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Post Info TOPIC: Supreme Court Rules In Favor Of Free Exercise: Excluding Churches From Public Benefits 'Odious To Our Constitution'


Hooker

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Supreme Court Rules In Favor Of Free Exercise: Excluding Churches From Public Benefits 'Odious To Our Constitution'
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On Monday morning, the Supreme Court released a ruling by a 7-2 margin finding that states cannot prohibit public funding to churches simply because they are churches. The case itself surrounds a playground at the Trinity Lutheran Church Child Learning Center; the Center sought public funding for a rubber surface. The Department of Natural Resources denied the petition, citing a blanket rule that it would not fund churches. The Court rightly found that “denying a generally available benefit solely on account of religious identity imposes a penalty on the free exercise of religion.”

 

The opinion was delivered by Chief Justice Roberts, with concurrences by Justices Thomas and Gorsuch. Only the far-left justices, Sotomayor and Ginsburg, dissented. Chief Justice Roberts’ main point: “the exclusion of Trinity Lutheran from a public benefit for which it is otherwise qualified, solely because it is a church, is odious to our Constitution all the same, and cannot stand.”

There is a significant limitation on the case’s scope: footnote 3, which oddly suggests, “This case involves express discrimination based on religious identity with respect to playground resurfacing. We do not address religious uses of funding or other forms of discrimination.” This footnote was not joined by four of the justices, including Chief Justice Roberts. It’s clearly meant to limit the scope of the case as closely as possible – to allow the court to sneak out of the opinion if it doesn’t like the activities in which churches participate under “free exercise.” If, for example, the church had decided to use the money for general education, the Court might still attempt to kill the funding on the basis that the church wasn’t building a playground.

Justice Gorsuch’s concurrence hits on precisely this point. Gorsuch writes, “the Court leaves open the possibility a useful distinction might be drawn between laws that discriminate on the basis of religious status and religious use…Respectfully, I harbor doubts about the stability of such a line….Is it a religious group that built the playground? Or did a group build the playground so it might be used to advance a religious mission?” Gorsuch’s main concern here is that the Court is setting precedent for rejecting particular free exercise when it doesn’t like the exercise.

Gorsuch states that the Constitution “guarantees the free exercise of religion, not just the right to inward belief...Generally, the government may not force people to choose between participation in a public program and their right to free exercise of religion. I don’t see what it should matter whether we describe that benefit, say, as closed to Lutherans (status) or closed to people who do Lutheran things (use). It is free exercise either way.”

This matters because Gorsuch is looking forward in time to another case the Court is about to decide: whether businesses can operate in religious manner congruent with free exercise if in doing so, they don’t serve gay couples cakes, for example. Gorsuch’s point is that the Court can now argue that a state is not discriminating against a religious person, but only against doing religious things. Take, for example, marriage ceremonies. Let’s say a church only performs heterosexual wedding ceremonies – and the state says that no institution may receive non-profit status if it does not perform same-sex weddings. Is that discrimination under the free exercise clause? Of course it is. But the Court is now leaving the door open to stating that marriage is a secular exercise over which the government can now assert control, and that it is not violating the religious character of churches in doing so. As Gorsuch says, that should make no difference. Discrimination against religion is discrimination against religion.

Or take the example of school vouchers. This decision, without footnote 3, could easily be used to allow school vouchers. But now the Court shies away from that.

 

Justice Sotomayor knows this too, and so she argues in dissent that the government has every right to steamroll religious institutions. “The Church’s playground surface – like a Sunday School room’s walls or the sanctuary’s pews – are integrated with and integral to its religious mission,” Sotomayor writes. “The conclusion that the funding the Church seeks would impermissibly advance religion is inescapable.”

The case itself is so narrowly tailored that it holds nearly no importance for the future of the Court – or the free exercise clause. Of course, that’s always been true: the Court has never respected precedent when it feels impelled to buck it.

 

http://www.dailywire.com/news/17943/supreme-court-rules-favor-free-exercise-excluding-ben-shapiro



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Good.

But now, if the church uses government funds, does this mean it must do things against the beliefs of the church?

It is funded by taxes.

 



-- Edited by lilyofcourse on Monday 26th of June 2017 02:02:35 PM

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So does that mean a non church group can use the church's facilities without being told no?

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Whenitrains wrote:

So does that mean a non church group can use the church's facilities without being told no?


