have drugs. So why not just let em. :) - apple
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Drugs should be legal. But not "because they are already out there", because they should be a personal choice.
There is so much misinformation about guns. My MIL thinks you can just order one like you do a book on the internet, and have it delivered to your door.
Not legally, mom. Good grief.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
There is so much misinformation about guns. My MIL thinks you can just order one like you do a book on the internet, and have it delivered to your door.
Not legally, mom. Good grief.
Aren't there rifles and shotguns in the Sears Catalog? I remember seeing them...
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The Principle of Least Interest: He who cares least about a relationship, controls it.
There is so much misinformation about guns. My MIL thinks you can just order one like you do a book on the internet, and have it delivered to your door.
Not legally, mom. Good grief.
Absolutely you can. We've bought several this way...
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America guarantees equal opportunity, not equal outcome...
There is so much misinformation about guns. My MIL thinks you can just order one like you do a book on the internet, and have it delivered to your door.
Not legally, mom. Good grief.
Absolutely you can. We've bought several this way...
From an online retailer without a background check?
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
There is so much misinformation about guns. My MIL thinks you can just order one like you do a book on the internet, and have it delivered to your door.
Not legally, mom. Good grief.
Absolutely you can. We've bought several this way...
From an online retailer without a background check?
No, but through buy sell trade sites. It's just as easy to order from one of them than from Amazon...
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America guarantees equal opportunity, not equal outcome...
There is so much misinformation about guns. My MIL thinks you can just order one like you do a book on the internet, and have it delivered to your door.
Not legally, mom. Good grief.
Absolutely you can. We've bought several this way...
From an online retailer without a background check?
No, but through buy sell trade sites. It's just as easy to order from one of them than from Amazon...
Those are private sales. Mom thinks you can order a handgun from Walmart and have it shipped to your door as easy as a waffle iron.
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LawyerLady
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.