Nope.  Just like Boy Scouts or any other organization can be told no as to use to Public places.   



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Whenitrains wrote:

So does that mean a non church group can use the church's facilities without being told no?


 How many pre-schools, not religious, allow the public to use their facilities?  



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That's just it.

Once the government gives you money, you are subject to government rules.

So if a LBGT group wants to use the playground for a rally, how can they be denied?

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No.

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lilyofcourse wrote:

That's just it.

Once the government gives you money, you are subject to government rules.

So if a LBGT group wants to use the playground for a rally, how can they be denied?


 Wrong. Preschools have discretion about who they allow on their property.  Even public funded ones. Its not, nor has it ever been a free for all...



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Yes.

But before it was a church preschool.

Now it is a church preschool using tax dollars.

A church is not taxed to keep the government out.

But now, there is a door open.

I just don't think it a good idea.

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I agree it's a bad idea if they want to keep it to Church Members only. If it's open to all, then public funds are reasonable. It's all dependent on who can use the facilities.

Government money and religion should never mix. No matter what religion or what government. That's just my opinion though.

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Churches and Government work closely here all the time. Our town ice cream party is at a church. Most graduations are at churches.


If it's open to all, then public funds are reasonable. It's all dependent on who can use the facilities.

Ridiculous.  Pre-schools are not open to the public.  Neither are public schools.  You can't just waltz onto a playground because it gets tax support...



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I think the only restriction the Government can place on the funding is that it is not used for religious purpose. Had this "rubber surface" been deemed Holy Grounds only to be walked on by those who have given themselves to God, the government would not be permitted to providing funding.

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Ridiculous. Pre-schools are not open to the public. Neither are public schools. You can't just waltz onto a playground because it gets tax support...
- Ohfour

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Pre-schools are indeed "open to the public" in the sense that anyone in "the public" can send their kid there. Same with public schools.

That's the "open" I was referring to. That people that the facility was designed for be able to use it, equally, during operating hours, regardless of their affiliation to the place. In the case of the playground, is it just for kids that are members of the Church? OR can some local Mormon and Atheist and Muslim kids play there too if they want to?

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No, not just anyone can send their kids to a certain pre-school. There are conditions...age restrictions, behavioral issues, not to mention that you have to PAY to use the pre-school. I'm 100% positive that if a Mormon or Atheist wanted to send their child to a church pre-school is they want to pay for it, just like everyone else...

Also, Public Schools are not open to the public. I can't take my kids to a school playground during school hours because they are not enrolled at that school. So, no, public schools are not open to the public...

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I just hope it doesn't cause problems down the road.



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Hooker

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Like I said, the government and churches mix and mingle here all the time...
They pay churches to hold graduation ceremonies. Some schools don't have auditoriums, so plays and talent shows and the like are held at the larger churches that have the space needed. About 90% of our polling places are at churches, and they get paid for that.
I'm not sure what the difference is...

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Yes. There they do.

Like I said, I just hope it doesn't cause problems down the road.

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Ohfour wrote:

No, not just anyone can send their kids to a certain pre-school. There are conditions...age restrictions, behavioral issues, not to mention that you have to PAY to use the pre-school. I'm 100% positive that if a Mormon or Atheist wanted to send their child to a church pre-school is they want to pay for it, just like everyone else...

Also, Public Schools are not open to the public. I can't take my kids to a school playground during school hours because they are not enrolled at that school. So, no, public schools are not open to the public...


 And you can't enroll your kid in any school you want, either.  



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And you can't enroll your kid in any school you want, either.
- Lawyerlady

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If that are of the age range and live in the area, you most assuredly can. Just as any appropriate aged child of the local area can be enrolled.

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WYSIWYG wrote:

And you can't enroll your kid in any school you want, either.
- Lawyerlady

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If that are of the age range and live in the area, you most assuredly can. Just as any appropriate aged child of the local area can be enrolled.


 Absolutely not.  We are facing that problem now with high school.  There are 3 high schools in the district, and we cannot enroll in the one we want.

You are being disingenuous again.  You are so determined to make your point and stubborn in it, you ignore fact and reality.



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I didn't say "in the district" I said "in the area" meaning that school's particular zone, the sub-area covered by just that one school inside the district.

You are the one determined to make your point, even though it's not contrasting my actual point but some weird interpretation of something that I didn't even say.

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